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When Gaelicisation works, and when it doesn't

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Comments

  • #52
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Thanks, for the extra information but those compound words are, therefore, adjective-noun :-)
    Not exactly, they are compound nouns, no more than the "New" in "Newbridge" is an adjective. The adjective is now the first syllable of a new noun.

    This is even stronger in Irish where the adjective in the compound often breaks grammar associated with adjectives.


  • #53
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »

    Swindon is from Swine and Down ( Old English for Hill) or Pig's Hill, which I call Cnoic Na mMuc, or KnocknaMuck. Got some abuse on twitter from a Swindonian for that one.

    ( Actually I could probably use Dun for the hill, since the English "down" is possibly related to the Irish/ Celtic dun, or fort - which would be on high ground)

    LOL - priceless -I wouldnt change a thing. :D

    What do you do for London


  • #54
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    CDfm wrote: »
    LOL - priceless -I wouldnt change a thing. :D

    What do you do for London

    Ballyclon.

    London's etymology is in doubt am going with valley town.

    Also: thinking Dublin for BlackPool - not the hardest - and Tobar for Bath.


  • #55
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    I have taken to translating English placenames to Irish and back to English via transliteration, based on the English Town's meaning.

    Swindon is from Swine and Down ( Old English for Hill) or Pig's Hill, which I call Cnoic Na mMuc, or KnocknaMuck. Got some abuse on twitter from a Swindonian for that one.

    ( Actually I could probably use Dun for the hill, since the English "down" is possibly related to the Irish/ Celtic dun, or fort - which would be on high ground)

    So, how do you explain Hill of Down/Cnoc an Dúin, which in its Irish means the perfectly understandable 'Hill of the fort'?


  • #56
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Interesting thread, some of the replacement Irish names stuck but many other towns kept to the older English placenames.

    Bunclody was Newtownbarry & Glenmore was Alywardstown but Wellington Bridge is still in use?

    Although I can't find Wellington Bridge on an old map of Wexford I have which is before the South Wexford rail line was built, it has the Macmine Junction- Rathgarouge - New Ross line so must be late 1800's ?

    There's a lot of villages in South Wexford which still have English sounding names:eek: Although it's been said before that County Wexford had 4 languages a few centuries back!!:D


  • #57
    Johnmb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    purplepanda wrote: »
    There's a lot of villages in South Wexford which still have English sounding names:eek: Although it's been said before that County Wexford had 4 languages a few centuries back!!:D
    It was the last place that Middle (or Old?) English was spoken as an every day, living language.


  • #58
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Johnmb wrote: »
    It was the last place that Middle (or Old?) English was spoken as an every day, living language.

    My Aunt almost had a dialect of English as did some of her neighbours in the Wellington Bridge area


  • #59
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    My Aunt almost had a dialect of English as did some of her neighbours in the Wellington Bridge area

    That's just the Cork accent :D


  • #60
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Johnmb wrote: »
    It was the last place that Middle (or Old?) English was spoken as an every day, living language.

    That was Yola wasn't it? I've read that the word yoke (as in all round thingy) comes from Yola, anyone know if that's true.


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  • #61
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    That's just the Cork accent :D

    Lol

    Its in Wexford and is Droichead Eoin in Irish - Eoin being the Irish for wellies :D


  • #62
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    fontanalis wrote: »
    That was Yola wasn't it? I've read that the word yoke (as in all round thingy) comes from Yola, anyone know if that's true.


    Yep, Yola was the language around Wexford, It was a dialect of Old English, Apparently there are still some speakers of it there.


  • #63
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Yep, Yola was the language around Wexford, It was a dialect of Old English, Apparently there are still some speakers of it there.

    Wow - so thats what the Yola thing was all about .

    Do you know any more about it ?


  • #64
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Here's a link to a recent rte radio show. Must get around to listening to it. I read on another website someones claim that this is from Belgae tribes settling in the area (possibly due to fleeing Romans in Britain).
    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-yola-language-wexford.html


  • #65
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Here's a link to a recent rte radio show. Must get around to listening to it. I read on another website someones claim that this is from Belgae tribes settling in the area (possibly due to fleeing Romans in Britain).
    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-yola-language-wexford.html

    Very interesting! Great listen, thanks for that.


  • #66
    Johnmb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Here's a link to a recent rte radio show. Must get around to listening to it. I read on another website someones claim that this is from Belgae tribes settling in the area (possibly due to fleeing Romans in Britain).
    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-yola-language-wexford.html
    Yola, a dialect of Middle English, had nothing to do with Belgae, or any other Celtic group. It was the descendants of the English speakers who came over to serve the Normans, and ended up staying. Their version of English was eradicated in the same way as Irish was in the area, due to the same laws etc, when Modern English was being forced on all the people.


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  • #67
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Johnmb wrote: »
    Yola, a dialect of Middle English, had nothing to do with Belgae, or any other Celtic group. It was the descendants of the English speakers who came over to serve the Normans, and ended up staying. Their version of English was eradicated in the same way as Irish was in the area, due to the same laws etc, when Modern English was being forced on all the people.

    Yola has similarities to the form of English spoken during the Northern England during the Danelaw / Viking period when Northern England was subjected to Norse rule & settlement, & could have originally developed from Norse in Ireland. There was trading links between Wexford & Bristol from Viking times. The Normans when they occupied Wexford Town forced the town inhabitants southwards towards Forth & Bargy where the Yola language was spoken.

    English refugees & exiles were present in Wexford from the Norman invasion of 1066 including the brother & sons of Harold Godwinson King of England, were allied with Diarmat Mac Mael Bo King of Leinster & High King of Ireland who aided English resistance against the Norman occupation for years afterwards with soldiers & use of ships to land forces.

    Yola is not originally a dialect of Middle English although it might have been influenced by it at a later date. Yola also has Irish, Flemish, Welsh & Norman French words included in it's lexicon. It is considered a separate branch of the West Germanic branch of languages from English.


  • #68
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Johnmb wrote: »
    Yola, a dialect of Middle English, had nothing to do with Belgae, or any other Celtic group. It was the descendants of the English speakers who came over to serve the Normans, and ended up staying. Their version of English was eradicated in the same way as Irish was in the area, due to the same laws etc, when Modern English was being forced on all the people.

    That's what I thought too, I just thrw the Belgae comment in there to see what people would say as it's something I've read a couple times on another forum (by someone who is into the idea of the belgae and p celtic speaking people in ireland).


  • #69
    Johnmb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    purplepanda wrote: »
    Yola has similarities to the form of English spoken during the Northern England during the Danelaw / Viking period when Northern England was subjected to Norse rule & settlement, & could have originally developed from Norse in Ireland. There was trading links between Wexford & Bristol from Viking times. The Normans when they occupied Wexford Town forced the town inhabitants southwards towards Forth & Bargy where the Yola language was spoken.
    Most explanations I've seen regard it as having been brought over by the English who came over with the Normans, and is most like the Middle English spoken in south west England, not the Danelaw.
    English refugees & exiles were present in Wexford from the Norman invasion of 1066 including the brother & sons of Harold Godwinson King of England, were allied with Diarmat Mac Mael Bo King of Leinster & High King of Ireland who aided English resistance against the Norman occupation for years afterwards with soldiers & use of ships to land forces.
    Diarmait was not the High King of Ireland. There was never a High King of Ireland.
    Yola is not originally a dialect of Middle English although it might have been influenced by it at a later date. Yola also has Irish, Flemish, Welsh & Norman French words included in it's lexicon. It is considered a separate branch of the West Germanic branch of languages from English.
    Again, any reading I've done on this has said the opposite. Yola is clearly placed in the Anglic (sub?)family of languages, and the other languages are said to have possibly influenced it at a later date, although checking the internet (I've no current access to the books) there is little evidence for that.


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