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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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    #1622
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised that this may eventually lead to a fracture in the Government?

    I was thinking that yesterday. Greens must feel they are being used as a shield when they have no legacy involvement with the mother and baby homes.

    Leaders questions and the Seanad visit by O'Gorman will be interesting.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #1623
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    John Hutton wrote: »
    County homes were just the old workhouses rebranded. Even worse than the mother and baby homes, often no religious involved.

    Unmarried mothers were used as 'staff' I.e. unpaid and doing the work that should have been done by paid employees looking after elderly, disabled people etc in horrendous conditions. These conditions were down to shameful chronic underfunding. Whatever about the mother and baby homes the state were 100% responsible for the county homes, there can be no argument that the elderly, disabled and destitute were there for religious inspired reasons

    Absolutely the State was the sole agent in the cases you mention. And generally the State has, albeit in a mealy mouthed, obstacle laden, long on emotive short on support way acknowledged it's failures
    I think what sticks in the craw is the failure of the Religious Orders to cough up even the miserly sum they agreed to pay to their victims.

    This sordid series of events around reparation to Magdalene Laundry survivors is typical of how the Religious orders actually act?

    2013 - Post McAleese Report
    The Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, which ran two Laundries in Drumcondra and Seán McDermott Street in Dublin, said it was “with deep regret that we acknowledge that there are women who did not experience our refuge as a place of protection and care”...

    The Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy which ran laundries in Galway and Dún Laoghaire said it ‘fully acknowledged’ the “limitations of the car which could be provided” in their Homes.”...

    The Good Shepherd Sisters – which ran four of the Laundries, including one in Waterford which did not close until 1996 – said it was “part of the system and the culture of the time”...

    The Religious Sisters of Charity said they apologised “unreservedly” to any woman “who experienced hurt while in our care”.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/magdalene-laundries-apologies-783933-Feb2013/

    By 2014
    All four orders, which include The Sisters of Mercy, Sisters of Our Lady of Charity of Refuge, the Good Shepherd Sisters, and the Sisters of Charity have, at various times, publicly refused to contribute financially to the proposed compensation scheme.

    According to recent reports in the Irish press, the four orders, which ran the Magdalene laundries, made almost $415 million in property deals during the Irish economic boom. Given those eye-popping figures, the refusal to offer one thin dime in compensation can be seen in its proper light.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/magdalene-laundries-apologies-783933-Feb2013/
    Claims made by the Vatican in a submission to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) last December were so inaccurate, it prompted Minister for Justice Alan Shatter to write to Rome seeking clarification, The Irish Times has learned.

    The Vatican asserted to the UNCRC that the four religious congregations that ran Magdalene laundries in Ireland were willing to pay part of a compensation scheme developed by the State for women who had been in the laundries.

    However, two of the religious congregations concerned have since repeated their unwillingness to contribute to any compensation scheme for the women.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-misled-un-committee-on-compensation-to-magdalene-women-1.1746416

    We are hearing the same old story -"reflecting society/offering refuge"....."didn't meet our Christian standards" - for 76 years??! - I would suggest those were the institutionalized standards.

    Now the begging bowl is out looking for congregations to help pay - even as the Magdalene survivors are still waiting and Bessborough's possible burial grounds are on the market.

    But...but...The State acted appallingly in it's own right is no defense. The State didn't set itself up as the spokesperson for an omnipotent God and arbitrator of moral standards.


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    #1624
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    The other poster was asking about county homes, so I gave some information... not sure why it prompted that.

    (The religious orders have paid far more than they are legally obliged to btw, not that they shouldn't pay more, morally speaking)


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    #1625
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    John Hutton wrote: »
    The other poster was asking about county homes, so I gave some information... not sure why it prompted that.

    (The religious orders have paid far more than they are legally obliged to btw, not that they shouldn't pay more, morally speaking)

    I can't understand why opposition parties and activist groups are not focusing on the County Homes as well and why weren't they adamant when this Commission was set up that it should include all people affected by all these homes.

    I also cannot understand the mentality of the GOV choosing one over the other and how they actually got away with it.

    Given the terms of reference and the knowledge at the time that the Inquiry would not be adhering to International Human Rights guidelines I can't understand how it got off the ground in the first place.


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    #1626
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    John Hutton wrote: »
    The other poster was asking about county homes, so I gave some information... not sure why it prompted that.

    (The religious orders have paid far more than they are legally obliged to btw, not that they shouldn't pay more, morally speaking)

    What prompted that was cutting off a potential 'whatabout' before it gained traction with apologists - and I am in no way accusing you of being an apologist John.

    As for the Religious Orders, morally they also shouldn't try and reduce the amount women get in redress by disputing their claims (strange how they can remember such details but can't remember where the bodies are buried) - and the State takes the word of the nuns not the victims.
    But that is exactly what happened.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/just-one-maximum-compensation-payout-in-magdalene-scheme-since-expansion-4471494-Feb2019/

    It took until 2019 for the Christian Brother's to fully pay their cash portion of redress for the boys abused in their care. However, at that date they owed twice as much pledged as property - much of it having being transferred to the Edmund Rice Trust (founded 2009 - same year they promised to pay reparations ), that have since paid all their portion in cash but I would like to see where you get this claim that the Religious Orders have paid more than they were legally obliged to - which was a pittance btw - as I cannot find any evidence to support this claim.
    The money was pledged in 2009 after the publication of the Ryan report into institutional abuse. The religious congregations offered property and cash valued at €353m - that offer was later reduced to €226m.

    The Department of Education also said that the amount likely to be achieved under the 2009 voluntary scheme made by religious congregations will be lower than what was offered because some elements were rejected and some property was worth less than it was originally valued for.

    It says that the the revised effective total for 2009 voluntary contributions by the religious congregations is €310m.

    But it it understood that that a figure of less than €310m will actually be realised.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2019/1209/1097887-christian-brothers-redress/

    For comparison taxpayers paid about €1.5bn.


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    #1627
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    @Bannasidhe
    "What prompted that was cutting off a potential 'whatabout' before it gained traction with apologists - and I am in no way accusing you of being an apologist John."

    By Apologists do you mean me?

    I'm not trying to divert attention from the M+B Homes to the County Homes.

    I can't understand why the County Homes and other Institutions weren't included together with the M+B Homes so that the Church and State could be held to account for their part in what happened in them.


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    #1628
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    stockshares wrote: »
    I can't understand why opposition parties and activist groups are not focusing on the County Homes as well and why weren't they adamant when this Commission was set up that it should include all people affected by all these homes.

    I also cannot understand the mentality of the GOV choosing one over the other and how they actually got away with it.

    Given the terms of reference and the knowledge at the time that the Inquiry would not be adhering to International Human Rights guidelines I can't understand how it got off the ground in the first place.

    I can understand it.
    One could equally argue why not include the Laundries and the Industrial Schools?
    Because to do so would make it impossible to fully investigate such an overwhelming amount of material.
    In short - it's too big. There is too much to look at so it gets broken down into manageable chunks.

    State Homes were not the same as Religious run homes - to investigate both at the same time would cause confusion.

    This is not to say the State homes should not be investigated. They deserve to be looked at in their own right. Another cesspit awaits in their records.

    That is also not to say the terms and references of the M&B homes was adequate, given their budget (underspent) and the amount of time it took them they could have look at far more than 14 homes and interviewed a lot more survivors.


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    #1629
    Government buildings
    Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭Government buildings


    How about investigating the treatment of patients in mental hospitals during this time?


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    #1630
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    stockshares wrote: »
    @Bannasidhe
    "What prompted that was cutting off a potential 'whatabout' before it gained traction with apologists - and I am in no way accusing you of being an apologist John."

    By Apologists do you mean me?

    I'm not trying to divert attention from the M+B Homes to the County Homes.

    I can't understand why the County Homes and other Institutions weren't all included together and hold the Church and State to account for their part in what happened in them.

    No.
    I honestly didn't mean you.
    I am just very wary of how even a simple enquiry gets seized on by the Great Defenders - I have been doing this a very very long time sadly :o

    I hope my post re: why not investigate them all together made sense to you.
    Imagine trying to investigate WW1?
    All of it.

    Do you think it's possible to really get in there and uncover all the nuances, lies, propaganda, spin of the whole thing in one investigation/report?

    Better to break it down into manageable chunks - e.g. Western Front/Eastern Front/Non-European and eventually it can all be put together.

    It is 'easier' to look at the Laundries, Schools, M&B homes, County homes etc as 'singular' for the purposes of investigation especially at the early stage when literally the foundations of what happened are being uncovered.

    Eventually they will all be put together as one (at least in the minds of academics - as a grassroots investigation has very much been led by academics across many disciplines, and I include Catherine Corless in that for her peerless research skills ) - and PhD theses will be written that provide more specialised detail.


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    #1631
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Claire Byrne covering the Mother and baby home report now.

    The women appearing on these shows are extremely brave. Unbelievably brave.
    They shouldn't have to do this. Heaping abuse on abuse.

    I don't know why Claire is rushing her. Did she want longer for the briquettes?

    .

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #1632
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No.
    I honestly didn't mean you.
    I am just very wary of how even a simple enquiry gets seized on by the Great Defenders - I have been doing this a very very long time sadly :o

    I hope my post re: why not investigate them all together made sense to you.
    Imagine trying to investigate WW1?
    All of it.

    Do you think it's possible to really get in there and uncover all the nuances, lies, propaganda, spin of the whole thing in one investigation/report?

    Better to break it down into manageable chunks - e.g. Western Front/Eastern Front/Non-European and eventually it can all be put together.

    It is 'easier' to look at the Laundries, Schools, M&B homes, County homes etc as 'singular' for the purposes of investigation especially at the early stage when literally the foundations of what happened are being uncovered.

    Eventually they will all be put together as one (at least in the minds of academics - as a grassroots investigation has very much been led by academics across many disciplines, and I include Catherine Corless in that for her peerless research skills ) - and PhD theses will be written that provide more specialised detail.

    No problem, I just wanted to be sure I was reading your post correctly .

    I understand what your saying about doing it in chunks but the problem is Time.

    Will people who deserve justice get it before they die.


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    #1633
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Claire Byrne covering the Mother and baby home report now.

    The women appearing on these shows are extremely brave. Unbelievably brave.
    They shouldn't have to do this. Heaping abuse on abuse.

    I don't know why Claire is rushing her. Did she want longer for the briquettes?

    .

    I think the Woman's name was Sheila O Byrne, she is one tough Lady.

    I don't know how smashing someone's head off of a wall repeatedly is not evidence of physical abuse or holding someone's head under water isn't abuse.

    She mentioned the Original Mother of Tuam at the end and wondered why the Commission never contacted her to take part in the inquiry . That she is the woman who links it all together .

    It looks more and more like the Commission were selective in who and what they recorded .


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    #1634
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    stockshares wrote: »
    I think the Woman's name was Mary Byrne, she is one tough Lady.

    I don't know how smashing someone's head off of a wall repeatedly is not evidence of physical abuse or holding someone's head under water isn't abuse.

    She mentioned the Original Mother of Tuam at the end and wondered why the Commission never contacted her to take part in the inquiry . That she is the woman who links it all together .

    It looks more and more like the Commission were selective in who and what they recorded .


    Claire seemed to be in a rush at the finish.


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    #1635
    tylercheribini
    Registered Users Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭tylercheribini


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Claire Byrne covering the Mother and baby home report now.

    The women appearing on these shows are extremely brave. Unbelievably brave.
    They shouldn't have to do this. Heaping abuse on abuse.

    I don't know why Claire is rushing her. Did she want longer for the briquettes?

    .

    Yea twas a really poorly editorial decision to segue straight to a "I cant get me chocolate digestives" segment.


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    #1636
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    stockshares wrote: »
    No problem, I just wanted to be sure I was reading your post correctly .

    I understand what your saying about doing it in chunks but the problem is Time.

    Will people who deserve justice get it before they die.

    This all could have started back in the 1990s after the Goldenbridge documentary, but we have not only had decades of govt foot dragging, we have also had ridiculously narrow terms of reference. This latest being another example.
    I have come to believe that there will be no honest attempt to truly get all the facts while either FF or FG are in power.

    It really wouldn't be that difficult to run investigations concurrently, bring in legislation compelling all State agencies and Religious orders (as they were acting in the capacity of agents of the State) to cooperate. Hire post- doc historians, who lets face it are trained to do exactly this kind of digging, and set them to work.

    Look what Corless was able to uncover with zero support. Imagine what she could have done with proper access and funding. We don't need judges looking at this (who it has been suggested have potential costs of redress foremost in their minds), we need historians. No interest in judging, just in uncovering what the evidence says.

    When they are finished the legal eagles can have their look at it.


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    #1637
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Superb piece by Fergus Finlay in Examiner.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40209122.html
    Failure to address Mother and Baby Homes scandal will haunt country for years

    He rips the report and the minister apart. I'll quote extracts later when I get a chance.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #1638
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Superb piece by Fergus Finlay in Examiner.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40209122.html



    He rips the report and the minister apart. I'll quote extracts later when I get a chance.

    It really is an excellent article and I hope TV Media pick up on it and ask him on to give what he says more traction.

    He was really good on the Civil Servants and if he's given airtime it would put some pressure on the Minister to bring forward legislation on Data Rights and Redress and to run it himself.

    He also made the following point which WalshB and the likes could do with reading.

    "A coercive abusive prison, accompanied by indeterminate (and frequently lifelong) emotional and other punishments can never be described as a refuge".


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    #1639
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    This all could have started back in the 1990s after the Goldenbridge documentary, but we have not only had decades of govt foot dragging, we have also had ridiculously narrow terms of reference. This latest being another example.
    I have come to believe that there will be no honest attempt to truly get all the facts while either FF or FG are in power.

    It really wouldn't be that difficult to run investigations concurrently, bring in legislation compelling all State agencies and Religious orders (as they were acting in the capacity of agents of the State) to cooperate. Hire post- doc historians, who lets face it are trained to do exactly this kind of digging, and set them to work.

    Look what Corless was able to uncover with zero support. Imagine what she could have done with proper access and funding. We don't need judges looking at this (who it has been suggested have potential costs of redress foremost in their minds), we need historians. No interest in judging, just in uncovering what the evidence says.

    When they are finished the legal eagles can have their look at it.

    I agree with you.

    It should have been done concurrently usung separate teams.

    I presume then the only limitations would be Finance and Manpower but given what Catherine could do in her own it shows these Commissions in a bad light . Over 5 years and with the money they had they could have done do much more

    It never made sense to me that these Inquiries would be carried out in dribs and drabs.

    There simply is no will to do a full Inquiry into all Institutions.


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    #1640
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    stockshares wrote: »
    I agree with you.

    It should have been done concurrently usung separate teams.

    I presume then the only limitations would be Finance and Manpower but given what Catherine could do in her own it shows these Commissions in a bad light . Over 5 years and with the money they had they could have done do much more

    It never made sense to me that these Inquiries would be carried out in dribs and drabs.

    There simply is no will to do a full Inquiry into all Institutions.

    Post- doc historians would jump at a salary of about €35k pa, pay for vouched expenses like travel, ensure they do not have to pay to access records like Corless did (birth certs/death certs etc) and it really isn't that expensive.

    The latest Commission had a budget of €11 million afaik. Even if we said each researcher would 'cost' 100k (salary, employers prsi etc, expenses) for 'just' 1 million there would have been 10 highly trained and experienced researchers.

    I agree - the will isn't there and I suspect that the reason for this is two fold - the historical involvement of FF and FG as members of govt plus a tension within those parties that on the one hand they did no wrong (offered refuge/different time/reflected society) and the knowledge that the clerical abuse scandal did the seemingly impossible - it finally weakened the grip the RCC had on the throat of Irish society. I think they are terrified of what will emerge and how much damage it will do to them.
    They don't give a monkeys about the survivors any more than their predecessors cared about the victims.


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    #1641
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Post- doc historians would jump at a salary of about €35k pa, pay for vouched expenses like travel, ensure they do not have to pay to access records like Corless did (birth certs/death certs etc) and it really isn't that expensive.

    The latest Commission had a budget of €11 million afaik. Even if we said each researcher would 'cost' 100k (salary, employers prsi etc, expenses) for 'just' 1 million there would have been 10 highly trained and experienced researchers.

    I agree - the will isn't there and I suspect that the reason for this is two fold - the historical involvement of FF and FG as members of govt plus a tension within those parties that on the one hand they did no wrong (offered refuge/different time/reflected society) and the knowledge that the clerical abuse scandal did the seemingly impossible - it finally weakened the grip the RCC had on the throat of Irish society. I think they are terrified of what will emerge and how much damage it will do to them.
    They don't give a monkeys about the survivors any more than their predecessors cared about the victims.

    Would 10 researchers be required per inquiry? There were about 10 listed as members of the current Commission.

    I was actually surprised at how bloated the Commission Membership was.

    Are the researchers selected by the Commission Chair or are they asked to apply for the position?


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    #1642
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    stockshares wrote: »
    Joe Duffy said just now that RTE have contacted the Commission and asked them to remove a section of the report which used one of their Documentaries on Peggy McCarthy as a Source.

    Apparently two RTE Documentaries have been used as Sources in the Report.

    I'll post on this later when I get some specifics.

    This being covered on Joe Duffy now.

    There is a thread on Peggy McCarthys story on Boards which was started in 2018.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108991767

    Here's the Doc itself
    https://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2018/0807/983666-shame-love-in-shame/

    Playwright Tony Guerin who was speaking with Joe is covered below.
    https://www.rte.ie/culture/2018/0817/985742-the-listowel-men-who-defied-the-church-documentary-on-one/

    The Doc won the award below
    The 65th Premios Ondas Awards in Barcelona, the Documentary On One production from RTÉ Radio 1 won 1st prize in the International Radio Award (across all genres of radio)


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    #1643
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Some great discussions on Liveline over the past week. Thankfully these witnesses are still alive to give their accounts. The Peggy McCarthy reference in the report is also wrong it seems.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #1644
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    stockshares wrote: »
    Would 10 researchers be required per inquiry? There were about 10 listed as members of the current Commission.

    I was actually surprised at how bloated the Commission Membership was.

    Are the researchers selected by the Commission Chair or are they asked to apply for the position?

    You assign areas to individual researchers - like Corless 'did' Tuam. Cost and lack of access was a huge issue for her and it delayed her work by years.

    Essentially work out how many institutions need to be investigations across all sectors - Religious Orders, and State - broken down via some agreed method - size/region/type and assign researchers accordingly.
    Some, like Bessborough may need one dedicated person while smaller institutions could be combined and dealt with by one person.

    We have spent millions on three reports - all of them unsatisfactory and all of them taking far too long.

    This latest wall all kicked off by an unpaid historian who painstakingly pieced it all together based on the evidence available. My suggestion is employ historians - and Corless should one one of them - and give them a legal right to access the records and they will produce evidence based reports with sources cited and everything.
    Set a legion of Catherine Corless' on the task and they will uncover a hell of a lot more than any of these Commissions.

    Once that is all in the public domain the legal repercussions etc can be discussed.


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    #1645
    stockshares
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭stockshares


    It's important that homes run by the Protestant Church such as the Bethany Home (covered today on Joe Duffy) are also included in any Inquiries so that Justice is done for the people in those homes also.


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    #1646
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,900 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You assign areas to individual researchers - like Corless 'did' Tuam. Cost and lack of access was a huge issue for her and it delayed her work by years.

    Essentially work out how many institutions need to be investigations across all sectors - Religious Orders, and State - broken down via some agreed method - size/region/type and assign researchers accordingly.
    Some, like Bessborough may need one dedicated person while smaller institutions could be combined and dealt with by one person.

    We have spent millions on three reports - all of them unsatisfactory and all of them taking far too long.

    This latest wall all kicked off by an unpaid historian who painstakingly pieced it all together based on the evidence available. My suggestion is employ historians - and Corless should one one of them - and give them a legal right to access the records and they will produce evidence based reports with sources cited and everything.
    Set a legion of Catherine Corless' on the task and they will uncover a hell of a lot more than any of these Commissions.

    Once that is all in the public domain the legal repercussions etc can be discussed.

    You still need legal support when you inevitably get stonewalled by the organisations looking for documents. That's where the money and time goes.
    Untitled Image




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    #1647
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    You still need legal support when you inevitably get stonewalled by the organisations looking for documents. That's where the money and time goes.


    A Garda forensic unit investigating possible crimes could do this?


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    #1648
    andrewflintoff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 ✭andrewflintoff


    The Children's Minister has focused on reconsidering enactment that could see records of mother and infant homes put past the compass of survivors for a very long time.

    Roderic O'Gorman proposed a change to the proposed enactment which would empower casualties to pick on the off chance that they need their name recorded or to stay unknown.


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    #1649
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,900 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    saabsaab wrote: »
    A Garda forensic unit investigating possible crimes could do this?

    No, you'll be asking for access to documents and you might be legally entitled to them but organisations like the RCC will withold access. You'll need to fight them in court on it and need legal experts, not gardai.
    Untitled Image




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    #1650
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    No, you'll be asking for access to documents and you might be legally entitled to them but organisations like the RCC will withold access. You'll need to fight them in court on it and need legal experts, not gardai.


    So they refuse and send in their lawyers? I guess both are needed.


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    #1651
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    No, you'll be asking for access to documents and you might be legally entitled to them but organisations like the RCC will withold access. You'll need to fight them in court on it and need legal experts, not gardai.

    In cases like that the RCC should be sued for costs also. Might make them think twice about stonewalling.


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