Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

wrangler · 19-11-2019 2:05pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Darragh McCullough what he had penned today in the FI is part of what we discussed about the IFA leadership campaign.

If he read the IFA cap reform 2020 submission he'd see we're lobbying for an increase in CAP.
Hence the upwards only convergence

IFA key principles on CAP 2020 proposals

Budget The CAP Budget must be increased
Farm incomes Direct payments must be protected
Farm schemes Strongly funded farm schemes are essential
Simplification Bureaucracy and inspections must be reduced
Market supports EU Market supports must be maintained
Young farmers We need to encourage generational renewal
Active farmers Direct payments should go only to active farmers

Panch18 · 19-11-2019 2:07pm

wrangler wrote: »

If the read the IFA cap reform 2020 submission he'd see we're lobbying for an increase in CAP.

IFA key principles on CAP 2020 proposals

Budget The CAP Budget must be increased
Farm incomes Direct payments must be protected
Farm schemes Strongly funded farm schemes are essential
Simplification Bureaucracy and inspections must be reduced
Market supports EU Market supports must be maintained
Young farmers We need to encourage generational renewal
Active farmers Direct payments should go only to active farmers

He's a jackass - but a dangerous jackass because he has a public voice and the ear of the public.

wrangler · 19-11-2019 2:29pm

Panch18 wrote: »

He's a jackass - but a dangerous jackass because he has a public voice and the ear of the public.

He's a failed farmer, he'd never have thought up that article only he copied it off bass's posts.
Hopefully he's still reading here, he might cop on

Panch18 · 19-11-2019 2:30pm

wrangler wrote: »

He's a failed farmer, he'd never have thought up that article only he copied it off bass's posts.
Hopefully he's still reading here, he might cop on

Oh an absolute failure as a farmer

What did he copy from here?

wrangler · 19-11-2019 2:40pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Oh an absolute failure as a farmer

What did he copy from here?

Bass was criticising the presidential candidates for proposing upwards only converging which is impossible if the budget is reduced, however we're pushing for an increase in CAP.
In lobbying you always have to act positive whether you believe it or not

Bass Reeves · 19-11-2019 3:37pm

As Keyser Soza told the police the biggest lie the Devil ever perputated was to make people believe he did not exist.

So according to these potential great Furhers they have us believe that they can over the next four years at least double the money going into the BPS payments. Bookie's will give you 1000/1 on that one and at least 10-1 that there will be any increase in the overall BPS budget. They give 1-10 at best even if they would take a bet on it that the pot will shrink by at least 10%.

Whether we like it or not there will be no credits for hedgerows or grassland. The present method of measuring Carbon is an international agreement we may not like it but it will not change not in the next 4-5 years anyway no matter what the Muppets do.

No point in blaming Darragh McCullough or insulting him either. You deal with the reality that is out there not muppet ( sorry fairy)tales

Panch18 · 19-11-2019 3:58pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As Keyser Soza told the police the biggest lie the Devil ever perputated was to make people believe he did not exist.

So according to these potential great Furhers they have us believe that they can over the next four years at least double the money going into the BPS payments. Bookie's will give you 1000/1 on that one and at least 10-1 that there will be any increase in the overall BPS budget. They give 1-10 at best even if they would take a bet on it that the pot will shrink by at least 10%.

Whether we like it or not there will be no credits for hedgerows or grassland. The present method of measuring Carbon is an international agreement we may not like it but it will not change not in the next 4-5 years anyway no matter what the Muppets do.

No point in blaming Darragh McCullough or insulting him either. You deal with the reality that is out there not muppet ( sorry fairy)tales

Ah if you're a shirking violet who is afraid to say boo to anybody then the 1 thing that is 1 thousand % guaranteed is that you'll get taken to the cleaners

You seem happy enough that we just sit back and don't fight to get extra money (which if we maintain what we have is an achievement) or forget about credits for grassland and hedgerows because someone somewhere said so.

We need to fight for absolutely every penny we can get from Europe, because we are going to need every single penny we get.
We need to stand up to absolutely every climate change and vegan propagandist and fight them tooth and nail with everything we have or else we won't have anything to fight for in 10 years

Irish farming hasn't faced challenges like it currently faces in the past 50 years, maybe these are even the biggest challenges we have faced. So we need to fight like we have never fought before - and having jackasses like McCullough writing rubbish on the front of a national newspaper doesn't help anybody. if we were all as cowardly as him then we wouldn't have an agri industry in Ireland

Panch18 · 19-11-2019 4:00pm

An McCullough if you are reading on here - why don't you join up and defend your position. You are well able to write on the Indo where your opinion is unquestioned and you can write what you like - so if you have something to say then you better be able to defend what you have written

wrangler · 19-11-2019 4:39pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As Keyser Soza told the police the biggest lie the Devil ever perputated was to make people believe he did not exist.

So according to these potential great Furhers they have us believe that they can over the next four years at least double the money going into the BPS payments. Bookie's will give you 1000/1 on that one and at least 10-1 that there will be any increase in the overall BPS budget. They give 1-10 at best even if they would take a bet on it that the pot will shrink by at least 10%.

Whether we like it or not there will be no credits for hedgerows or grassland. The present method of measuring Carbon is an international agreement we may not like it but it will not change not in the next 4-5 years anyway no matter what the Muppets do.

No point in blaming Darragh McCullough or insulting him either. You deal with the reality that is out there not muppet ( sorry fairy)tales

And if you were at the meeting with commisioner Ciolos in Ardee before the last CAP Reform you would have guaranteed me that we'd be on a flat payment from then on, yet we are where we are, with me getting €400/HA more than he threatened or €100000+ since then , forgive me for believing in fairy tales so

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0921/338550-ifa-warns-eu-commissioner-on-issue-over-reforms/

Mooooo · 19-11-2019 4:46pm

Grassland/ crops use of CO2 and hedgrows not being included in overall calculations is a load of bollox tbh. People ****e on about Norway then with there green ways and they exporting 24billion of oil to the UK alone. The whole thing is nothing but pure and utter hypocrisy

Panch18 · 19-11-2019 5:09pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Grassland/ crops use of CO2 and hedgrows not being included in overall calculations is a load of bollox tbh. People ****e on about Norway then with there green ways and they exporting 24billion of oil to the UK alone. The whole thing is nothing but pure and utter hypocrisy

Well said - pure and utter hypocrisy. and while farmers stand there all quiet and meek then the s##t will keep getting thrown at us, no matter if it 's right, wrong or indifferent

jaymla627 · 19-11-2019 5:55pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Grassland/ crops use of CO2 and hedgrows not being included in overall calculations is a load of bollox tbh. People ****e on about Norway then with there green ways and they exporting 24billion of oil to the UK alone. The whole thing is nothing but pure and utter hypocrisy

The derrybrien windfarm fiasco and the fact the government still have sorted it, with the EU forced to act says it all, the prick from EPA would be better of sorting a serious issue like the above out first in the indepenant today then waffling on about farmers, but given theirs such inaction someone in high places must have money invested in it, farmers need to forget about going by whatever bat**** crazy rulebook is drawn up, forget about getting the dole from Europe and just farm the land

Bass Reeves · 20-11-2019 1:25am

Panch18 wrote: »

The sooner they take the pen and microphone from McCullough the better for everybody involved in farming

wrangler wrote: »

If he read the IFA cap reform 2020 submission he'd see we're lobbying for an increase in CAP.
Hence the upwards only convergence

IFA key principles on CAP 2020 proposals

Budget The CAP Budget must be increased
Farm incomes Direct payments must be protected
Farm schemes Strongly funded farm schemes are essential
Simplification Bureaucracy and inspections must be reduced
Market supports EU Market supports must be maintained
Young farmers We need to encourage generational renewal
Active farmers Direct payments should go only to active farmers

Panch18 wrote: »

He's a jackass - but a dangerous jackass because he has a public voice and the ear of the public.

wrangler wrote: »

He's a failed farmer, he'd never have thought up that article only he copied it off bass's posts.
Hopefully he's still reading here, he might cop on

Panch18 wrote: »

Oh an absolute failure as a farmer

What did he copy from here?

wrangler wrote: »

Bass was criticising the presidential candidates for proposing upwards only converging which is impossible if the budget is reduced, however we're pushing for an increase in CAP.
In lobbying you always have to act positive whether you believe it or not

Panch18 wrote: »

Ah if you're a shirking violet who is afraid to say boo to anybody then the 1 thing that is 1 thousand % guaranteed is that you'll get taken to the cleaners

You seem happy enough that we just sit back and don't fight to get extra money (which if we maintain what we have is an achievement) or forget about credits for grassland and hedgerows because someone somewhere said so.

We need to fight for absolutely every penny we can get from Europe, because we are going to need every single penny we get.
We need to stand up to absolutely every climate change and vegan propagandist and fight them tooth and nail with everything we have or else we won't have anything to fight for in 10 years

Irish farming hasn't faced challenges like it currently faces in the past 50 years, maybe these are even the biggest challenges we have faced. So we need to fight like we have never fought before - and having jackasses like McCullough writing rubbish on the front of a national newspaper doesn't help anybody. if we were all as cowardly as him then we wouldn't have an agri industry in Ireland

Panch18 wrote: »

An McCullough if you are reading on here - why don't you join up and defend your position. You are well able to write on the Indo where your opinion is unquestioned and you can write what you like - so if you have something to say then you better be able to defend what you have written

wrangler wrote: »

And if you were at the meeting with commisioner Ciolos in Ardee before the last CAP Reform you would have guaranteed me that we'd be on a flat payment from then on, yet we are where we are, with me getting €400/HA more than he threatened or €100000+ since then , forgive me for believing in fairy tales so

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0921/338550-ifa-warns-eu-commissioner-on-issue-over-reforms/

Mooooo wrote: »

Grassland/ crops use of CO2 and hedgrows not being included in overall calculations is a load of bollox tbh. People ****e on about Norway then with there green ways and they exporting 24billion of oil to the UK alone. The whole thing is nothing but pure and utter hypocrisy

Panch18 wrote: »

Well said - pure and utter hypocrisy. and while farmers stand there all quiet and meek then the s##t will keep getting thrown at us, no matter if it 's right, wrong or indifferent

jaymla627 wrote: »

The derrybrien windfarm fiasco and the fact the government still have sorted it, with the EU forced to act says it all, the prick from EPA would be better of sorting a serious issue like the above out first in the indepenant today then waffling on about farmers, but given theirs such inaction someone in high places must have money invested in it, farmers need to forget about going by whatever bat**** crazy rulebook is drawn up, forget about getting the dole from Europe and just farm the land

I have learned over the years to deal with the reality of the situation you are in. Even if IFA and all the rest of the Eu farm organisations change the direction of EU farm policy what kind of change in income will it mean. If they manage to stabilize the ship and no more reductions ( it will take a huge shift in policy) it would be a miracle similar to the loaves and fishes.

As I have said many times the answer to farm incomes no longer lies in Europe. Other European farm organisations have lobbied for a change whereby national funding is allowed. this would be a disaster for Ireland. Along with this we have the climate change/carbon issue. We can all cry about how wrong it is but the reality is we have to deal with it.

We can complain about the rules regarding oil, but they are the rules. As a small nation we will not change the rules regarding carbon and climate change. Neither will we change the changing attitude to calf slaughter and calf/cattle export. Personally I hate to see 25-40% of the country covered in forestry but that is the way the present farm leadership is leading us.

We have to accept that there is no bonanza regarding farm payments/support in Europe. The answer to farm incomes lies at processors and retailers doors whether it is in beef or milk the two main product we export. Today in the FI they highlighted that the three main processors of milk paid 3.5c/L below the EU average and they are above average for total Irish Milk volume.

Farm leadership and farmers need to cop on, and realize the answer to farm income lies not in extra efficiency, or in the EU but in farm gate prices.

The Muppets are pointing in the wrong direction

wrangler · 20-11-2019 7:56am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have learned over the years to deal with the reality of the situation you are in. Even if IFA and all the rest of the Eu farm organisations change the direction of EU farm policy what kind of change in income will it mean. If they manage to stabilize the ship and no more reductions ( it will take a huge shift in policy) it would be a miracle similar to the loaves and fishes.

As I have said many times the answer to farm incomes no longer lies in Europe. Other European farm organisations have lobbied for a change whereby national funding is allowed. this would be a disaster for Ireland. Along with this we have the climate change/carbon issue. We can all cry about how wrong it is but the reality is we have to deal with it.

We can complain about the rules regarding oil, but they are the rules. As a small nation we will not change the rules regarding carbon and climate change. Neither will we change the changing attitude to calf slaughter and calf/cattle export. Personally I hate to see 25-40% of the country covered in forestry but that is the way the present farm leadership is leading us.

We have to accept that there is no bonanza regarding farm payments/support in Europe. The answer to farm incomes lies at processors and retailers doors whether it is in beef or milk the two main product we export. Today in the FI they highlighted that the three main processors of milk paid 3.5c/L below the EU average and they are above average for total Irish Milk volume.

Farm leadership and farmers need to cop on, and realize the answer to farm income lies not in extra efficiency, or in the EU but in farm gate prices.

The Muppets are pointing in the wrong direction

Are you that sad that you can't see that we can't compete with other suppliers of agricultural produce, real world beckons etc.
Until there's a scarcity imports we have to sell cheaper to get on the shelves, so unless the Irish obesity problem worsens and we consume all our milk and beef then price differential will be there.
Name calling is childish schoolyard stuff and says more about the poster than the target, sad again really.
You're in dreamland if you think there's an answer to the farm income crisis other than subsidising the hell out of it, those that don't agree with working in that scenario don't have to stay doing any sort of farming

Sheep breeder · 20-11-2019 9:09am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have learned over the years to deal with the reality of the situation you are in. Even if IFA and all the rest of the Eu farm organisations change the direction of EU farm policy what kind of change in income will it mean. If they manage to stabilize the ship and no more reductions ( it will take a huge shift in policy) it would be a miracle similar to the loaves and fishes.

As I have said many times the answer to farm incomes no longer lies in Europe. Other European farm organisations have lobbied for a change whereby national funding is allowed. this would be a disaster for Ireland. Along with this we have the climate change/carbon issue. We can all cry about how wrong it is but the reality is we have to deal with it.

We can complain about the rules regarding oil, but they are the rules. As a small nation we will not change the rules regarding carbon and climate change. Neither will we change the changing attitude to calf slaughter and calf/cattle export. Personally I hate to see 25-40% of the country covered in forestry but that is the way the present farm leadership is leading us.

We have to accept that there is no bonanza regarding farm payments/support in Europe. The answer to farm incomes lies at processors and retailers doors whether it is in beef or milk the two main product we export. Today in the FI they highlighted that the three main processors of milk paid 3.5c/L below the EU average and they are above average for total Irish Milk volume.

Farm leadership and farmers need to cop on, and realize the answer to farm income lies not in extra efficiency, or in the EU but in farm gate prices.

The Muppets are pointing in the wrong direction

Fair play a great honest post from a working farmer, Europe has no more money to give farming and that is the simple fact going forward.

Sheep breeder · 20-11-2019 9:11am

wrangler wrote: »

Are you that sad that you can't see that we can't compete with other suppliers of agricultural produce, real world beckons etc.
Until there's a scarcity imports we have to sell cheaper to get on the shelves, so unless the Irish obesity problem worsens and we consume all our milk and beef then price differential will be there.
Name calling is childish schoolyard stuff and says more about the poster than the target, sad again really.
You're in dreamland if you think there's an answer to the farm income crisis other than subsidising the hell out of it, those that don't agree with working in that scenario don't have to stay doing any sort of farming

The future is for an active farmer and the lad working the land and not the arm chair one.

Panch18 · 20-11-2019 12:47pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have learned over the years to deal with the reality of the situation you are in. Even if IFA and all the rest of the Eu farm organisations change the direction of EU farm policy what kind of change in income will it mean. If they manage to stabilize the ship and no more reductions ( it will take a huge shift in policy) it would be a miracle similar to the loaves and fishes.

As I have said many times the answer to farm incomes no longer lies in Europe. Other European farm organisations have lobbied for a change whereby national funding is allowed. this would be a disaster for Ireland. Along with this we have the climate change/carbon issue. We can all cry about how wrong it is but the reality is we have to deal with it.

We can complain about the rules regarding oil, but they are the rules. As a small nation we will not change the rules regarding carbon and climate change. Neither will we change the changing attitude to calf slaughter and calf/cattle export. Personally I hate to see 25-40% of the country covered in forestry but that is the way the present farm leadership is leading us.

We have to accept that there is no bonanza regarding farm payments/support in Europe. The answer to farm incomes lies at processors and retailers doors whether it is in beef or milk the two main product we export. Today in the FI they highlighted that the three main processors of milk paid 3.5c/L below the EU average and they are above average for total Irish Milk volume.

Farm leadership and farmers need to cop on, and realize the answer to farm income lies not in extra efficiency, or in the EU but in farm gate prices.

The Muppets are pointing in the wrong direction

Well the fact that you were protesting outside the beef factories looking for a price of 3.90-4.00 when nowhere in Europe was with 30 cent of it tells me that you most certainly have not learned to deal with the reality of the situation that you are in

You don't want huge areas covered in trees but you don't want anybody to fight to have grassland and hedges counted as carbon sinks

The simple fact is we won't have markets if farmers don't start to win the PR battle that is currently raging regarding climate change, land use, red meat bad, dairy bad. If we don't win those battles then there won't be factories for you to picket outside, because not even Larry can magic up a market out of nowhere.

Demand for beef in our main market is taking a hammering - we need to fight for it. We need to get the word out there that red meat isn't the devil re-incarnate, because plenty of people are saying it is and the public is listening

Regarding the EU and their funds, only an idiot wouldn't be in favour of maximising the amount we can get from the EU - because we need every single penny that comes from them

wrangler · 20-11-2019 2:45pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Well the fact that you were protesting outside the beef factories looking for a price of 3.90-4.00 when nowhere in Europe was with 30 cent of it tells me that you most certainly have not learned to deal with the reality of the situation that you are in

You don't want huge areas covered in trees but you don't want anybody to fight to have grassland and hedges counted as carbon sinks

The simple fact is we won't have markets if farmers don't start to win the PR battle that is currently raging regarding climate change, land use, red meat bad, dairy bad. If we don't win those battles then there won't be factories for you to picket outside, because not even Larry can magic up a market out of nowhere.

Demand for beef in our main market is taking a hammering - we need to fight for it. We need to get the word out there that red meat isn't the devil re-incarnate, because plenty of people are saying it is and the public is listening

Regarding the EU and their funds, only an idiot wouldn't be in favour of maximising the amount we can get from the EU - because we need every single penny that comes from them

Even €5/kg won't be enough when the subsidies stop, yet the protestors still claim they don't want subsidies, don't want to jump through hoops. what good was 100m wtc etc
If the tractor protest is as successful as the blockade they'll finish farming altogether

grassroot1 · 20-11-2019 3:15pm

ok so tell about the dairy farmers and their calves again

alps · 20-11-2019 3:48pm

wrangler wrote: »

Even €5/kg don't want enough when the subsidies stop, yet the protestors still claim they don't want subsidies, don't want to jump through hoops. what good was 100m wtc etc
If the tractor protest is as successful as the blockade they'll finish farming altogether

There'll be a fierce run on tyres, mirrors, wipers and road tax this week if they're to get numbers. I see several ads up "tractor driver available for protest"..
Twill be great craic altogether Ted..

GrasstoMilk · 20-11-2019 4:01pm

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/creed-in-the-netherlands-quality-of-irish-calves-indisputable-509744

And a certain poster here would have us all believe that irish calves are not wanted in Europe.

mahoney_j · 20-11-2019 6:53pm

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/creed-in-the-netherlands-quality-of-irish-calves-indisputable-509744

And a certain poster here would have us all believe that irish calves are not wanted in Europe.

An afull lot been made of this ,good news none the less but we’re at the mercy of weather ,windy weather boats won’t sail ,buyers will shy back and its a pure stop gap ,everyone knows export of calves on borrowed time ,good to get these short term measures but long term hearing nothing of note

Panch18 · 20-11-2019 7:40pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

An afull lot been made of this ,good news none the less but we’re at the mercy of weather ,windy weather boats won’t sail ,buyers will shy back and its a pure stop gap ,everyone knows export of calves on borrowed time ,good to get these short term measures but long term hearing nothing of note

No doubt J with anything you write above

It’s good to hear though that the propaganda spouted by some about people shying away from Irish calves is pure nonsense

Bass Reeves · 21-11-2019 10:01am

It all very well to spout that we need to maximize funding from Europe but for the last 15 years it is minimizing there reductions. However IFA still considers that the answer to falling farm incomes lies in EU funding. Over the last 4-5+ years SFP/BPS gas fallen by about 3%/year in value. In the previous years to that it fell over 10%

During the same time we depended on farm efficiencies, and modest product price rises to support farm incomes. Dairy was luck enough that quota's went and this gave dairying an income boost which is now ending.

Teagasc is ending the better farm project because it knows that efficiencies are no long the answer and that agriculture will downsize. With this happening where will the funding come to support farm incomes. It will not come from EU funding. It will not come from national funding. It will have to come from farmers getting a higher produce price whether it is for Beef, milk or Lamb.

The poultry industry had to change it direction 5+ years ago and remove the risk from farmers in the production of eggs and poultry meat. They did this by contracting and by being supplied the chickens and feed and getting a fixed sum/bird produced to cover all other costs.

This is not as easy to replicate in the Beef, Lamb and dairy industries. However in the production of lamb action taken by processors have reduced supply of Mountain store lambs that has made the system profitable. Store lamb producers reduced flock size and or exited the game in the late noughties and this removed the glut of lamb that used to happen in Autumn and Winter. The lowest price now is mid/late summer.

Lads can talk about negotiating positions and not showing your hand but the continual expectation of EU funding as a support mechanism . Over the last few years we saw two strikes within the transport system where unions representing workers were not realistic. The Luas workers looking for a 40%+ pay increase and extra terms and conditions representing another 10-15%. Ianrod Eireann workers refusing to negotiate on a change in structure as the company was collapsing around them. Both taught that Government funding would be supplied to support them. In the LUAS case towards the end when questioned about the realism of there demands that would not be met a union man referred to it as an opening gambit.

So when lads spew on about upwards only convergence and mouthing about a support fund that was supposed to be 100M and because of term's and conditions only 70 million was applied for and maybe take a clawnback 1-2 million in penalties in two years time for me that dose not cut the mustard. If you transfer it across the total beef kill for 12 months it equivilent to about 35-40/head of cattle slaughtered.

wrangler · 21-11-2019 10:34am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It all very well to spout that we need to maximize funding from Europe but for the last 15 years it is minimizing there reductions. However IFA still considers that the answer to falling farm incomes lies in EU funding. Over the last 4-5+ years SFP/BPS gas fallen by about 3%/year in value. In the previous years to that it fell over 10%

During the same time we depended on farm efficiencies, and modest product price rises to support farm incomes. Dairy was luck enough that quota's went and this gave dairying an income boost which is now ending.

Teagasc is ending the better farm project because it knows that efficiencies are no long the answer and that agriculture will downsize. With this happening where will the funding come to support farm incomes. It will not come from EU funding. It will not come from national funding. It will have to come from farmers getting a higher produce price whether it is for Beef, milk or Lamb.

The poultry industry had to change it direction 5+ years ago and remove the risk from farmers in the production of eggs and poultry meat. They did this by contracting and by being supplied the chickens and feed and getting a fixed sum/bird produced to cover all other costs.

This is not as easy to replicate in the Beef, Lamb and dairy industries. However in the production of lamb action taken by processors have reduced supply of Mountain store lambs that has made the system profitable. Store lamb producers reduced flock size and or exited the game in the late noughties and this removed the glut of lamb that used to happen in Autumn and Winter. The lowest price now is mid/late summer.

Lads can talk about negotiating positions and not showing your hand but the continual expectation of EU funding as a support mechanism . Over the last few years we saw two strikes within the transport system where unions representing workers were not realistic. The Luas workers looking for a 40%+ pay increase and extra terms and conditions representing another 10-15%. Ianrod Eireann workers refusing to negotiate on a change in structure as the company was collapsing around them. Both taught that Government funding would be supplied to support them. In the LUAS case towards the end when questioned about the realism of there demands that would not be met a union man referred to it as an opening gambit.

So when lads spew on about upwards only convergence and mouthing about a support fund that was supposed to be 100M and because of term's and conditions only 70 million was applied for and maybe take a clawnback 1-2 million in penalties in two years time for me that dose not cut the mustard. If you transfer it across the total beef kill for 12 months it equivilent to about 35-40/head of cattle slaughtered.

I don't know about IFA , But I see no answer to the crisis in farm incomes, probably because there is none.
If the candidates say that they support convergence, they will lose votes. the joke is of course they will have no say so they can say what they like.
The only good that came out of your protest was that they proved that prices will always depend on the market and despite all the huffing and puffing of Beef Plan the factories won't tolerate messing by suppliers, It's their way or the highway.
Beef production is subsidised now for at least 30+ years so it never stood on its own, it always required lobbying, a high percentage of BPS payments is still going to drystock farmers so it'll always be all to play for. I know guys getting €10000 -€14000 outa BEAM and I don't hear any of them sending it back

Bass Reeves · 21-11-2019 12:37pm

wrangler wrote: »

I don't know about IFA , But I see no answer to the crisis in farm incomes, probably because there is none.
If the candidates say that they support convergence, they will lose votes. the joke is of course they will have no say so they can say what they like.
The only good that came out of your protest was that they proved that prices will always depend on the market and despite all the huffing and puffing of Beef Plan the factories won't tolerate messing by suppliers, It's their way or the highway.
Beef production is subsidised now for at least 30+ years so it never stood on its own, it always required lobbying, a high percentage of BPS payments is still going to drystock farmers so it'll always be all to play for. I know guys getting €10000 -€14000 outa BEAM and I don't hear any of them sending it back

They would be as rear as hen's teeth. Maximum payment is 100/head on 100 cattle and 40/head on up to 40 suckler cows. So maximum payment is 11600 provided you had 100 suckler cows and slaughtered over 100 cattle in the Beam period. Even if there was no limit on Suckler cow herd numbers for Beam last figures I saw from the department records was 2015 its shows that there was 236 herds with over 100 suckler cows which would have been necessary to draw 14K if no limitations in place. I imagine that this is below 200 now with lads switching to dairying if not lower.

35K farmers applied for Beam and a little over 70 million was approved. Since approval 750 applicants have withdrawn stupid but they have withdrawn. Average payment will be about 2K. Not to be sniffed at but it is only a once off payment. I expect that payments will be clawed back from about 5K farmers as like myself it would be stupid to reduce production by 5% for sub 500 euro.

But all them lads that told you they are getting 14K are lying to you Wranglerr

wrangler · 21-11-2019 1:20pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

They would be as rear as hen's teeth. Maximum payment is 100/head on 100 cattle and 40/head on up to 40 suckler cows. So maximum payment is 11600 provided you had 100 suckler cows and slaughtered over 100 cattle in the Beam period. Even if there was no limit on Suckler cow herd numbers for Beam last figures I saw from the department records was 2015 its shows that there was 236 herds with over 100 suckler cows which would have been necessary to draw 14K if no limitations in place. I imagine that this is below 200 now with lads switching to dairying if not lower.

35K farmers applied for Beam and a little over 70 million was approved. Since approval 750 applicants have withdrawn stupid but they have withdrawn. Average payment will be about 2K. Not to be sniffed at but it is only a once off payment. I expect that payments will be clawed back from about 5K farmers as like myself it would be stupid to reduce production by 5% for sub 500 euro.

But all them lads that told you they are getting 14K are lying to you Wranglerr

he wasn't lying, he just said he was getting the max. I just had another senior moment

Bass Reeves · 22-11-2019 11:17am

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/category/schemes/

I think I can stand over what I called them

Siamsa Sessions · 22-11-2019 1:28pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/category/schemes/

I think I can stand over what I called them

I saw 8 different candidates for the various positions over the past few weeks and only 1 of them seemed to move beyond the fist-pumping, fight-them-on-the-beaches stance. The other 7 mostly tried to act like Timmy Ryan, the GAA manager, in D'Unbelievables sketch 20 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guT76kAPYs0

From going to meetings and talking to neighbours, there's an appetite for change out there. People seem open to new ideas as the current approach to support farming is failing so badly. Yet the future leaders seem to think us welly-wearing gob-daws just want Timmy Ryan.

Whereas factories, retailers, and the Dept have Brian Cody, Jurgen Klopp, and Rassie Erasmus, our boys are determined to jump up and down on the line, shouting "pull harder lads, will ye pull harder"

wrangler · 22-11-2019 1:47pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I saw 8 different candidates for the various positions over the past few weeks and only 1 of them seemed to move beyond the fist-pumping, fight-them-on-the-beaches stance. The other 7 mostly tried to act like Timmy Ryan, the GAA manager, in D'Unbelievables sketch 20 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guT76kAPYs0

From going to meetings and talking to neighbours, there's an appetite for change out there. People seem open to new ideas as the current approach to support farming is failing so badly. Yet the future leaders seem to think us welly-wearing gob-daws just want Timmy Ryan.

Whereas factories, retailers, and the Dept have Brian Cody, Jurgen Klopp, and Rassie Erasmus, our boys are determined to jump up and down on the line, shouting "pull harder lads, will ye pull harder"

Like myself these guys have the experience to know whats worth looking for, I asked on here were the Irish dairy farmers not afraid of over producing, I was told that Ireland was such a small insignificant country that it wouldn't even contribute to a glut never mind cause one.
Similarily no matter what Irish farmers do in reducing numbers of cattle they're not going to cause a scarcity that'll effect the market price.
Apparently the Chinese are paying brazil about €3/kg for their beef, and that's only because they're stuck for protein. China was supposed to be our Utopia

Siamsa Sessions · 22-11-2019 2:13pm

wrangler wrote: »

Apparently the Chinese are paying brazil about €3/kg for their beef, and that's only because they're stuck for protein. China was supposed to be our Utopia

A guy from Bord Bia was asked at a recent farm meeting I attended what was the bottom line when it came to selling Ireland Inc to China, Japan, etc. That is, what do buyers for these new markets ask about - was it quality assurance or was it price?

He seemed embarrassed to be asked the question so bluntly. And he didn't make much of an effort to defend the line about it being all about food safety, QA, etc.

wrangler · 22-11-2019 2:40pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

A guy from Bord Bia was asked at a recent farm meeting I attended what was the bottom line when it came to selling Ireland Inc to China, Japan, etc. That is, what do buyers for these new markets ask about - was it quality assurance or was it price?

He seemed embarrassed to be asked the question so bluntly. And he didn't make much of an effort to defend the line about it being all about food safety, QA, etc.

Of course it's price,
On food safety you'd wonder can you give a substance to an animal that's harmful to humans without killing the animal as well IYKWIM

yosemitesam1 · 22-11-2019 2:46pm

wrangler wrote: »

Like myself these guys have the experience to know whats worth looking for

Is holding onto as much money as possible in the short-term the best tactic for the long-term. Getting more money ringfenced into environmental results based schemes would surely be the best for the majority of farmers in the long run

wrangler · 22-11-2019 3:29pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Is holding onto as much money as possible in the short-term the best tactic for the long-term. Getting more money ringfenced into environmental results based schemes would surely be the best for the majority of farmers in the long run

I don't agree with environmental schemes, results based or not. I don't think there's enough evidence of anyone taking the damage to the environment serious, government or public.
Environment schemes are a joke at the moment and only a dole for farmers same as the BPS so why change it. Either will do to get money to farmers

Bass Reeves · 22-11-2019 3:30pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Is holding onto as much money as possible in the short-term the best tactic for the long-term. Getting more money ringfenced into environmental results based schemes would surely be the best for the majority of farmers in the long run

I have no problem with any representive organisation taking a position on anything. What I do have is where that organisation trles to dress up there policy as something else. IFA would seem to be against convergence. That is fair enough if you come out and day that. Coming along with an statement of upward only convergence is a way of being unwilling to discuss the issue within the organisation. It gives people paying subscription and levies an opinion that IFA is representing them when it is not. It means that all 3 candidates would seem to be against convergence.

IFA has very actively represented a certain cohort of farmer's but there is a large number now that see that they are not representing there interests. This is why thousands have walked away and stopped paying leavies. This number is increasing all the time.

wrangler · 22-11-2019 4:23pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have no problem with any representive organisation taking a position on anything. What I do have is where that organisation trles to dress up there policy as something else. IFA would seem to be against convergence. That is fair enough if you come out and day that. Coming along with an statement of upward only convergence is a way of being unwilling to discuss the issue within the organisation. It gives people paying subscription and levies an opinion that IFA is representing them when it is not. It means that all 3 candidates would seem to be against convergence.

IFA has very actively represented a certain cohort of farmer's but there is a large number now that see that they are not representing there interests. This is why thousands have walked away and stopped paying leavies. This number is increasing all the time.

How do you explain corley then with a large BPS that goes off and leads a cluster**** against the IFA that's protecting his payments, he could afford to make a f...up of his year WITHOUT ANY FEARS or maybe he got in his cattle before the gates were blocked like some BP GUYS
Very easy to see the guys spewing against IFA and then look up their payments, you couldn't make it up. again sad...... 50000 bps is some compensation for selling 100 cattle

Bass Reeves · 22-11-2019 4:59pm

wrangler wrote: »

How do you explain corley then with a large BPS that goes off and leads a cluster**** against the IFA that's protecting his payments, he could afford to make a f...up of his year WITHOUT ANY FEARS or maybe he got in his cattle before the gates were blocked like some BP GUYS
Very easy to see the guys spewing against IFA and then look up their payments, you couldn't make it up. again sad...... 50000 bps is some compensation for selling 100 cattle

It was not like IFA guys were not spewing against BP from the start

wrangler · 22-11-2019 5:46pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It was not like IFA guys were not spewing against BP from the start

If they think they can give it, they better be prepared to take it, especially now that they have messed up.

Base price · 22-11-2019 7:42pm

wrangler wrote: »

I don't agree with environmental schemes, results based or not. I don't think there's enough evidence of anyone taking the damage to the environment serious, government or public.
Environment schemes are a joke at the moment and only a dole for farmers same as the BPS so why change it. Either will do to get money to farmers

Whether you agree with environmental schemes or not I think that they are the way forward. Farming is getting hammered by the media at the moment and public perception is like a pendulum that can swing both ways. It is imperative that we keep the public (consumers) on our side if we want to continue receiving their tax dollars, at the end of the day they are our paymasters and we have to be seen to be doing our bit for the environment.

I have no problem with environmental schemes as by entering GLAS we recouped some of the loss of our SFP. I hope the future schemes are more focused on biodiversity within each geographical region rather than the blanket scheme that GLAS was.

Grueller · 22-11-2019 8:34pm

So then, calves next spring?

DukeCaboom · 22-11-2019 8:44pm

There's an accountant here telling his dairy clients to just get rid of the calf no matter what at 3/4 days old.
Absolute brainless stuff really and he'd be the one tellling them to buy a tractor in October then to keep down the tax bill.
If you walk into the marts in the spring the big problem is young calves.
Dairy farmers can surly wear the cost of 2 or 3 weeks feeding!
Calves forty days old are so scare in spring sales nowadays they are making plenty.

jaymla627 · 22-11-2019 8:45pm

Grueller wrote: »

So then, calves next spring?

She'll be right jack, seems to be the attitude out their at the minute, with the new bord bia rules been brought-in lads are going to have to invest in more housing and labour to keep the job right, even if its loss making

JeffKenna · 22-11-2019 8:45pm

DukeCaboom wrote: »

There's an accountant here telling his dairy clients to just get rid of the calf no matter what at 3/4 days old.
Absolute brainless stuff really and he'd be the one tellling them to buy a tractor in October then to keep down the tax bill.
If you walk into the marts in the spring the big problem is young calves.
Dairy farmers can surly wear the cost of 2 or 3 weeks feeding!
Calves forty days old are so scare in spring sales nowadays they are making plenty.

That's the problem with accountants, they're brainless.

DukeCaboom · 22-11-2019 8:48pm

JeffKenna wrote: »

That's the problem with accountants, they're brainless.

When asked about a permit.... Just do it when they are 10days old and take a chance.

Base price · 22-11-2019 9:46pm

Grueller wrote: »

So then, calves next spring?

IMO it will be the same as every other year. Good FR bull calves will sell to farmers or for export. If the weather gets windy and the calf lorries cannot sail then farmers will have to hold onto them a little longer and take a hit on prices.

My main concern is the upsurge of so called animal right activists - you'd swear us farmers don't have the welfare of our animals as paramount in our operations.

Bass Reeves · 22-11-2019 9:57pm

Base price wrote: »

IMO it will be the same as every other year. Good FR bull calves will sell to farmers or for export. If the weather gets windy and the calf lorries cannot sail then farmers will have to hold onto them a little longer and take a hit on prices.

My main concern is the upsurge of so called animal right activists - you'd swear us farmers don't have the welfare of our animals as paramount in our operations.

A lot will depend on Beef prices this winter. If we go through another winter of sub 4/kg beef price for now until after Christmas. it will leave confidance in beef very low. Remember we produce about 1.5 million calves. In general exporters only want Fr type calves there is expected to be a reduction in these next spring due to the use of more beef bulls.

If beef prices remain low calf to store men may well buy less calves. A 10% drop in Irish demand would need we need to export over 100K extra calves. I am not totally convinced by the propganda from Creeds visit to the Netherlands.Now I know they have reduced cow numbers out there but will this lift demand enough if local demand drops.

IMO it all depends on the confidence of Irish calf buyers not ferry sailings

Base price · 22-11-2019 10:46pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A lot will depend on Beef prices this winter. If we go through another winter of sub 4/kg beef price for now until after Christmas. it will leave confidance in beef very low. Remember we produce about 1.5 million calves. In general exporters only want Fr type calves there is expected to be a reduction in these next spring due to the use of more beef bulls.

If beef prices remain low calf to store men may well buy less calves. A 10% drop in Irish demand would need we need to export over 100K extra calves. I am not totally convinced by the propganda from Creeds visit to the Netherlands.Now I know they have reduced cow numbers out there but will this lift demand enough if local demand drops.

IMO it all depends on the confidence of Irish calf buyers not ferry sailings

Bass I'm not trying to be smart but imo you don't know about calf exports. Calf exporters buy cheap when numbers are on the ground i.e. lots of FR bull calves during Spring, that's how they make their profit. When numbers become scarce they will accept lesser quality FRx for next or nothing and pay good enough money for AAx, HEx, BBx and other continental breeds.

As you previously posted, any upset with live calf shipping especially if the ferry operators refuse to carry livestock lorries will cause a massive problem.

Bass Reeves · 22-11-2019 11:02pm

Base price wrote: »

Bass I'm not trying to be smart but imo you don't know about calf exports. Calf exporters buy cheap when numbers are on the ground i.e. lots of FR bull calves during Spring, that's how they make their profit. When numbers become scarce they will accept lesser quality FRx for next or nothing and pay good enough money for AAx, HEx, BBx and other continental breeds.

As you previously posted, any upset with live calf shipping especially if the ferry operators refuse to carry livestock lorries will cause a massive problem.

I think a lot of people underestimate the effect of what could happen if Irish calf buyers decide to down size. It has happened before. Before the **** hits the fan the lads in the know duck. Teagasc has started to duck. Like I said it all depends on beef prices. If they stay below 4K all bets are off IMO China might save us this year.

Yes they take BBX and other continental calves. Most HE and AA go to Spain AFAIK. They may decide to take them but the issue with them for veal is there growth rate and marbling to a certain extent. However I am not confident that if Irish farmer demand drops that exports will fill the complete gab.

Base price · 22-11-2019 11:50pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think a lot of people underestimate the effect of what could happen if Irish calf buyers decide to down size. It has happened before. Before the **** hits the fan the lads in the know duck. Teagasc has started to duck. Like I said it all depends on beef prices. If they stay below 4K all bets are off IMO China might save us this year.

Yes they take BBX and other continental calves. Most HE and AA go to Spain AFAIK. They may decide to take them but the issue with them for veal is there growth rate and marbling to a certain extent. However I am not confident that if Irish farmer demand drops that exports will fill the complete gab.

When did it happen before? Cause I don't have any memory other than late 1990's and into the 2000's during the BSE crisis.

Under EU legislation Spanish, Dutch, French, (Belgian) and other EU buyers have access to DAFM records when the calves tags/details are uploaded prior to shipping ex Ireland. AFAIK calf buyers are more than well aware of the AI usage of bulls used across the dairy herd.

IMO your waffling

wrangler · 23-11-2019 12:16am

Base price wrote: »

When did it happen before? Cause I don't have any memory other than late 1990's and into the 2000's during the BSE crisis.

Under EU legislation Spanish, Dutch, French, (Belgian) and other EU buyers have access to DAFM records when the calves tags/details are uploaded prior to shipping ex Ireland. AFAIK calf buyers are more than well aware of the AI usage of bulls used across the dairy herd.

IMO your waffling

WOW.... even I have never been accused of that by you

Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Comments