BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

r93kaey5p2izun · 26-07-2018 12:06am

They're in the Short Hop zone and I'm not aware of any further distincton than that. Bus Connects did not refer to any distinction. Just no commuter rail.

http://www.irishrail.ie/rail-fares-and-tickets/dart-and-short-hop-zone

shaddupayaface wrote: »

What zones do they fall into?

marno21 · 26-07-2018 12:19am

devnull wrote: »

NBRU have always been the more vocal union though haven't they.

On the subject of that, I came across this last week:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh1wNrWXUAA0Xsz.jpg

Has there been a lot of DB staff switching unions because of this?

More of the usual anti NTA and anti "privatisation" rhetoric

I must have missed when 10% of Bus Eireann & Dublin Bus were "privatised". When did this happen ?

dfx- · 26-07-2018 1:18am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Their view?, why do they even have a view and why is anyone giving them the time of day with it? They're a union, not a planning and operations organisation. All their members do is drive routes or work in the office / garages. As long as employees are happy with any changes that impact them directly why are NBRU commenting on anything to do with this, never mind critical things like public interaction? They're an utter disgrace and should be called out on it.

Sometimes I think this forum is obsessed with the NBRU. They get more attention here than almost anywhere else.

Peregrine · 26-07-2018 1:33am

dfx- wrote: »

Sometimes I think this forum is obsessed with the NBRU. They get more attention here than almost anywhere else.

How many other places do you know where people are discussing Irish public transport to the level this forum is?

You make it sound like you know a few dozen.

Goldengirl · 26-07-2018 2:21am

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Cookie_Monster · 26-07-2018 4:33am

Goldengirl wrote: »

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what same service? Services available differ greatly depending on your location, that is the only differential here. NTA or DB do not actively discriminate against those with disabilities, no more than they do anyone else. Just because person X lives in location A and person Y lives in location B does not guarantee them the same level of service.

How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that the bus service in Dublin has limited resources which have to be best used to accommodate the most number of people in the most efficient way. Insisting every single disabled person has a bus right outside their door to every conceivable destination they want to go to is not practical or realistic in the slightest.

It's akin to arguing that I should have access to 10 minute frequency 7b all day service(rather than rush hour only single direction services) because it suits me because people on the N11 have the 46a and 145 at those levels. It ignores the reality of the situation completely.

Goldengirl · 26-07-2018 5:02am

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LeinsterDub · 26-07-2018 7:45am

Goldengirl wrote: »

Ignorant comment..

Thoughtful and insightful input do carry on.

LeinsterDub · 26-07-2018 7:52am

Goldengirl wrote: »

No . You're the one who snigger snigger said that they "seem to have no problem when they get to the city" ?
I have suggested maintaining a local off peak service, not at the expense of the busier routes, but not a dial a bus or taxi service. It was one of the adolescents that suggested they were" shut ins" or "comatose", and would need an ambulance.

How can you be making up my argument when it's in black and white in front of you. I said in the main aka in general aka the the majority of. You don't even know what a dial-a-bus service is your last post showed that. It is not a taxi service.

jd · 26-07-2018 7:53am

shaddupayaface wrote: »

Looks like that reply was to a question about north of Malahide.

Reply was

BusConnects
@BusConnects
Replying to @highnellybike @duburb and 7 others
The 90 minute fare includes all DART services but not commuter rail.

LeinsterDub · 26-07-2018 7:55am

Goldengirl wrote: »

And who are you to say that? Give it up ! They might have a friend or assistant waiting at OCS ,as you put it. Jeez, what business of yours?
The service should be maintained in some fashion, be it off peak, or a feeder route connecting. What's with all the pushing of the dial a bus service for one section of the community ? How would people react if in order to get people to work it was proposed that they should get a taxi ? Wouldn't go down too well. So why should you or anyone else tell people that because they have a disability they are not entitled to the same service as everyone else?

It no business of mine and I've acknowledged there are those mobility issues and have offered a solution to their issues. I was attempting to highlight the the fact that some here are fit and able-bodied are using the old and disabled as a smokescreen. However their crocodile tears don't seem to stretch as far as town where those with difficulties will need to do far more walking.

The dial-a-bus service isn't mandatory, it isn't required. People who had a pass for said service could still use the regular buses if they were having a good day. I'd honestly suggest you look up one of these types of service before discussing it.

MJohnston · 26-07-2018 8:57am

Goldengirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If you have a problem with a specific post of mine, either report it or quote and reply to it. To post something like this is so silly, considering I was trying to point out the merits of your side of the debate. You just seem to want to attack everyone here.

devnull · 26-07-2018 9:19am

I understand that this is a hot topic that will effect everyone who uses public transport in the Dublin Area and because of that feelings will run high for many who are looking at things from a wealth of different viewpoints.

However I think it's important that I remind posters of the following at this moment
- Attack the post and not the poster,
- Be civil to each other even if you disagree
- Do not speculate on the identity of posters
- If you feel a post has broken the rules, report it.

Let's make this place where alternative viewpoints aren't vilified, but challenged with well constructed, respectful counterpoints. We have had a lot of good discussion in this thread, lets continue that without getting sidetracked by some of the things above.

Stephen15 · 26-07-2018 11:25am

Goldengirl wrote: »

The service should be maintained in some fashion, be it off peak, or a feeder route connecting. What's with all the pushing of the dial a bus service for one section of the community ?

That's what's being proposed for most areas which are loosing a direct service into the city centre. Have you seen the proposals almost every road which currently has a bus service will still have a bus service whether it be radial, orbital or local/feeder.

CatInABox · 26-07-2018 11:34am

The NTA have a new video out on their integrated ticketing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqC2Nwmmdto

In summary, it's Oyster Card, but with added taxi and parking features.

MJohnston · 26-07-2018 11:37am

The Dial-a-bus concept is usually intended for disabled people and elderly people in their 80s and above who would be unable to use regular buses. It feels like people complaining about it as an idea haven't actually examined how it operates in other cities, such as London where TfL's Dial a ride service is extremely popular. In my mind, this wouldn't really be a solve to anything that BusConnects changes, because it's very unlikely these types of passengers are currently able to use a Dublin Bus. It would be a completely new type of service if introduced today, and the same will be true under BusConnects.

There would have to be a separate concept of smaller feeder buses that would operate from some areas which are loosing service under BusConnects, as well as having the potential to cover areas not currently serviced even pre-BusConnects. We shouldn't be running frequent double-decker bus routes through the housing estates that they currently are. These should be reserved for the main, higher-capacity routes with the small feeder services delivering passengers to them.

MJohnston · 26-07-2018 11:41am

CatInABox wrote: »

The NTA have a new video out on their integrated ticketing.

In summary, it's Oyster Card, but with added taxi and parking features.

They could do that "low account balance" alert on the Android app tomorrow if they could be arsed.

devnull · 26-07-2018 11:56am

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022427582845865987

I still don't understand how people can call what we currently have as a network, since really it isn't much of a network and that is why everyone has to go via the City Centre, and then people wonder why so many people are in their car.

We will never attract people out of their cars when they can be a short distance away from their destination or place of work but to reach it they would have to go a long way away from their destination and come back.

Peregrine · 26-07-2018 12:03pm

devnull wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022427582845865987

Boorish, ill-informed, one-sided and downright embarrassing for his union members. Wouldn't want to be represented by him.

Peregrine · 26-07-2018 12:11pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The NTA have a new video out on their integrated ticketing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqC2Nwmmdto

In summary, it's Oyster Card, but with added taxi and parking features.

Interesting. I presume they're planning on buying new ticket machines, so?

dfx- · 26-07-2018 12:18pm

devnull wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022427582845865987

I still don't understand how people can call what we currently have as a network, since really it isn't much of a network and that is why everyone has to go via the City Centre, and then people wonder why so many people are in their car.

We will never attract people out of their cars when they can be a short distance away from their destination or place of work but to reach it they would have to go a long way away from their destination and come back.

The network is city centre based for a very good reason. The demand for orbital routes are minimal by comparison, they need to wander around to make them feasible using shopping centres or estates. Applying the BusConnects principle, the needs of the many outweigh the few..

Its operation principles laid down by Network Direct (doubling the length of routes to take buses out of the city centre) keeps the key routes from working, the 4, 13, 15, 16, 27, 39A, 40.

Stephen15 · 26-07-2018 12:31pm

dfx- wrote: »

The network is city centre based for a very good reason. The demand for orbital routes are minimal by comparison, they need to wander around to make them feasible using shopping centres or estates. Applying the BusConnects principle, the needs of the many outweigh the few..

Its operation principles laid down by Network Direct (doubling the length of routes to take buses out of the city centre) keeps the key routes from working, the 4, 13, 15, 16, 27, 39A, 40.

But the routes you mention there are the types of routes which are being replaced by high frequency spinal routes post Bus Connects there are still plenty of routes which serve the city centre but don't have near the same demand as the routes which you mention. The likes of the 44, 47, 54a, 56a or the 61 wouldn't have near as much demand as the routes which mentioned above.

devnull · 26-07-2018 12:32pm

dfx- wrote: »

The network is city centre based for a very good reason. The demand for orbital routes are minimal by comparison, they need to wander around to make them feasible using shopping centres or estates.

The thing is that the vast majority of people that travel from one place to another in the local area that isn't between where they live/work in the suburbs or live/work in the city centre, don't use public transport and instead drive because they cannot get where they want to by public transport.

This is why the modal share of public transport in Dublin is low compared to other capital cities, because for a lot of people there journeys that they take by car are so long, drawn out and indirect by public transport that there is little benefit of doing so, so they simply don't.

Applying the BusConnects principle, the needs of the many outweigh the few.

I think that giving the many a more frequent direct service and the few a less frequent direct service is a better way of doing things than buses running carrying fresh air around for the majority of their journeys whilst others are bursting at the seams.

It's like Ireland in general, if you live in the most rural small village, you shouldn't expect to get the same kind of services that you would in a capital city.

Slutmonkey57b · 26-07-2018 12:33pm

How many commuters are currently stuck in traffic because there are no orbital routes which serve industrial estates, schools, or large shopping centres? Watch the traffic disappear during school holidays and explain why. It's because there's no reliable bus *network*. I can get in and out of work on a bus because I'm lucky to be on a QBC and my workplace and home are both close to stops on that network. Ask anyone who works in ballymount, Sandyford, West point, or citywest how useful the bus services are out there. If there was a bus network, designed around the needs of the majority of commuters, then traffic might actually drop in the city.

The days when everyone lived 10 minutes from their workplace are long gone.

LeinsterDub · 26-07-2018 1:11pm

dfx- wrote: »

The network is city centre based for a very good reason. The demand for orbital routes are minimal by comparison, they need to wander around to make them feasible using shopping centres or estates. Applying the BusConnects principle, the needs of the many outweigh the few..

Its operation principles laid down by Network Direct (doubling the length of routes to take buses out of the city centre) keeps the key routes from working, the 4, 13, 15, 16, 27, 39A, 40.

All we know for sure that the demand ins minimal by comparison for the current orbitals which are so infrequent as to be useless.

john boye · 26-07-2018 1:11pm

devnull wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022427582845865987

I still don't understand how people can call what we currently have as a network, since really it isn't much of a network and that is why everyone has to go via the City Centre, and then people wonder why so many people are in their car.

We will never attract people out of their cars when they can be a short distance away from their destination or place of work but to reach it they would have to go a long way away from their destination and come back.

Referring to JW etc as "geek planners" is astounding yet also not one bit surprising. Just shows the sheer small-mindedness and buffoonery of these guys. It does also speak to the general suspicion of "experts" among many these days and we've seen how people bought into that in the UK so people will listen to him.

Stephen Strange · 26-07-2018 1:23pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Interesting. I presume they're planning on buying new ticket machines, so?

I would assume so.

Also, if they're going to accept leap in taxis, this should be an opportunity to make card payments available in all taxis.

dfx- · 26-07-2018 1:36pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

All we know for sure that the demand ins minimal by comparison for the current orbitals which are so infrequent as to be useless.

The current orbitals are largely fine. Is the 104 demanding an increase in frequency? Reliability is more an issue than frequency. Ironically the 76 is one of the poster children of Network Direct, knitting together various possible connections (76A/76B) into just one primary route.

The main city centre routes are not ok and they are the major problem. The 76 has the same frequency off peak as the 13 and 27 while carrying a fraction of the customers - that is baffling. The 39A is stuffed full off peak as thomasj can attest while the orbitals in Blanchardstown are carrying fresh air.

LeinsterDub · 26-07-2018 1:56pm

dfx- wrote: »

The current orbitals are largely fine. Is the 104 demanding an increase in frequency? Reliability is more an issue than frequency. Ironically the 76 is one of the poster children of Network Direct, knitting together various possible connections (76A/76B) into just one primary route.

I'd not call the 30 off peak frequency of the 17a largely fine. Frequency covers up a lot of reliability issues

sharper · 26-07-2018 1:56pm

john boye wrote: »

Referring to JW etc as "geek planners" is astounding yet also not one bit surprising. Just shows the sheer small-mindedness and buffoonery of these guys. It does also speak to the general suspicion of "experts" among many these days and we've seen how people bought into that in the UK so people will listen to him.

It's a reasonable hint as to how long you'd be waiting for a usable bus network if Dublin Bus remained in charge of it.

cgcsb · 26-07-2018 2:04pm

I'll lose my direct bus to the City Centre but will only be a 7 minute walk from a spine which will have better than 5 min frequency and reliable journey time assuming all the infrastructure is appropriately built. I'll also be gaining access to the new O route and one of the N orbitals, both of which will be fantastic for accessing the airport, currently unfeasible by public transport(over an hour journey time) despite my house being only 6km from the airport and only 3km from O'Connell street.

MJohnston · 26-07-2018 3:02pm

Did we have a silent purge? Oh well. Here was my response to a deleted post, still makes enough sense on its own (comparison between the apparently combined 56a/150 frequency and the new 20):

The new 20 is only replacing the 150, the 56a has a completely different route from both of those (and is extremely well served by the D spine).

So, at midday the comparison is actually:
150 = 20 minute frequency.
20 = 30 minute frequency.

I think the important thing is that peak-hour frequency is the same at 15 minutes, and if you look at the areas in context, there's a big improvement to frequency and simplicity in the network in most of the areas served by the 150 beyond just what the new 20 offers.

Bray Head · 26-07-2018 4:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

II'll also be gaining access to the new O route and one of the N orbitals, both of which will be fantastic for accessing the airport, currently unfeasible by public transport(over an hour journey time) despite my house being only 6km from the airport and only 3km from O'Connell street.

This is very important. Current accessibility to the airport from most of the northside via Dublin Bus is atrocious.

This particularly affects the several thousand people who travel to the airport each day for work.

cgcsb · 26-07-2018 4:23pm

Bray Head wrote: »

This is very important. Current accessibility to the airport from most of the northside via Dublin Bus is atrocious.

This particularly affects the several thousand people who travel to the airport each day for work.

It really is a travesty, Ballymun to the airport by bus is pretty much undoable at present everywhere from the north circular road to Santry except places along the N1 basically have to go to O'Connell Street to get a bus to the airport, journeys of 2 hours are possible, most people will have walked to the airport in that time, bags and all.

L1011 · 26-07-2018 5:58pm

Ex-FF councillor running his mouth off in last weeks local paper has done it again. Doesn't understand the spine and is insisting everyone has to change bus in Lucan.

Also asks "should we just bypass Dublin Bus and go straight to the NTA?". YES! What has he been doing for the past few years?

devnull · 26-07-2018 6:10pm

Have to say in hindsight the NTA should have held the consultations much sooner after the report had been released. What is happening in the meantime is that rumour and misinformation is being allowed to spread a lot and by the time the meetings come up it will be quite hard to turn this around since there is so much of it.

Jarrett Walker seems to be getting fed up with it as well judging by his twitter.

Another scaremongering article here
https://lovindublin.com/news/dublin-bus-routes-cancelled:

Stephen15 · 26-07-2018 6:23pm

They just don't get it

SG317 · 26-07-2018 7:05pm

devnull wrote:

Jarrett Walker seems to be getting fed up with it as well judging by his twitter.

Quite frankly he seems to be getting more arrogant. He really needs to work on his sales technique. He acts as if he is the Dublin commuter's saviour and comes across as entitled and unwilling to accept critism of the plan. He should leave his consultant Dan Costantino to do all the PR. He actually knows how to deal with the public and does not come across as a self serving and disconnected. He also has actually answered the publics questions and acknowledged certain flaws with the plan. Jarret Walker, to be honest has not done any good in selling the plan apart to the already pro-bus connects people.

SG317 · 26-07-2018 7:08pm

devnull wrote:

Another scaremongering article here

Apart from being rather poorly written, the article is actually correct. Those routes are being scrapped in parts with no replacement, except perhaps the 9. 33X is scrapped. Hardly scaremongering, more like outlining routes that will be withdrawn in part or full.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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