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Now ye're talking - to a man living in Qatar
Comments
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I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Hi
I gave a fairly detailed answer in the post that you referenced, and I'm happy to continue to engage with you, but I would ask you to be respectful and to put a bit of effort into your own posts.
You fairly much whitewashed it in your reply and seem to think it's disrespectful to call you out on it.
Here's Amnesty's view on it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/03/qatar-world-cup-of-shame/
Human Rights Pulse
https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/exploitation-of-migrant-workers-ahead-of-the-2022-qatar-fifa-world-cup
World Politic Review.
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/28265/ahead-of-the-2022-world-cup-in-qatar-migrant-workers-continue-to-die
Magar’s death follows a disturbing pattern for migrant workers in the Gulf. Toiling in the heat, hundreds of laborers die every year from what the government labels “natural causes.”
An updated Amnesty report.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/02/reality-check-migrant-workers-rights-with-two-years-to-qatar-2022-world-cup/
Do you believe Amnesty, The Guardian, human rights groups worldwide are fabricating these reports?? Or is it just, it doesn't effect me so I'm not bothered. People are being worked to death in the blistering heat and you are talking how good the health system is. I very much doubt the slave owners care about the health of their charges. Cheap to replace.0 -
Great AMA.
Very informative and interesting.0 -
You fairly much whitewashed it in your reply and seem to think it's disrespectful to call you out on it.
Here's Amnesty's view on it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/03/qatar-world-cup-of-shame/
Human Rights Pulse
https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/exploitation-of-migrant-workers-ahead-of-the-2022-qatar-fifa-world-cup
World Politic Review.
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/28265/ahead-of-the-2022-world-cup-in-qatar-migrant-workers-continue-to-die
Magar’s death follows a disturbing pattern for migrant workers in the Gulf. Toiling in the heat, hundreds of laborers die every year from what the government labels “natural causes.”
An updated Amnesty report.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/02/reality-check-migrant-workers-rights-with-two-years-to-qatar-2022-world-cup/
Do you believe Amnesty, The Guardian, human rights groups worldwide are fabricating these reports?? Or is it just, it doesn't effect me so I'm not bothered. People are being worked to death in the blistering heat and you are talking how good the health system is. I very much doubt the slave owners care about the health of their charges. Cheap to replace.
I don't think it would help if I started to pick and choose from the articles that you have cited - so I'm going to accept them all as honest accounts.
But I would make two observations:
Firstly, many of the stories are based on anecdotes about individuals, and I'm certain that some individuals have had an appalling experience in Qatar. But the case needs to be made that these anecdotes are representative, rather than the exceptions. When you have 1.8m workers there are bound to be some instances of poor treatment, but the death rate among manual workers in Qatar is low. take a look at my post #43 in detail. If you think there are factual errors in my analysis please identify them - I'll happily change the post;
Secondly, Amnesty and The Guardian, are no more unbiased than the Cato Institute and Fox News. They are a lobby group with a particular agenda and a media group with a particular bias. Neither Amnesty not the Guardian has any notable expertise in the area of workers rights and neither has any personnel on the ground in Qatar. The Global Organisation that does have responsibility for workers rights, and is supported by workers through their unions, is the International Labour Organisation. They are here on the ground in Qatar:
https://www.ilo.org/beirut/projects/qatar-office/WCMS_760466/lang--en/index.htm
To answer your question about whether reports are fabricated I'm happy to accept the numbers as being correct, but I do think that the Guardian and others who cite these numbers do so in the knowledge that most people don't understand the numbers, and in order to manipulate opinion.
So it is correct, but not the truth, to say that "Toiling in the heat, hundreds of laborers die every year". The truth is that in any given year hundreds of men out of 1.8m will die, regardless of what they are doing, and if they die in Qatar it will be hot.0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »The truth is that in any given year hundreds of men out of 1.8m will die, regardless of what they are doing, and if they die in Qatar it will be hot.
And that's me bailing from this thread. Enjoy the privileged life though... :rolleyes:0 -
When I look back over the past 7 pages it strikes me that a reader might think that the answers I have given represent the sum total of my views about Qatar, they do not, they're just the answers (to the best of my ability) to the questions that I got.
With a couple of exceptions they suggest to me that the average Irish person knows as much about Qatar as the average Qatari knows about Ireland, which I guess is hardly surprising.
Because of the questions that I got and answered I think a reader might think that my purpose is to defend Qatar - it isn't, but nobody has asked me to talk about what I dislike about Qatar.
So I'm going to have a think about that, and if anyone has a question in that space I'll be happy to reply.0 -
What do you dislike about Qatar?0
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You could live in the best country in the world where everyone gets paid millions per week and I guarantee you there would still be some paddy on the end of a keyboard waiting to give out to you assuming that you are the anti-christ and how dare you work for A B or C!!!!!
I have friends that spent 10 years in Qatar, one of the victims of the scale back of the airline business and he loved it. You love it too and I hope you are happy with your life. Thanks for doing this.0 -
do you keep your money in a qatari bank or send it home to an irish bank or something? and if you have it all there when you are coming home will you be taxed on having that money in Ireland? Not really a question specific to the place but just the concept of going away to make money and coming home with it0
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I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Hi and thank you for these three (fairly meaty) questions. I’ll do my best!
So then, turning to Al Jazeera, the English language version is one of my main TV news sources along with the BBC, CNN and Euronews. That version is the same version as you'll find in hotel rooms all over the world. The Arabic version of Al Jazeera carries much more local news and the allegation of critics is that the broadly neutral stance of the English version is not replicated in the Arabic version, which is a tool of Qatari foreign policy. I really don't know if that is true because I don't speak Arabic, but it is plausible. Al Jazzeera is certainly not independent in the sense that the BBC might be considered to be. Qatar is a monarchy and Al Jazeera was founded and is controlled by the Royal family. As against that most of the countries that criticise Al Jazeera for bias have completely cowed their domestic media and tend not to brook adverse comment from any quarter. I'm sorry if this answer is an unsatisfactory, but it's the best I can offer.
(BTW the shopping mall that you visited was probably Villagio? It's still there - I live about a 5-minute drive away from it).
Yeah thats what I was getting at- that al Jazeera in English is a good source of Middle Eastern news but was wondering what it is like when in Arabic reporting on regional affairs. I know back in the Arab Spring in 2011 Libyans, Tunisians and Egyptians depended on it as there was State tv was controlled by the government who obviously werent going to show live footage of the revolutions happening in the city centres so locals had to find out what was going on in their own country via Qatar and al-Jazeera. iirc Egypt was even trying to get the channel blocked at one stage. AFAIK the Qataris have made enemies regionally because of al Jazeeras broadcasting over the heads of governments.
The shopping centre in Doha, I cant remember the name of it but back in 2006 it was the only really big one in the whole city and was perhaps just 2 or 3 years old at that point. At that time Doha had maybe about 30 or 40 skyscrapers and construction on the paved corniche was not long completed. Id imagine if I went back now it has literally hundreds of skyscrapers and lots of other infrastructure. I stayed in a YHA youth hostel about 2km from downtown and remember everywhere around the area new roads were getting laid. I pitied the Indian/Bangladeshi lads working in 40+ degree heat and shovelling hot tarmac, the sweat was absolutely dripping off them.
Thats a good plan with dropping the stadiums down to 20,000 seaters in the aftermath of the World Cup. If you are happening to pass by any of them it would be great if you could take a photo and post it up here.
Just one other question on the Qatari royal family- how big is 'the royal family' itself? In Saudi they number around 15,000 people, is the Qatari royal family similar or a lot smaller than that. Would you ever see the main players out and about at functions or are they largely holed up in their palaces0 -
How do you manage the Summer Temps, I have been to Qatar, a couple of years ago I worked on a year long Middle Eastern project, mainly Dubai, Qatar, Egypt. In the height of summer it is simply too hot to be outside and I found that going from A/c Hotel to A/c Car to Indoor A/c restaurant or shopping center to be pretty boring after a while. It really is impossible to go outside comfortably for months at a time. What does your family do during the exceptionally hot summer? That said Oct-Mar is the flipside and the weather is fantastic.0
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My question is right in the first sentence of my post, you can't miss it:I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Thanks for your contribution. Despite this being an “AMA” thread I can’t actually see any question in your post.
If you want to have a debate about the merits and demerits of globalisation please start another thread somewhere and I’ll happily join you. You might find that we have more in common than you think. But the debate about globalisation is no more relevant to the situation in Qatar than it is to Ireland or any other country.
Meanwhile, seeing as you didn’t ask me any questions, let me ask you some:
1. You say that Qatar is “known for its human rights abuses”. What are you talking about? Would you like to post links to evidence? I’ll be happy to respond if I can;
2. You say “Normally people who are aware of the ethical problems of globalization don't use them as an excuse to ignore other ethical problems or draw false equivalencies...”. So what do you think is the ‘normal” reaction to the ethical problems of globalisation? For example, have you gotten rid of all your clothes made in sweatshops in Bangladesh? Have you stopped using smartphones that are made using cobalt mined by children in the DRC? Have you stopped drinking coffee harvested by wage slaves?
You talk about “forced labour” in your post. I cannot say this any more simply than this - There is no forced labour in Qatar. None. Absolutely zero.
All of the people who work in Qatar, from the lowest manual labourer to the highest paid CEO, came here of their own free will and in the full knowledge of the terms and conditions. There are no gangs of Qataris roaming the streets of Pakistan or Nepal press-ganging people into servitude in the Gulf. The workers from South Asia who are here come from impoverished villages and towns in their home countries, places that have been sending workers to the Gulf for generations. If the economic conditions in their home countries are such that they believe that toiling in the Gulf is a better option for them then is due to the fact that their home countries have failed their citizens. You can’t lay that at the door of the Qataris.
(I digress, but in some respects I think this situation is a lot like the plight of the Irish navvies who toiled for generations in England).
There used to be forced labour in Qatar, I have heard it said that when the Emir of Qatar attended the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in 1953 he brought some slaves with him. Actual slaves. There was a general manumission shortly thereafter, and the former slaves were given full Qatari citizenship. If it is forced labour that makes the Qataris rich now, how come they were so desperately poor when they had slaves? The wealth of Qatar is not based on “forced labour” but on the enormous hydrocarbon riches that it possesses. Labourers from Asia do not work in the oil and gas fields in any great numbers. Those resources are extracted by Exxon, Total, Qatar Petroleum etc. And the people who do the extraction are generally well-paid technicians and engineers. You don’t use semi-literate manual workers to build a Liquid Natural Gas plant.
There are approx 1m manual workers in Qatar, many of whom do work in construction. There are huge infrastructure programmes building highways, a port, 4 Metro lines, desalination plants, sewage treatment plants, area cooling plants, the World Cup stadiums etc. It is on these projects that the majority of manual labourers work. These projects are financed and managed by the government or government agencies.
The Qataris certainly use cheap labour, but they pay well by the standards of the countries where these workers come from. You say that the “wealth of Qatar is literally built upon forced labor”. I think you could just as easily say that some of the wealth of Qatar ends up putting food on the table for millions of dependents in Asia.
Let’s say for a moment that you could somehow force the Qataris to quadruple salaries. If you did, they would no longer recruit lower skilled workers from South Asia. The market will find its new equilibrium, and instead the workers would come from comparatively wealthier countries such as Egypt and Morocco.
The families of the workers in South Asia might not however appreciate the price that they would pay to assuage your sensibilities.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116864354#post116864354
You brought up globalization, not me, when you posted this:I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »...
Secondly, you can certainly make the argument that any Westerner who moves to countries like Qatar or the UAE are complicit in the human rights atrocities committed by the local regime, but if you are to be fair you must also accept that anyone who buys a shirt made in the sweatshops of Bangladesh, or owns a smartphone with cobalt mined by children in DRC, or drinks lattes made from coffee harvested by wage slaves is equally complicit in those human rights atrocities. The world is enormously unfair and all of us white western posters on Boards.ie live lives that depend upon the exploitation of others.
...
1: The human rights abuses, particularly against migrants, are extensively documented:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/08/24/qatar-little-progress-protecting-migrant-workers
https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/08/24/how-can-we-work-without-wages/salary-abuses-facing-migrant-workers-ahead-qatars
2: You seem to have willfully missed the point: The morally compromising effects of globalization don't morally justify ignoring the human rights abuses specific to Qatar.
By any credible moral framework, it is objectively morally worse to willingly participate in and benefit from the exploitation inherent in Qatar's economy, than it is to be unable to avoid the morally compromising effects of globalization (the latter affects almost every economy in the world, to the point that nobody has a choice in their involvement - which is not the case with choosing to live in Qatar).
No forced labour in Qatar? Well, Human Rights Watch and the very people actually working in Qatar disagree with you - from the above links:Martin and Joseph say they wish they could go home. The new contract is no better than a “jail sentence.”But Martin believes he is under too much debt to go home, a debt he took to come to Qatar. “This is slavery. We are stuck in these jobs because of laws and signatures that keep us here. What is freedom? Freedom is talking to people, mingling with people, going to places when you feel like it, choosing your job, getting paid fairly, I cannot do any of this. I’m not allowed to talk to anyone, not the locals, not the tourists. It’s such a hard life out here. We are trapped here,” said Martin.I have more respect for people who just say "fuck it, I don't care about human rights abuses, I just do it for the money..." - as at least then they are honest about what it is and aren't playing down conditions and human rights abuses.0 -
My question is right in the first sentence of my post, you can't miss it:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116864354#post116864354
You brought up globalization, not me, when you posted this:
1: The human rights abuses, particularly against migrants, are extensively documented:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/08/24/qatar-little-progress-protecting-migrant-workers
https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/08/24/how-can-we-work-without-wages/salary-abuses-facing-migrant-workers-ahead-qatars
2: You seem to have willfully missed the point: The morally compromising effects of globalization don't morally justify ignoring the human rights abuses specific to Qatar.
By any credible moral framework, it is objectively morally worse to willingly participate in and benefit from the exploitation inherent in Qatar's economy, than it is to be unable to avoid the morally compromising effects of globalization (the latter affects almost every economy in the world, to the point that nobody has a choice in their involvement - which is not the case with choosing to live in Qatar).
No forced labour in Qatar? Well, Human Rights Watch and the very people actually working in Qatar disagree with you - from the above links:Martin and Joseph say they wish they could go home. The new contract is no better than a “jail sentence.”But Martin believes he is under too much debt to go home, a debt he took to come to Qatar. “This is slavery. We are stuck in these jobs because of laws and signatures that keep us here. What is freedom? Freedom is talking to people, mingling with people, going to places when you feel like it, choosing your job, getting paid fairly, I cannot do any of this. I’m not allowed to talk to anyone, not the locals, not the tourists. It’s such a hard life out here. We are trapped here,” said Martin.I have more respect for people who just say "fuck it, I don't care about human rights abuses, I just do it for the money..." - as at least then they are honest about what it is and aren't playing down conditions and human rights abuses.
Thread is like the WC on a smaller scale. A whitewash of the horrendous treatment of migrant workers in Qatar. Expect more and more as the WC gets closer. Much like the Saudi "bees" we'll see more and more "non-Qatari's" bigging up the country in the lead up to the sportswash.0 -
Boards.ie Community ManagerJoin Date:Posts: 10871
Fandymo and KyussB, if you are not posting a question then don't post. Neither of the last two posts are asking a question.
Everyone, please also note that the thread is for asking our guest about his personal experiences, not to answer for how entire industries there operate.0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »I think perhaps you are not appreciating that I and my family live in a world that is almost hermetically sealed from Arabic and Muslim culture - largely because that is how our hosts want it.
My daughter went to a fantastic international school, has just aced the International Baccalaureate, and is already accepted into a prestigious European university.
Growing up in a multicultural environment in Qatar has broadened her perspectives and has given her far more choices in life than if we had stayed in Ireland.
I certainly came here for the money, but the real long-term benefit has been the experience and opportunities that all of our children have had.
Hi, my question is not meant to be antagonistic, but do you see a conflict between the 2 statements in bold above?
And, aside from that, why do you think that your hosts might want to keep 'outsiders' isolated so much from what is the essence of the country?
I came here to ask if Qatari people are familiar with the view that many in European/Western countries have of their state and are do they ordinary man on the street feel it is a fair representation of their country or not but I suspect, that interacting with the locals to the point of having such conversations is not something which generally happens. Is that fair to say?0 -
Is there anything simple you miss from home that you just can't get there.
A bag of Tayto.
A bottle of Lucozade.
A decent fry up.0 -
What do you dislike about Qatar?
Hi, and thank you for this surprise question!
So, in no particular order, the things that I dislike about Qatar are:
Racism
Qatar is a very racist society and some of the blame for that must be directed towards the Qataris. They have created a caste system with themselves at the top, Westerners and other Arabs next, Filipinos and Indians and other South Asians below that (this is not strictly a caste system as in India, but similar). Each person is valued (and paid) in accordance with their ethnicity and nationality. If there are two accountants doing the same job, with the same qualifications, and one is British and one Indian, the British one will be paid more (perhaps twice as much.
Law & Order
The laws of Qatar are applied to Qataris completely differently to non-Qataris. A good rule to live by is never get into an argument with a Qatari. If the police and the courts become involved you will lose, and will probably be deported.
Carbon Footprint
Residents of Qatar have the highest carbon footprint in the world. When you take into account the oil and gas industries, the constant air-conditioning, the gas-guzzlers, the level of international travel etc. Qatar is off the scale as far as damage to the planet is concerned.
Monarchy
Westerners are used to democracy, to robust debate, to a certain irreverence towards our leaders. This does not apply in Qatar. There is no lèse-majesté law (AFAIK) but it is very firmly a command economy directed by the hereditary ruler.
Materialism
There is a lot of conspicuous consumption in Qatar (and not only by the Qataris). Perhaps this serves to bring into even sharper focus the difference between those who have a lot and those who have comparatively little.
Lack of culture
Qatar is a new country and until recently very poor. There is very little by was of cultural depth to draw upon. Add to this the fact that many adherents of Wahhabi Islam frowns upon music, poetry, visual arts etc. and it can all make for a very boring environment (the Philharmonic is a notable oasis in this cultural desert).0 -
frozenfrozen wrote: »do you keep your money in a qatari bank or send it home to an irish bank or something? and if you have it all there when you are coming home will you be taxed on having that money in Ireland? Not really a question specific to the place but just the concept of going away to make money and coming home with it
Very few foreigners keep their money (apart from an operating float) in Qatar and I am the same.
I'm not a tax expert, but if you return to Ireland with cash earned abroad you will not be taxed on it. If you use that money to buy a house and rent if out you will be taxed on that rental income.0 -
Yeah thats what I was getting at- that al Jazeera in English is a good source of Middle Eastern news but was wondering what it is like when in Arabic reporting on regional affairs. I know back in the Arab Spring in 2011 Libyans, Tunisians and Egyptians depended on it as there was State tv was controlled by the government who obviously werent going to show live footage of the revolutions happening in the city centres so locals had to find out what was going on in their own country via Qatar and al-Jazeera. iirc Egypt was even trying to get the channel blocked at one stage. AFAIK the Qataris have made enemies regionally because of al Jazeeras broadcasting over the heads of governments.
The shopping centre in Doha, I cant remember the name of it but back in 2006 it was the only really big one in the whole city and was perhaps just 2 or 3 years old at that point. At that time Doha had maybe about 30 or 40 skyscrapers and construction on the paved corniche was not long completed. Id imagine if I went back now it has literally hundreds of skyscrapers and lots of other infrastructure. I stayed in a YHA youth hostel about 2km from downtown and remember everywhere around the area new roads were getting laid. I pitied the Indian/Bangladeshi lads working in 40+ degree heat and shovelling hot tarmac, the sweat was absolutely dripping off them.
Thats a good plan with dropping the stadiums down to 20,000 seaters in the aftermath of the World Cup. If you are happening to pass by any of them it would be great if you could take a photo and post it up here.
Just one other question on the Qatari royal family- how big is 'the royal family' itself? In Saudi they number around 15,000 people, is the Qatari royal family similar or a lot smaller than that. Would you ever see the main players out and about at functions or are they largely holed up in their palaces
I think there are several thousand Al Thanis, you won't come across the senior royals very much, but others more distant from the centre can be found in almost every organisation.
The Emir and other senior royals are often photographed out and about, whether it is attending a formal event, or dining out in a restaurant.0 -
How do you manage the Summer Temps, I have been to Qatar, a couple of years ago I worked on a year long Middle Eastern project, mainly Dubai, Qatar, Egypt. In the height of summer it is simply too hot to be outside and I found that going from A/c Hotel to A/c Car to Indoor A/c restaurant or shopping center to be pretty boring after a while. It really is impossible to go outside comfortably for months at a time. What does your family do during the exceptionally hot summer? That said Oct-Mar is the flipside and the weather is fantastic.
Hi and thanks for the question.
I'm afraid that the answer is also in your question, I go from A/c Hotel to A/c Car to Indoor A/c restaurant or shopping center and it is pretty boring. In other years I managed to spend August in Europe and I'm really hoping this will be possible this year too. When the kids were smaller my wife took them to Europe for the whole summer and I joined as much as I could.0 -
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My question is right in the first sentence of my post, you can't miss it:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116864354#post116864354
You brought up globalization, not me, when you posted this:
1: The human rights abuses, particularly against migrants, are extensively documented:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/08/24/qatar-little-progress-protecting-migrant-workers
https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/08/24/how-can-we-work-without-wages/salary-abuses-facing-migrant-workers-ahead-qatars
2: You seem to have willfully missed the point: The morally compromising effects of globalization don't morally justify ignoring the human rights abuses specific to Qatar.
By any credible moral framework, it is objectively morally worse to willingly participate in and benefit from the exploitation inherent in Qatar's economy, than it is to be unable to avoid the morally compromising effects of globalization (the latter affects almost every economy in the world, to the point that nobody has a choice in their involvement - which is not the case with choosing to live in Qatar).
No forced labour in Qatar? Well, Human Rights Watch and the very people actually working in Qatar disagree with you - from the above links:Martin and Joseph say they wish they could go home. The new contract is no better than a “jail sentence.”But Martin believes he is under too much debt to go home, a debt he took to come to Qatar. “This is slavery. We are stuck in these jobs because of laws and signatures that keep us here. What is freedom? Freedom is talking to people, mingling with people, going to places when you feel like it, choosing your job, getting paid fairly, I cannot do any of this. I’m not allowed to talk to anyone, not the locals, not the tourists. It’s such a hard life out here. We are trapped here,” said Martin.I have more respect for people who just say "fuck it, I don't care about human rights abuses, I just do it for the money..." - as at least then they are honest about what it is and aren't playing down conditions and human rights abuses.
I think that you have a particular prejudice and, supported by anecdotes but ignoring facts, you are determined to stick to it.
There is a fair degree of incoherence to your arguments that makes it difficult to respond. I mean what does "By any credible moral framework, it is objectively morally worse to willingly participate in and benefit from the exploitation inherent in Qatar's economy, than it is to be unable to avoid the morally compromising effects of globalization" even mean?
It also takes a fair degree of intellectual arrogance to rationalise that the only explanation for why another person might disagree with you (even though they offer facts - and not anecdotes - to back up their argument) is that they are willfully missing the point.
I think you are willfully ignoring the facts because they do not support your prejudice. I'll go further and give that prejudice a name - racism.
Our entire western way of life is built upon the exploitation of the other people who live on this planet, and in that regard the Irish are as guilty as anyone else. The demonisation of the Qataris for the sins that we all commit is not therefore based on objective reality, could it be based on the fact that they are just a little too brown, a little too rich, and a little too Muslim?0 -
Tell me how wrote: »Hi, my question is not meant to be antagonistic, but do you see a conflict between the 2 statements in bold above?
And, aside from that, why do you think that your hosts might want to keep 'outsiders' isolated so much from what is the essence of the country?
I came here to ask if Qatari people are familiar with the view that many in European/Western countries have of their state and are do they ordinary man on the street feel it is a fair representation of their country or not but I suspect, that interacting with the locals to the point of having such conversations is not something which generally happens. Is that fair to say?
Hi.
I do see the conflict between the two statements. The world is full of conflicts and ambiguities, most are never resolved.
The reason why Qataris keep to themselves is, I presume, because they see that as the only way of preserving their identity in a country where they represent jus 10% of the population.
Western media is freely available in Qatar and (apart from pornography) the internet is not censored, so Qataris are well aware of how their nation is portrayed in the media. We can however become a little Euro-centric on this point. They probably care at least as much about how they are portrayed in Arabic and Turkish media. I think that they also have a belief (rightly or wrongly) that the main reason most people/countries like them or dislike them is because of their wealth.
I think that Qataris might speak more freely about politics and society in Arabic, probably at the majlis, than in English with a westerner.0 -
Is there anything simple you miss from home that you just can't get there.
A bag of Tayto.
A bottle of Lucozade.
A decent fry up.
Family of course, especially since lockdown.
Yes, Taytos.
I can get decent sausages and rashers but the B&W puddings are terrible.
The other thing that I look forward to when home is a decent pint in the afternoon in a proper Victorian bar.0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Family of course, especially since lockdown.
Yes, Taytos.
I can get decent sausages and rashers but the B&W puddings are terrible.
The other thing that I look forward to when home is a decent pint in the afternoon in a proper Victorian bar.
We had 2 kegs of Guinness last week at an Irish function. They last 90 minutes and Khalas! They were only lovely!0 -
Thanks for doing the AMA! Was there any particular reason you ended up in Qatar instead of one of the other countries in the region such as the UAE?
Other than salary and the chance to travel, what were the main pros and cons you considered at the time in deciding to move out there rather than staying in Ireland or at least Europe? Did those factors work out the way you expected, or was there anything that ended up being a pleasant / unpleasant surprise?0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Family of course, especially since lockdown.
Yes, Taytos.
I can get decent sausages and rashers but the B&W puddings are terrible.
The other thing that I look forward to when home is a decent pint in the afternoon in a proper Victorian bar.
I had a package of Salt and Vinegar tayto sent to me
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Thanks for doing the AMA. It's very interesting, I think because, while many westerners work in the Middle East for a time, it's perhaps relatively rare to be there for as long or, if you don't mind me saying, at your more advanced stage of your career.
Just a few questions:
Do you have a pension setup with your company on top of your salary, or is it simply the case that due to your wages you don't feel you will need one?
In terms of your next stage of life, how easy or otherwise do you expect to find it to adjust to relocating back to Europe? Are you likely to choose a location where there is a similar distance between the "ex-pats" and the locals, such as the south of Spain, or will you prefer to move somewhere where there are more opportunities to immerse yourself in the local culture?
Any finally, do your children consider themselves Irish, Qatari, or of no particular national identity (I assume they are Irish citizens, but my question is more identity based)? Do you/they see them returning to Qatar to live after you leave, or returning to Ireland, or more likely neither of the above?
Thanks.0 -
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Once again. Interesting questions and answers. Thanks.0 -
A great read and you have answered the questions in a very nice manner.
Going back to the blockade and its after effects - I believe Qatar has made a big push to become more self sufficient. I remember reading a few years back of an Irish farm manager being employed to run a massive dairy operation out there built from scratch with the cows being imported and housed in automated air conditioned units.
When the gas runs out (or the demand for it does) is the country any way set up to rely on tourism or other sector?
Would you ever worry that your children will have no proper roots? That they may resent you for giving them the childhood they are receiving? You do say you will retire to Europe so I presume they will have to rebase themselves there rather than going back to Ireland?
A great read, well done.
Edit - I actually found a link to that farm manager in Qatar.
Meet the Irishman helping Qatar import 10,000 cows
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/dairy-farm-profiles/meet-the-irishman-helping-qatar-import-10000-cows-36286922.html0 -
Still a fascinating thread.
OP, when I lived and worked abroad (in the Middle East and Far East), I did it for the culture, travel and money. However, I always felt I was waiting to "go home" in the future. I feel I wasted some of these years and some of my youth, longing to be home in Ireland and regret not simply enjoying the day to day life in another culture. Do you ever feel like this? Are you putting a lot of emphasis on a great future/retirement in Europe/Ireland and as a result missing the "now"?
Also, will you be entitled to healthcare in whatever country you retire to?0 -
When was the last time you were at a gaa match? Is your local club any good?0
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Deleted User wrote: »UAE resident here. I would like to ask you about your experience of raising Irish kids in Qatar. My kids were born in the UAE and are both under 5.
One has recently been diagnosed with low-level special needs (which he might grow out of). It's already obvious that we are much better off in the UAE than in Ireland in terms of access to inclusion support in school (but across many other dimensions, too).
My question is geared towards the long term implications of raising older western kids and teens in the middle east. Rightly or wrongly, I am operating with the view that I must repatriate to Ireland before my eldest reaches 10 years of age.
This view was formed by anecdotes gleaned from others that older kids found it very difficult to leave the UAE / Qatar to return to the relative dullness of Ireland. Resentment often ensued, damaging the parent-child relationship.
Others have said that children will gain a thoroughly unrealistic sense of life by feeding from the silver spoon that Qatar and the UAE provide; that they won't ever get to appreciate the value of money, or gain the important life experience of summer and weekend work; and that most importantly, they will remain as "third culture kids" and never feel that they belong anywhere.
What do you think of all this? Lately I have been questioning the wisdom of my views, particularly in light of Ireland's response to Covid, the poor health service, poor schools, crime, and the persistent attraction of emigration to Irish youth (including me in my day).
I am curious about this too. We also live in the UAE although returning home isnt a factor right now, we do talk about what will be the determining factor and I think it will be kids.0 -
Good morning and Ramadan Mubarak.
Thanks for doing this.0 -
Thanks for doing the AMA! Was there any particular reason you ended up in Qatar instead of one of the other countries in the region such as the UAE?
Other than salary and the chance to travel, what were the main pros and cons you considered at the time in deciding to move out there rather than staying in Ireland or at least Europe? Did those factors work out the way you expected, or was there anything that ended up being a pleasant / unpleasant surprise?
Hi and thank you for your question.
I was not actively looking for a job. I got a cold-call from a recruitment agency. I hadn't therefore been looking at other jurisdictions, but I had always wanted to live and work abroad, and my wife and family were also open to the idea, so when this opportunity came along it was not hard to consider.
Regarding the other pros and cons, well I really just wanted to experience a different country and culture, and Qatar certainly ticks that box. For the most part it has been a good sojourn. We originally came with a 3-year stint in mind and we're still here 10 years later. We were really delighted that the education available to the children was of such a high standard. Had that not been the case I think we would not have stayed regardless of the salary. As for unpleasant surprises, I did a post earlier about things I dislike about Qatar. If I had to pick a single one it would be the casual racism.0 -
Cosmo Kramer wrote: »Thanks for doing the AMA. It's very interesting, I think because, while many westerners work in the Middle East for a time, it's perhaps relatively rare to be there for as long or, if you don't mind me saying, at your more advanced stage of your career.
Just a few questions:
Do you have a pension setup with your company on top of your salary, or is it simply the case that due to your wages you don't feel you will need one?
In terms of your next stage of life, how easy or otherwise do you expect to find it to adjust to relocating back to Europe? Are you likely to choose a location where there is a similar distance between the "ex-pats" and the locals, such as the south of Spain, or will you prefer to move somewhere where there are more opportunities to immerse yourself in the local culture?
Any finally, do your children consider themselves Irish, Qatari, or of no particular national identity (I assume they are Irish citizens, but my question is more identity based)? Do you/they see them returning to Qatar to live after you leave, or returning to Ireland, or more likely neither of the above?
Thanks.
Hi and thank you for these questions.
I was about 50 when I came to Qatar, with 30 years of contributions into an Irish pension which remains intact. I will have no pension from my work in Qatar. So while the salaries may look strong in the Middle East you will need to factor in that you will have to put some of that aside to supplement (or indeed commence) your retirement kitty.
If I have one piece of advice to any person relocating to the Middle East it is to steer well clear of "financial advisers" - they will fleece you. If you need financial advice go to someone in Ireland and insist that you will pay them a fee rather than allowing them to be paid by commission. This is so important that I'm going to put it in BOLD!.
When we retire I do not think that we will live, permanently at least, in Ireland. Because of their education and experiences I think it is likely that our children will settle in continental Europe. The idea of a small house with a lemon grove in Spain is very appealing - but we haven't decided yet. However even if we go to Spain we would prefer to live in a Spanish community (even if I know I'll struggle with the language) than in an expat community. We would not live apart from other expats, but I have no desire (as some do) to recreate their homeland in the sun.
My children do consider themselves to be Irish and it is a very important part of their identity, but it also has to be said that they don't have a word of Irish, and have never studied Irish history at school. They will study at European Universities because, bizarrely, they I don't qualify for EU fees in Ireland, but they do qualify for EU fees in European Universities. I would have liked them to have had the possibility of studying in Ireland, but that is Ireland's loss and frankly the Universities in Europe that they attend are far better on the Times rankings.
I don't think that they will come to work in Qatar immediately after graduation mainly because salaries for new graduates are not great. It is a better idea to get some work experience, and maybe a graduate degree, before coming here. However they certainly might work in Qatar - or the broader region- at some point in the future.0 -
Tigerandahalf wrote: »A great read and you have answered the questions in a very nice manner.
Going back to the blockade and its after effects - I believe Qatar has made a big push to become more self sufficient. I remember reading a few years back of an Irish farm manager being employed to run a massive dairy operation out there built from scratch with the cows being imported and housed in automated air conditioned units.
When the gas runs out (or the demand for it does) is the country any way set up to rely on tourism or other sector?
Would you ever worry that your children will have no proper roots? That they may resent you for giving them the childhood they are receiving? You do say you will retire to Europe so I presume they will have to rebase themselves there rather than going back to Ireland?
A great read, well done.
Edit - I actually found a link to that farm manager in Qatar.
Meet the Irishman helping Qatar import 10,000 cows
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/dairy-farm-profiles/meet-the-irishman-helping-qatar-import-10000-cows-36286922.html
I actually met and had a pint with that farm manager, John Dore - a perfect gentleman, with lots of great stories to tell.
The story about the dairy farm is quite incredible, built at speed from nothing. It was just one part of the broader food security programme which included buying huge tracts of farmland in places like Australia and South America etc to raise animals (mainly beef and sheep) for the market in Qatar.
Regarding the gas it is not likely to run out for some time. I'm not an expert, but I believe that LNG is seen as being the cleanest hydrocarbon, and as part of the bridge between our current energy systems and a cleaner future. The size of the main gas field is something of a state secret, but it is clearly vast in scale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pars/North_Dome_Gas-Condensate_field
Because of the distance to markets, and some unfriendly neighbours, using pipelines to get the gas to customers was not an option. Early on the Qataris invested heavily in the technology needed to cool, liquify and ship natural gas. They have long-term supply contracts with many countries, but especially valuable contracts with Japan and Korea.
There is one gas pipeline - they pipe gas through Saudi Arabia to the UAE (which has a lot of oil but very little gas). That supply was maintained during the blockade.
What happens when the gas runs out? We don't really know. Qatar has built a 3m person metropolis and I guess they hope that they can sit back and live off the rent. They do also want some tourism, but they won't be competing with Dubai - more like Abu Dhabi, a genteel place to spend a few days of luxury with some nice museums and galleries to help pass the time.
I do worry that my children will not have roots - but perhaps that liberates them too. They had no choice when we came to Qatar, and I cannot guess how their lives would have turned out if we had not. I can say however that we have often spoken about this, and they always say that they think we did the right thing. I do not expect that they will live in Ireland, but who knows. At their age I had never heard of Qatar!0 -
Still a fascinating thread.
OP, when I lived and worked abroad (in the Middle East and Far East), I did it for the culture, travel and money. However, I always felt I was waiting to "go home" in the future. I feel I wasted some of these years and some of my youth, longing to be home in Ireland and regret not simply enjoying the day to day life in another culture. Do you ever feel like this? Are you putting a lot of emphasis on a great future/retirement in Europe/Ireland and as a result missing the "now"?
Also, will you be entitled to healthcare in whatever country you retire to?
I think I will always want to visit Ireland - and more regularly than I have done while living in Qatar. But I'm neither sentimental nor religious. As far as I know this is the only life there is, and there is much else that I would like to see and do. I am looking forward to the next chapter (in the knowledge that the book is coming to an end).
On the healthcare question, as far as I know as an EU citizen I will be entitled to the basic health services in any EU country that we might live in. That may need to be topped up by private insurance - I don't know the specifics at this moment, partly because I don't know where we might go to. Spain looks very nice, but so too do Portugal, France and Italy. First world problems, as my kids say.0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »Hi and thank you for these questions.
They will study at European Universities because, bizarrely, they I don't qualify for EU fees in Ireland, but they do qualify for EU fees in European Universities. I would have liked them to have had the possibility of studying in Ireland, but that is Ireland's loss and frankly the Universities in Europe that they attend are far better on the Times rankings.
.
They sound like they have been very successful academically to date looking at the top universities in Europe. From your posts I had presumed they were young children.
Do you think the expat Quatari education system has provided them with a higher level of education than a standard western system?0 -
When was the last time you were at a gaa match? Is your local club any good?
Hi and thank you for the question.
I was never a huge GAA fan I'm afraid. My father could never understand how I could spend 30 years in Dublin and only go to Croke Park to see U2.
There is a vibrant and dedicated GAA club here and, they are a credit to themselves and our culture. Because there are quite a few young Irish professionals in Qatar (many in teaching) they are able to field a good team by all accounts. Pre-Covid there was a Gulf league and they travelled to play the GAA teams in Bahrain and the UAE etc. Hopefully that will start up again soon.
https://qatargaa.qa/0 -
I am curious about this too. We also live in the UAE although returning home isnt a factor right now, we do talk about what will be the determining factor and I think it will be kids.
Well the education system in the international schools here is excellent - but really expensive. If you do come here make sure your employer covers all or at least most of the education fees.
If they spend long enough here your children will become third culture kids - we were happy with that, but it is a decision for each family to make.
If this ever becomes a real option for you I'll be happy to share information and experiences with you.0 -
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They sound like they have been very successful academically to date looking at the top universities in Europe. From your posts I had presumed they were young children.
Do you think the expat Quatari education system has provided them with a higher level of education than a standard western system?
The education system offered by some, but not all, of the international schools in Qatar is on a par with top class education anywhere.
The schools that seem to fall down on standards are those that are run exclusively on a for-profit basis. Fees are high but results are often not. In many cases these schools are twinned (and carry similar names) to prestigious schools in Europe - especially British schools. But this is largely a branding exercise.
If you choose the right school, although expensive, you will get what you pay for. At the school where our kids studied the pupil teacher ration was 11 to 1. For what it is worth I think that the best schools are those that operate (at least partially) under the patronage of an Embassy - schools like the American School of Doha, Doha College (British), the Lycee Bonaparte (French) etc.0 -
Can a visitor bring in a bottle of duty free liquor? Or is that banned? Are hotel bars the only place to buy alcohol? Thanks.0
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Does that shorter day apply to all, or only some in that caste system? 40 minutes to the west of you, it only applies to those celebrating the month.0
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As somebody who lived in the Middle East for a number of years, it's depressing to see the standard tropes being rolled out - human rights abuses, women as second class citizens, religion and so on. And from my experience, no amount of reasoning with some posters will ever change their minds. The reality is far more nuanced, but hey, don't let reality get in the way of an ill-informed keyboard warrior who can pull multiple reports from Amnesty, but probably can't name five TDs in our government.
Anyway, Qatar is one country in the Middle East I never got around to visiting, for some reason, but your experiences are pretty much identical to my own. So I have two questions for you.
In this time of Ramadan, have attended an Iftar feast?
Also, have you visited any mosques?0 -
Can a visitor bring in a bottle of duty free liquor? Or is that banned? Are hotel bars the only place to buy alcohol? Thanks.
You cannot bring alcohol into Qatar.
Some (but not all) hotels have bars. A beer at full price can cost 15 Euros, but there are often happy hours and promotions.
There is also a single off-licence where expatriates can buy alcohol for home consumption:
https://www.qdc.com.qa/
There is a limit on the amount of alcohol you can buy that is related to your salary. A slab of Heineken will set you back about 60 Euros and a drinkable bottle of wine about 20 Euros - so still not cheap.0 -
Does that shorter day apply to all, or only some in that caste system? 40 minutes to the west of you, it only applies to those celebrating the month.
The answer is that it varies.
I personally have always felt that given that I'm not Muslim I'm very lucky that I get shorter hours. I work in the broad public sector, which is were most Qataris work, and so I benefit from that.
For people working in the hospitality and food sector Ramadan means that they have a very long day. Even during the fasting hours take-away is permitted and the streets are a-buzz with delivery bikes. There is no sit-down dining in Qatar at the moment, but from the break of the fast until the early hours they will be working flat-out. I don't know the hours precisely, there is a maximum number of hours that you can be required to work, but I don't know how closely that is policed in the service sector.
Shopping malls also have extended opening hours during Ramadan - they can still be mobbed at midnight, so again I think that people in retail have long days.
Other businesses (banks, utilities etc.) will usually have shorter working hours during Ramadan.0 -
What do you do for fun there? During the time when the weather is nice and not too hot.0
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As somebody who lived in the Middle East for a number of years, it's depressing to see the standard tropes being rolled out - human rights abuses, women as second class citizens, religion and so on. And from my experience, no amount of reasoning with some posters will ever change their minds. The reality is far more nuanced, but hey, don't let reality get in the way of an ill-informed keyboard warrior who can pull multiple reports from Amnesty, but probably can't name five TDs in our government.
Anyway, Qatar is one country in the Middle East I never got around to visiting, for some reason, but your experiences are pretty much identical to my own. So I have two questions for you.
In this time of Ramadan, have attended an Iftar feast?
Also, have you visited any mosques?
Thank you for your questions.
In previous years I attended many Iftars and Suhoors. Ramadan is a time for corporate entertainment in Qatar and every company will, over the course of the month, host an Iftar or Suhoor in a hotel for employees and customers. Due to Covid that did not happen last year or this year.
I have never been invited to an Iftar in a private house - these tend to be restricted to family and close friends.
I have visited a couple of mosques including, recently, the new National Mosque, where a couple of colleagues and I got a great tour and talk from a British Muslim who now lives in Qatar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab_Mosque0 -
I live in Qatar, AMA wrote: »You cannot bring alcohol into Qatar.
Some (but not all) hotels have bars. A beer at full price can cost 15 Euros, but there are often happy hours and promotions.
There is also a single off-licence where expatriates can buy alcohol for home consumption:
https://www.qdc.com.qa/
There is a limit on the amount of alcohol you can buy that is related to your salary. A slab of Heineken will set you back about 60 Euros and a drinkable bottle of wine about 20 Euros - so still not cheap.
Thanks. I don't know what will happen during the World Cup so. It will make it awkward.0 -
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What do you do for fun there? During the time when the weather is nice and not too hot.
Camping in the desert is great fun. Because you will need to go well off road you should travel in a convoy with (IMO) at least three good but not fancy 4x4s. The Australians say that if you want to go into the desert drive a Land Rover, but if you want to come back out drive a Toyota.
You can't compare Qatar to Connemara or the Golden Vale, but the desert does have a tremendous beauty of its own, and in the evening the idea of campfire songs and barbeques may sound kitsch - but it is good fun.
If you are a sports fan there are often interesting diversions. There is a good soccer league and I know several westerners who have adopted a team and love the whole experience. There is a top class (mens and womens) tennis tournament every year and tickets are really cheap. There is also a golf tournament where tickets are easily got and you can follow top players around the course much more easily than in Europe or the US.
Finally, we really love going to the Philharmonic. I'm no music buff, but sitting down 50 feet back from a full orchestra is quite an experience. Again tickets are quite affordable.0
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