Luas - a system in decline

machaseh · 14-10-2019 3:41pm

Experience_day wrote: »

Tallaght well outside m50 and still quicker! Mental stuff. Not to mention Luas closes at 12:30am so difficult to have a proper night out without hassle of taxi's etc.

12:30 AM is actually pretty late, you can still have plenty of pints then take the last luas home.

If you really wanna stay for a lock in or go to the George or whatever, there is always the Nitelink buses on friday and saturday night.

I never took a taxi all the way to Tallaght when I used to live there.

Experience_day · 14-10-2019 3:50pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.

Used to use the green line its a pleasure in terms of speed compared to red.

machaseh wrote: »

12:30 AM is actually pretty late, you can still have plenty of pints then take the last luas home.

If you really wanna stay for a lock in or go to the George or whatever, there is always the Nitelink buses on friday and saturday night.

I never took a taxi all the way to Tallaght when I used to live there.

Eh, it's not so late? Obviously a proper night out (no george thanks...) is grand, I'm just talking about just missing the luas. Nightbus is a looooong wait.

But regardless I'd put up with that, if the luas time dropped to 30 mins. Would save me so much commuting time!

machaseh · 14-10-2019 4:00pm

Experience_day wrote: »

Used to use the green line its a pleasure in terms of speed compared to red.

Eh, it's not so late? Obviously a proper night out (no george thanks...) is grand, I'm just talking about just missing the luas. Nightbus is a looooong wait.

But regardless I'd put up with that, if the luas time dropped to 30 mins. Would save me so much commuting time!

The nite link goes every hour. 12, 1, 2, 3 AM. If you just plan it a bit you shouldn't have to wait such a long time.

Antares35 · 14-10-2019 4:00pm

Always overcrowded. Assaulted on it once with no justice. Every other day it seems to just randomly turf everyone out at Black Horse. They tell you tickets are valid on Dublin Bus - what buses? The ones driving through Inchicore that are already full? I'd say 70% of users don't pay their fare.

Went back to driving to work some time ago and I don't know myself. I also don't feel in any way bad. You can't encourage people to use public transport when there is a high risk of assault and you miss important meetings on a regular basis because the p*xy thing lets you down again and again.

Antares35 · 14-10-2019 4:04pm

markpb wrote: »

Nice glib answer but it’s busy long before 8:30, especially south of Sandyford.

Longer stops needed to serve longer trams would block some junctions apparently.

Yup. Dropped the OH to the Luas this morning for the 05:55 tram and he didn't get a seat. It had filled before it got to Belgard.

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 4:13pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.

Or walking time at the both stops

heffo500 · 14-10-2019 4:25pm

Would it not have made better sense to have an underground in a loop from Heuston and connecting to Connolly Station, Busaras and on south side pass near Grand Canal Dock & St. Stephen's green? Similar to the Circle line in London. Then have the trams finish at a station of the underground instead of them weaving through the city slowly so Red Line ends at Heuston and Green line maybe ends at Camden Street?

Jamie2k9 · 14-10-2019 4:27pm

machaseh wrote: »

Not yet. But they are building an enormous campus with shops, more offices and residential apartments at Brides glen, as well as various other construction work on the southern portion of the green line.

Within about 5 years from now, we are certainly going to need full LUAS capacity between brides glen and sandyfort. They will need to order new trams and build an extra track or two at the brides glen terminus (shouldn't be that hard to do honestly).

Third platform would deliver nothing. Having 3 trams in B Glen together is pointless. You can operate a 2-3 minute service with two. Before LCC opened it was a case of one in, one out at SSG and rarely were two platforms occupied for more than a minute.

Fleet and driver resources are main reasons freq is lower beyond Sandyford and chances are an updated service review hasn't been carried out given the major changes in last few years.

LollipopJimmy · 14-10-2019 4:42pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fleet and driver resources are main reasons freq is lower beyond Sandyford and chances are an updated service review hasn't been carried out given the major changes in last few years.

Actually one of their reasons for delays in the last wee while has been 'operational reasons' which I take means they are short of drivers. I used to take the first Luas to Bluebell in the mornings and it often didn't show or would show way early so I ended using different methods to get there which caused me hassle.

dowlingm · 14-10-2019 9:48pm

Just popped up on my FB feed
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/1014/1083325-luas-trams/

thenightman · 14-10-2019 10:42pm

Is there any scope to increase the length of Red Line trams? I travel from Red Cow-Heuston at peak times and it's a pitched battle to try and squeeze my way out past the boarding passengers waiting 5 deep on the platform when it reaches Heuston. People sprinting in panic from inside the train station to attempt to get on the tram. I feel embarrassed when tourists witness such shoddiness.

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

Public transport links to the Red Cow station is awful too. Unsheltered bus stop that leaves you walk up a steep hill, yet private cars and taxis get to park next to the platform.

holliehobbie · 14-10-2019 10:45pm

The platforms on the red line are barely long enough for the current trams so they can't be increased in length.

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:53pm

heffo500 wrote: »

Would it not have made better sense to have an underground in a loop from Heuston and connecting to Connolly Station, Busaras and on south side pass near Grand Canal Dock & St. Stephen's green? Similar to the Circle line in London. Then have the trams finish at a station of the underground instead of them weaving through the city slowly so Red Line ends at Heuston and Green line maybe ends at Camden Street?

You're basically describing Dart underground baring the loop. This project has been shelved now. There is a general election coming up soon. Tell the door knockers you want a proper transport network

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:54pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Just popped up on my FB feed
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/1014/1083325-luas-trams/

This is the 5th or 6th time this useless government have announced this

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 10:58pm

thenightman wrote: »

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

Future proofing! Haha you're having a laugh right. Almost every transport project has been neutered before launching to please nimby's or keep the budget down
Same thing is happening with Metrolink

devnull · 15-10-2019 9:20am

thenightman wrote: »

Is there any scope to increase the length of Red Line trams? I travel from Red Cow-Heuston at peak times and it's a pitched battle to try and squeeze my way out past the boarding passengers waiting 5 deep on the platform when it reaches Heuston. People sprinting in panic from inside the train station to attempt to get on the tram. I feel embarrassed when tourists witness such shoddiness.

Where was the future proofing in the design? it was long enough and expensive enough in coming like. Only in bloody Ireland do we build something way over budget and then leave it be for a decade plus and expect things to work fine despite population obviously increasing.

The number of trams, frequency and the length of trams on the Red Line have all been increased since the red line was opened, so it is wrong to say that there was no future proofing because it had some built in but there will always be such limitations of a light rail system above ground.

The problem is with a successful light rail system that has interaction with road junctions there is only so much future proofing you can do as you run out of land to extend platforms or just get trams stuck behind each other in the line and the system becomes a victim of it's own success.

This is why countries use heavy rail and underground because youhave more space to work with via dedicated infrastructure that you don't need to share with other modes for the most part, and it's easier to extend later on. However light rail is generally cheaper so countries often go for that, but the problem is sooner or later you hit a cap on capacity much earlier than on a heavy rail line.

Trams have a place, certainly but the kind of distances the Red and Green lines travel really would be better off as metro or heavy rail with trams used for shorter trips like they are in other cities.

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 9:23am

devnull wrote: »

The number of trams, frequency and the length of trams on the Red Line have all been increased since the red line was opened, so it is wrong to say that there was no future proofing because it had some built in.

The problem is with a successful light rail system that has interaction with road junctions there is only so much future proofing you can do as you run out of land to extend platforms or just get trams stuck behind each other in the line and the system becomes a victim of it's own success.

As far as I knew a few were moved from green to red and that was it, it was also given fairly significant extensions at each end. I could be wrong though?

goingnowhere · 15-10-2019 9:27am

The entire original Green line fleet has been transferred to the Red line. The Red line was originally 30m and were extended to 40m quite early on.

Fattybojangles · 15-10-2019 9:29am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I've been using the Luas a good bit the last 12 months having moved to a City Centre office and tbh it's a complete ****show, every day overcrowded trams are too full to take more passengers. Nearly every day so far in October there have been delays on each line due to signalling faults or failed trams (this doesn't include traffic incidents or protest marches)

Transdev don't seem to care, dept of transport don't care. The system is obviously aging but I dont get why the number of trams in service is so low at any given time, it seems the point of the service is to drive as much profit out of it as possible.

Absolute nonsense and hyperbole theres a luas every 4 minutes or so at peak time how can they do any better than that? and as for the being busy well you're not the only one who works in the city centre get up earlier or walk to a stop further down the line.

devnull · 15-10-2019 9:30am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

As far as I knew a few were moved from green to red and that was it, it was also given fairly significant extensions at each end. I could be wrong though?

26x 30m 3000 series trains, built for the red line were extended to 40m

14x 40m 4000 series trains, built for the green line, moved to the red line on delivery of the 43m 5000 series.

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 9:37am

Fattybojangles wrote: »

Absolute nonsense and hyperbole theres a luas every 4 minutes or so at peak time how can they do any better than that? and as for the being busy well you're not the only one who works in the city centre get up earlier or walk to a stop further down the line.

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

MrMusician18 · 15-10-2019 10:07am

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:09am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

I’ve seen it discussed before. Let’s just leave it at an emphatic “no”!

Could they start turning back every third tram at ssg?

machaseh · 15-10-2019 10:12am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I wonder would there be scope to double deck the trams?

I've been thinking about that too hah. At least for the green line, it wouldn't fit under most of the tunnels and bridges. It would also require overhauling the entire overhead power wire system, not to mention the fact that double decker trams don't exist anywhere else so they would have to be custom made for Dublin which would be too dear.

But it would certainly make for a world-renowned tourist attraction to have double decker trams.

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:13am

https://www.thejournal.ie/longer-green-line-luas-trams-4851094-Oct2019/

machaseh · 15-10-2019 10:26am

Other cities operate double decker trams so hey why not. But they seem to be more old fashioned streetcars rather than modern higher speed trams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-decker_tram

CatInABox · 15-10-2019 10:31am

A double decker tram would have to go much slower for safety purposes, and wouldn't increase capacity on the line by much as a result.

Tchaikovsky · 15-10-2019 10:45am

You'd also have scobes surfing off the back of the top tier and falling.

Idbatterim · 15-10-2019 10:48am

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

You'd also have scobes surfing off the back of the top tier and falling.

And getting a pay out !

machaseh · 15-10-2019 11:13am

The better solution would be to create a third track on the fast portion of the luas green, between sandyford and Harcourt Street. There will probably not be sufficient room to build a third track along the entire route, but passing tracks could be constructed on much of it to allow peak-time Express tram services which would serve limited stops only.

Express trams would stop at:

All stops to Brides Glen
Sandyford
Balally
Dundrum
Ranelagh
Charlemont
Harcourt Street
All stops to Broombridge/Parnell

Meanwhile the services terminating at Sandyford would always serve all stops.

This would also provide extra capacity to make new branches of the green Luas, such as one from Charlemont to Rathfarnham.

devnull · 15-10-2019 12:18pm

CatInABox wrote: »

A double decker tram would have to go much slower for safety purposes, and wouldn't increase capacity on the line by much as a result.

Plus it would have to be shorter and you have the problem of bridges that it's not going to be able to get under, I'm talking about Ballally for a start.

That's before we take into account the fact double decker trams simply aren't made in modern times.

Del.Monte · 15-10-2019 12:27pm

Double deck trams were of their time (1880s-1930s) when speed wasn't the priority. Trams mutated into light rail and if you want to see them the best place is Crich, Derbyshire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eymkg5GfzuA

trellheim · 15-10-2019 1:06pm

Get approx 10 more trams on both Red and Green and run them on Point-Heuston shuttles and SSG->Stillorgan ?

cherryghost · 15-10-2019 2:38pm

Guys don't worry, soon there will be website for LUAS commuters proposing to stagger their commute times with shiny graphs of busy times on a per-stop basis.

Problem solved. It certainly worked for that DART website, whatever-its-called.com

LollipopJimmy · 15-10-2019 7:01pm

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

Today can be added to this list. Delays on the green line 'technical fault'

Spanish Eyes · 15-10-2019 7:39pm

The Luas is OK on the Green Line, purely because it is segregated, mostly following the old Harcourt Street Line.

The Red Line on the other hand is an absolute pain. It takes forever to get into the city. I don't bother after Heuston, so take any of the buses at Heuston from Lucan direction direct down the buslane on the Quays, far, far quicker than the Luas.

Cars and traffic lights interfere with the Luas on the Red Line far too much IMO.

machaseh · 16-10-2019 8:20am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The Luas is OK on the Green Line, purely because it is segregated, mostly following the old Harcourt Street Line.

The Red Line on the other hand is an absolute pain. It takes forever to get into the city. I don't bother after Heuston, so take any of the buses at Heuston from Lucan direction direct down the buslane on the Quays, far, far quicker than the Luas.

Cars and traffic lights interfere with the Luas on the Red Line far too much IMO.

I don't think it's that slow beyond heuston, definitely not slower than getting off the luas at heuston and jumping onto an already full bus that will sit in traffic and stop at every corner.

More could be done to increase speed farther down the line though. For example a LUAS bridge could be constructed to go above the Naas Road / Walkinstown Ave junction as well as the very busy junction at Naas Rd / Long Mile Rd. This would also assist road traffic in the area.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 10:44am

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

See it's due every 4 minutes but the delays from breakdowns are happening daily and the knock on effect is felt for hours after which is the whole point of my post.

I actually looked at it last week and there were breaqkdowns on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th. I've not looked beyond that, each of those were for failed trams, signalling faults or 'operational reasons'. That is across both lines but on 6 of those days there was a failure on both lines. (There were more delays from protest marches but we'll leave that for another day)

If you wouldn't mind poining out the hyperbole and nonsense there I'd appreciate it.

True. Have lost count of the number of times it has terminated and Black Horse and left hundreds of people stranded. It's ok though - you can use your ticket on Dublin bus - the ones that are already full. :P

16-10-2019 10:47am

They should have build it in one continuous loop that never stops,
get the platforms to move at the same speed as the train so you can hop on.
just like a ski lift

The Moldy Gowl · 16-10-2019 10:48am

Antares35 wrote: »

True. Have lost count of the number of times it has terminated and Black Horse and left hundreds of people stranded. It's ok though - you can use your ticket on Dublin bus - the ones that are already full. :P

Has this only happened once in the last month and maybe 1/2 other times in the last 18 months?
I can only remember the last one from a few weeks ago, and a vague memory of another. This is from me getting the luas a few stops down from blackhorse between 8 and 8:30 so they probably had the issue fixed by them.

Antares35 · 16-10-2019 10:51am

The Moldy Gowl wrote: »

Has this only happened once in the last month and maybe 1/2 other times in the last 18 months?
I can only remember the last one from a few weeks ago, and a vague memory of another. This is from me getting the luas a few stops down from blackhorse between 8 and 8:30 so they probably had the issue fixed by them.

I don't know how many times it has happened in the last month because I drive to work now. Certainly it happened enough times (coupled with the assault in broad daylight) while I travelled on it to convince me that driving was the better option. I remember several incidents of being stranded at Kingswood too, where it is difficult to find a bus stop!

LollipopJimmy · 16-10-2019 11:54am

Technical fault on the Green line this morning causing delays

Marcusm · 16-10-2019 2:35pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Double deck trams were of their time (1880s-1930s) when speed wasn't the priority. Trams mutated into light rail and if you want to see them the best place is Crich, Derbyshire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eymkg5GfzuA

The best place to see double decker teams is on Hong Kong island and then to realise how much people have increased in size over the past 100 years!

heffo500 · 17-10-2019 9:59am

devnull wrote: »

The number of trams, frequency and the length of trams on the Red Line have all been increased since the red line was opened, so it is wrong to say that there was no future proofing because it had some built in but there will always be such limitations of a light rail system above ground.

The problem is with a successful light rail system that has interaction with road junctions there is only so much future proofing you can do as you run out of land to extend platforms or just get trams stuck behind each other in the line and the system becomes a victim of it's own success.

This is why countries use heavy rail and underground because youhave more space to work with via dedicated infrastructure that you don't need to share with other modes for the most part, and it's easier to extend later on. However light rail is generally cheaper so countries often go for that, but the problem is sooner or later you hit a cap on capacity much earlier than on a heavy rail line.

Trams have a place, certainly but the kind of distances the Red and Green lines travel really would be better off as metro or heavy rail with trams used for shorter trips like they are in other cities.

I think the red line would be drastically improved if they used the extra platform at Heuston to have a tram continuously go from there to Connolly. Anyone going further stays on the main platform and anyone going as far as Connolly takes the other tram.

There also needs to be a crowd management system implemented at Heuston as it is dangerous with the queues four deep and everyone constantly pushing and giving people barely any room to get off which is also slowing the whole process.

Technocentral · 17-10-2019 11:48am

Great service, use red line every day love it, Ireland full of whingers.

machaseh · 17-10-2019 12:01pm

heffo500 wrote: »

I think the red line would be drastically improved if they used the extra platform at Heuston to have a tram continuously go from there to Connolly. Anyone going further stays on the main platform and anyone going as far as Connolly takes the other tram.

There also needs to be a crowd management system implemented at Heuston as it is dangerous with the queues four deep and everyone constantly pushing and giving people barely any room to get off which is also slowing the whole process.

Irish people have a very very bad discipline in letting people off first before entering the tram. In this sense they are way ruder and worse behaved than in my own country (netherlands) where we always let people off the train before we enter.

You can't change the mind of the people but what you could do is make EXIT ONLY tram doors which could be enforced with a little turnstyle and an exit only sign or whatever. This would allow people to get off the tram more easily during rush hour. The people entering can do so at the other doors.

loyatemu · 17-10-2019 12:15pm

used the Red Line today from Naas Rd into town, it was impressively packed. Some people got on at Heuston but a lot were left behind (though there was another tram 2 mins behind). What happened to the Heuston-Connolly shuttles?

The section from Heuston to Connolly is stupidly slow - the only place you could argue the Luas shouldn't have full priority is O'Connell St because of the volume of buses and the other Luas line, everywhere else it should have absolute priority. Museum, Smithfield and Four Courts stops are also ridiculously close together. Why spend 100s of millions on a tram system to have it sit at traffic lights while cars and half-empty buses go by.

machaseh · 17-10-2019 12:53pm

loyatemu wrote: »

used the Red Line today from Naas Rd into town, it was impressively packed. Some people got on at Heuston but a lot were left behind (though there was another tram 2 mins behind). What happened to the Heuston-Connolly shuttles?

The section from Heuston to Connolly is stupidly slow - the only place you could argue the Luas shouldn't have full priority is O'Connell St because of the volume of buses and the other Luas line, everywhere else it should have absolute priority.

And Amiens street at conolly station, you can also not possibly avoid having the luas wait there due to the enormous volumes of buses.

You could potentially consider just deleting the Four Courts stop. People can walk to Smithfield or Jervis stops instead, or use the many buses along the Quays which are right besides it. I don't think Museum is particularly close enough to Heuston to justify removing it, plus it serves, well, the museum.

aivilo · 17-10-2019 11:21pm

Mr.S wrote: »

I think it's also worth saying that the overcrowding has always been an issue during rush hour, since it launched - it's not a new issue!

No it's gotten much worse the last year in particular. I have used the red line since it opened. It's bordering on Dangerous now at rush hour.

aivilo · 17-10-2019 11:26pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin but used the Luas recently while in the city.

It was overfull to the point of being a health hazard, people were shoved up against the wall and everything. At one point a pedestrian ran out in front of the Luas causing the driver to slam on the brakes and for it to come to a sudden stop. Everyone fell backwards, some people on top of each other, piling up on the floor.
A couple of people were hurt but not badly and everyone got a fright.
I wouldn't be particularly claustraphobic but I was shaking getting off it. Its dangerous at those capacities and someone is going to get badly hurt one of these days.

This overcrowding happens daily now on the red line.

Luas - a system in decline

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