The Strike is over. What happens now?

wrangler · 24-09-2019 7:55am

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Notting to do with beef plan. You are so brainwashed by the IFA it's unbelievable.

The deal won't deliver €100m in five years, if it ever does, yet they still think they can boast, you must be brainwashed not to see how poor the whole thing is and what it cost farmers.

foundation10 · 24-09-2019 9:11am

wrangler wrote: »

I wonder when are Beef Plan going to challenge the Tax free land leases or 90% discount of farm transfers, are they working for revenue or what

Why would they want to challenge this?

Fedlot · 24-09-2019 9:29am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Its not the price to build the factory that is the issue. In general cattle slaughtered on the day are paid on the day( or at least the cheque is posted 24-48 hours later. If cattle are hung for 21 days and then packaged you are looking at 21+ days storage. Retailers look for 90 days credit. In essence yoy are looking at carrying stock for 4 months. For a processor slaughtering 500 cattle/day you are looking at 40-60 million in capital to hold stock

Yes the vat is entirely legal at present. However the Irish Government could change the rules at ant stage. For Processors feedlots slaughtering 80K cattle over the year its worth approx 5.5 million. For a larger feedlot killing 3k cattle over a winter,it worth over 200K. There is no way these business have that sort of vat issue.

Overall it wouldn’t be as much as 5.5m. Not without fiddling the books anyway. 5.5m would be the actual vat on their sales but then you would have to take off the vat they can’t get back and compare the figure to what it would be if they were registered . Only guessing but More like €2-2.5m with 80,000 cattle I’d say or about a 4% extra bonus payment per animal. —Feedlot bonus, lol ðŸ˜³ - Maybe govt should give a grassland bonus to match it.

CloughCasey1 · 24-09-2019 9:35am

wrangler wrote: »

The deal won't deliver €100m in five years, if it ever does, yet they still think they can boast, you must be brainwashed not to see how poor the whole thing is and what it cost farmers.

It's the blue tablet in the morning Rangler. Red ones are for evenings. I dont know what colour the IFA tablets are but you are clearly high on those.

K.G. · 24-09-2019 9:42am

I suspect the reason this hasnt been changed is it is acting as an effective subsidy to the poultry industry and to change it now would put that industry under enormous pressure.the beef lads are just piggybacking on it but i think they could do fine without it

wrangler · 24-09-2019 10:05am

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

It's the blue tablet in the morning Rangler. Red ones are for evenings. I dont know what colour the IFA tablets are but you are clearly high on those.

I said three months ago that producers groups aren't simple, todays Indo says your one is in trouble already and they're running to teacher

Bass Reeves · 24-09-2019 10:34am

wrangler wrote: »

I wonder when are Beef Plan going to challenge the Tax free land leases or 90% discount of farm transfers, are they working for revenue or what

Totally different tax reliefs but either are little value to commercial farmers in reality. One drives up the prices of leases and both drive up the value of land.

wrangler wrote: »

The deal won't deliver €100m in five years, if it ever does, yet they still think they can boast, you must be brainwashed not to see how poor the whole thing is and what it cost farmers.

Well from the journal the present deal is worth 23 million/year to farmers. If we factor in that the price would be 3-3.3/kg if no protest. If we factor in that it keep cattle prices up by 20c/kg for the next 3 months it worth 45 million. That gives a total of 68 million. Only 70 million of the Beam scheme was taken up and it was a selective scheme. Some will be clawed back in penalties so it worth much the same as the Beam scheme.

yosemitesam1 · 24-09-2019 10:48am

K.G. wrote: »

I suspect the reason this hasnt been changed is it is acting as an effective subsidy to the poultry industry and to change it now would put that industry under enormous pressure.the beef lads are just piggybacking on it but i think they could do fine without it

It could probably be argued in the case of beef that big finishers getting the vat means that a higher price is passed back through the weanling/store producer, a certain amount of vat value would have been accumulated per head by the time it's sent for finishing.
Pigs/poultry wouldn't have that

Edit. Mart prices include vat, so there's about €10-20 a head in vat for the finisher before any of their own vat expenses

wrangler · 24-09-2019 10:55am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Totally different tax reliefs but either are little value to commercial farmers in reality. One drives up the prices of leases and both drive up the value of land.

Well from the journal the present deal is worth 23 million/year to farmers. If we factor in that the price would be 3-3.3/kg if no protest. If we factor in that it keep cattle prices up by 20c/kg for the next 3 months it worth 45 million. That gives a total of 68 million. Only 70 million of the Beam scheme was taken up and it was a selective scheme. Some will be clawed back in penalties so it worth much the same as the Beam scheme.

A lot of ifs there, protests have cost sheep farmers the most of half a million and no ifs, there's a massive price drop in England this week which can only aggravate the situation here........but then sure I flagged that situation on here months ago but you wouldn't let sheep be killed

Panch18 · 24-09-2019 11:28am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It could probably be argued in the case of beef that big finishers getting the vat means that a higher price is passed back through the weanling/store producer, a certain amount of vat value would have been accumulated per head by the time it's sent for finishing.
Pigs/poultry wouldn't have that

Edit. Mart prices include vat, so there's about €10-20 a head in vat for the finisher before any of their own vat expenses

I would go as far as to say that all of that vat is being passed back to weanling/store producers. So i suppose if this VAT change is pushed through then we can expect weanlings/stores to fall by what 10-20 a head?

Bass Reeves · 24-09-2019 12:51pm

Panch18 wrote: »

I would go as far as to say that all of that vat is being passed back to weanling/store producers. So i suppose if this VAT change is pushed through then we can expect weanlings/stores to fall by what 10-20 a head?

I am always amazed the way lads try to make out that all these little bits are passed back to the store/weanling producer. Money from funds like BEAM, vat, the extra 20c/kg to mid sized finishers, the extra in contracted prices to feedlot or processor owned feedlot producing beef at a loss etc etc...

All of these things are skewing competition around the ring. It gives a competitive advantage to minority of buyers that would struggle with there costs to compete against the majority of producers. It allows processors to control prices which in the long term as we have seen over the last five years reduces prices to other smaller sized finishers and this then reduces prices to store/weanling producers.

wrangler · 24-09-2019 12:59pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am always amazed the way lads try to make out that all these little bits are passed back to the store/weanling producer. Money from funds like BEAM, vat, the extra 20c/kg to mid sized finishers, the extra in contracted prices to feedlot or processor owned feedlot producing beef at a loss etc etc...

All of these things are skewing competition around the ring. It gives a competitive advantage to minority of buyers that would struggle with there costs to compete against the majority of producers. It allows processors to control prices which in the long term as we have seen over the last five years reduces prices to other smaller sized finishers and this then reduces prices to store/weanling producers.

Subsidies have been distorting trade for a long time now, and if beef cattle go up €100 farmers will give a lot more than €100 extra for the stores.

yosemitesam1 · 24-09-2019 1:09pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am always amazed the way lads try to make out that all these little bits are passed back to the store/weanling producer. Money from funds like BEAM, vat, the extra 20c/kg to mid sized finishers, the extra in contracted prices to feedlot or processor owned feedlot producing beef at a loss etc etc...

All of these things are skewing competition around the ring. It gives a competitive advantage to minority of buyers that would struggle with there costs to compete against the majority of producers. It allows processors to control prices which in the long term as we have seen over the last five years reduces prices to other smaller sized finishers and this then reduces prices to store/weanling producers.

10-20 euro a head advantage because of vat is nothing in the greater scheme of things and isn't really of any advantage. Would be surprised if all the feedlots were setup to try and take advantage of it as it's probably less than that when everything is taken into account.
The extra money to some finishers is purely for them cooperating with the factories. If the new producer groups want to get premiums they will have to offer some benefit by guaranteeing x head at x spec in advance. They won't be able to get a premium price by just dumping in whatever numbers and quality cattle they want whenever suits them

wrangler · 24-09-2019 1:26pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

10-20 euro a head advantage because of vat is nothing in the greater scheme of things and isn't really of any advantage. Would be surprised if all the feedlots were setup to try and take advantage of it as it's probably less than that when everything is taken into account.
The extra money to some finishers is purely for them cooperating with the factories. If the new producer groups want to get premiums they will have to offer some benefit by guaranteeing x head at x spec in advance. They won't be able to get a premium price by just dumping in whatever numbers and quality cattle they want whenever suits them

Processors will be slow to drop their links with their agents too, especially those with feedlots, agents have built up strong relationships with farmers that will be slow to change......... for Beef Plan now it'll be the same as breaking into a market,

24-09-2019 1:44pm

wrangler wrote: »

Subsidies have been distorting trade for a long time now, and if beef cattle go up €100 farmers will give a lot more than €100 extra for the stores.

We also forgotten why subsidies were introduced in the first place , ie to compensate farmers for lower prices

Base price · 24-09-2019 2:35pm

Welsh farmers to blockade Irish trucks carry beef into the UK at Holyhead port.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/welsh-farmers-plan-to-blockade-trucks-of-cheap-irish-beef-496643

wrangler · 24-09-2019 2:41pm

Base price wrote: »

Welsh farmers to blockade Irish trucks carry beef into the UK at Holyhead port.
https://www.farmersjournal.ie/welsh-farmers-plan-to-blockade-trucks-of-cheap-irish-beef-496643

I was surprised they didn't throw Irish beef into the sea years ago, we are their Brazilian beef.
There won't be many cattle killed if it can't go to England

farisfat · 24-09-2019 4:29pm

wrangler wrote: »

I was surprised they didn't throw Irish beef into the sea years ago, we are their Brazilian beef.
There won't be many cattle killed if it can't go to England

They did throw it in around 20 years ago.

mr.stonewall · 24-09-2019 8:27pm

Got a reply from the competition authority to a letter I sent a few weeks ago. I feel there is a lot of eyes now focused on the factories at the moment, from a load of different angles, politians, farmers, media and other state bodies. All have to be seen to deliver something over the coming months.

wrangler · 24-09-2019 9:11pm

farisfat wrote: »

They did throw it in around 20 years ago.

I don't remember that.
Processors must be right pissed now....they can't get all their workers back either

K9 · 24-09-2019 9:21pm

wrangler wrote: »

I don't remember that.
Processors must be right pissed now....they can't get all their workers back either

Was talking to vet last week, said few of the meat boners went home when laid off and weren’t going to come back

Reggie. · 24-09-2019 9:56pm

K9 wrote: »

Was talking to vet last week, said few of the meat boners went home when laid off and weren’t going to come back

Great to see the factories getting hardship for a change

kk.man · 24-09-2019 10:05pm

wrangler wrote: »

Processors will be slow to drop their links with their agents too, especially those with feedlots, agents have built up strong relationships with farmers that will be slow to change......... for Beef Plan now it'll be the same as breaking into a market,

I know one of Larry's plants has dropped all agents. If you want cattle booked in you go through the production managers. They have skimmed the hauliers too.
This upped the ire of a group who were pro factory and wouldn't normally support the protesters.
I heard this plant was going to be a prototype for the rest.

MIKEKC · 24-09-2019 10:21pm

Reggie. wrote: »

Great to see the factories getting hardship for a change

If factories are short of boners less cattle will be processed. Who will have the hardship then?

Muckit · 24-09-2019 10:34pm

Are lads finding if hard to get cattle killed?

CloughCasey1 · 24-09-2019 10:41pm

Muckit wrote: »

Are lads finding if hard to get cattle killed?

Smaller lads like ourselves will be ignored for at least the next 3 weeks.

Cavanjack · 24-09-2019 10:44pm

Have cattle going Thursday. They were booked in two weeks ago so happy enough to get them away this quick ( although another 30cent wouldn’t have done any harm).

Dunedin · 24-09-2019 10:44pm

wrangler wrote: »

Processors must be right pissed now....they can't get all their workers back either

I’d say more to do with the poor conditions they had. When the workers were temporarily laid off, they saw it as a blessing and stayed out.

Tileman · 24-09-2019 10:54pm

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Got a reply from the competition authority to a letter I sent a few weeks ago. I feel there is a lot of eyes now focused on the factories at the moment, from a load of different angles, politians, farmers, media and other state bodies. All have to be seen to deliver something over the coming months.

Good to hear. What was the jist of their reply?

Panch18 · 24-09-2019 10:56pm

kk.man wrote: »

I know one of Larry's plants has dropped all agents. If you want cattle booked in you go through the production managers. They have skimmed the hauliers too.
This upped the ire of a group who were pro factory and wouldn't normally support the protesters.
I heard this plant was going to be a prototype for the rest.

Which one of Larry’s Dropped the agents?

Keep Sluicing · 24-09-2019 11:00pm

Muckit wrote: »

Are lads finding if hard to get cattle killed?

Ive 8 to go. Rang my agent on Monday. He could take them next Monday/Tuesday. They were prioritising AA, He and cull cows this week.

jimmydkid · 24-09-2019 11:07pm

Muckit wrote: »

Are lads finding if hard to get cattle killed?

I have three heifers ready to go, I rang the agent yesterday and they are going on Thursday morning.

mf240 · 24-09-2019 11:15pm

I don't think there's a backlog of cattle at all.
Think brexit is going to be kicked down the road another bit now too

Anto_Meath · 24-09-2019 11:16pm

I would guess the MODs on this site are happy its all over. I would say there was steam leaving their PCs at the rate posts were going up and cards been given out at various stages over the last few weeks.
Talking to lads in the mart tonight and there is resentment between some farmers, be it lads on the pickets who feel they werent supported and lads who feel nothing was achived only it delayed them getting their cattle killed... are they maybe 10 cent a kg better off maybe but they would be out it on feed.
Plus the light weanlings are probably making more than they were last year. Seen upon to €900 free & ready tonight for calves in around 320 -350 kgs. Yet anything around 450kgs getting it hard to make €900.

gerryirl · 24-09-2019 11:18pm

mf240 wrote: »

I don't think there's a backlog of cattle at all.
Think brexit is going to be kicked down the road another bit now too

That brexit is a bit like a bad tooth.. you know it'll have to pulled at some stage and your rather get it over and done with

MfMan · 24-09-2019 11:52pm

[HTML][/HTML]

gerryirl wrote: »

That brexit is a bit like a bad tooth.. you know it'll have to pulled at some stage and your rather get it over and done with

No. Keep putting it off for as long as possible. Then, some bright day, the British electorate might wake up to the fact that it's really a jolly bad idea after all. (I think the majority are in favour of Remain now anyway.) More and more coming to the opinion that it will not happen. Parliament currently will not stand for No-Deal, equally there's no majority for any kind of compromise deal. Ergo, quite possibly A50 could be revoked.

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2019 12:04am

wrangler wrote: »

I don't remember that.
Processors must be right pissed now....they can't get all their workers back either

It called the law of unintended consequences. It happenes when you think you are completely in control of a situation and fail to consider the consequences of your actions. The processor's were way to smart for there own good. Now everyove they make will be monitored and checked by someone.

Water John · 25-09-2019 12:10am

The lighter weanling, below 350kg is going for live export, hence the price.

kk.man · 25-09-2019 12:15am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It called the law of unintended consequences. It happenes when you think you are completely in control of a situation and fail to consider the consequences of your actions. The processor's were way to smart for there own good. Now everyove they make will be monitored and checked by someone.

I completely agree. They got it not wrong but very wrong on many fronts. I'd say if they could turn back the clock they would do things completely different.

Good loser · 25-09-2019 12:53am

The most stupid action by the strikers must surely have been the stopping of the fridges leaving the plants.
The very best position to be in when the strike finished (for everybody) would surely have been to have all the coldrooms empty of product.

Never wrestle with pigs · 25-09-2019 2:23am

Good loser wrote: »

The most stupid action by the strikers must surely have been the stopping of the fridges leaving the plants.
The very best position to be in when the strike finished (for everybody) would surely have been to have all the coldrooms empty of product.

Wrong, that's what happened with the first protest and it was death of a thousand paper cuts. Second time around a few days later and lock all the fridges into the factory and they are on their knees in a few days. If I was to go again I wouldn't bother stopping cattle agin just fridges. Factory would be blocked up with beef and nowhere to go with it after a day or so.

wrangler · 25-09-2019 7:36am

Dunedin wrote: »

I’d say more to do with the poor conditions they had. When the workers were temporarily laid off, they saw it as a blessing and stayed out.

They'll get lots of applicants, it's a way of getting into the country. return to full production will be delayed which is a bigger problem for farmers than factories

wrangler · 25-09-2019 7:46am

kk.man wrote: »

I know one of Larry's plants has dropped all agents. If you want cattle booked in you go through the production managers. They have skimmed the hauliers too.
This upped the ire of a group who were pro factory and wouldn't normally support the protesters.
I heard this plant was going to be a prototype for the rest.

They did that before too, but it didn't go on for long.
They're being bombarded with cattle at the moment,
production manager will handle the pleading better/
There's an agent near here that controls a lot of cattle,
he won't be left out too long

Keep Sluicing · 25-09-2019 7:57am

wrangler wrote: »

They did that before too, but it didn't go on for long.
They're being bombarded with cattle at the moment,
production manager will handle the pleading better/
There's an agent near here that controls a lot of cattle,
he won't be left out too long

They don't seem to be bombarded with cattle in the 2 factorys i normally deal with in Co. Cork. It all seems very realaxed. A "shur, we can send them in next week or the week after, what ever ya want yerself" attitude

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2019 8:05am

Keep Sluicing wrote: »

They don't seem to be bombarded with cattle in the 2 factorys i normally deal with in Co. Cork. It all seems very realaxed. A "shur, we can send them in next week or the week after, what ever ya want yerself" attitude

If you have goodish land and are not overstocked there is now no rush with cattle unless going over age. Any cattle gone overage can throw on weight. Lads whinging about losing the QA are not factoring in the extra weight, Animals on a few nuts are putting on a kg/day LW or 0.6-0.7kgs of DW/day or over 2 euro/day. That is 15 euro/week.

Robson99 · 25-09-2019 8:32am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you have goodish land and are not overstocked there is now no rush with cattle unless going over age. Any cattle gone overage can throw on weight. Lads whinging about losing the QA are not factoring in the extra weight, Animals on a few nuts are putting on a kg/day LW or 0.6-0.7kgs of DW/day or over 2 euro/day. That is 15 euro/week.

I agree Bass.
Only problem here in the West is ground conditions and grass quality have deteriorated rapidly over the last few days. Have plenty of grass but poor quality and 650kg cattle on it not helping matters
Think I will house them and push them on inside for 6 or 8 weeks

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2019 8:49am

Robson99 wrote: »

I agree Bass.
Only problem here in the West is ground conditions and grass quality have deteriorated rapidly over the last few days. Have plenty of grass but poor quality and 650kg cattle on it not helping matters
Think I will house them and push them on inside for 6 or 8 weeks

I am not sure if that will pay you unless they are not FS2+/3. If there FS is ok I be moving them on. Hosing and feeding will drive costs to 3 euro/day

Dunedin · 25-09-2019 9:29am

wrangler wrote: »

They'll get lots of applicants, it's a way of getting into the country. return to full production will be delayed which is a bigger problem for farmers than factories

Getting applicants is different than retaining what you have which should be the test of a good employer.

Why would they need to rely on workers from overseas that are not from the EU?????

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2019 9:38am

Dunedin wrote: »

Getting applicants is different than retaining what you have which should be the test of a good employer.

Why would they need to rely on workers from overseas that are not from the EU?????

Its pays the minimum or virtually minimum wage on the production lines. Boning is a skilled trade whatever about other actions along the line. Part of this is the retailers. Towards the end of the Celtic Tiger the big retailers in the UK wanted the processors to move all activity north of the border as minimun wage was lower there.

Not all lads are from outside the EU a lot are from Eastern Europe. Those from outside the EU would have there permits held by the processors I assume. Its the EU nations working in the factories that have got work elsewhere I assume

Water John · 25-09-2019 9:39am

Workers are from Brazil and East Timor. Tied by work visa to the employer, stays in accommodation owned/sourced by the employer and a lot of their wages pulled back that way. Just above indentured slavery.

The Strike is over. What happens now?

Comments