Aer Lingus charges for lost property

Cloudio9 · 15-04-2019 12:16pm #1

Is this a new thing ? Aer lingus using a third party wereturnit.com to manage lost property. e.g. €60 cost to return a laptop, €30 for headphones.

Obviously there is a cost managing lost property but there's also a ticket premium flying AL over say Ryanair which a lot of people pay as there is an expectation you will be treated better. Seems a bit strange when they are upping the service levels in some areas.

OU812 · 15-04-2019 12:19pm

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:25pm

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

PCros · 15-04-2019 12:26pm

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:26pm

OU812 wrote: »

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

But the fact that this company exists solely to return lost property surely means they aren't merely covering costs, but also making a profit from it?

Cloudio9 · 15-04-2019 12:27pm

OU812 wrote: »

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

Like I said, that's a valid argument.

I would wonder if the negative impact on customer satisfaction would out weigh the savings for AL. Paying to get your own property back is something that will come as a surprise to most passengers.

Seems somewhat legally dubious also to retain someone's private property without giving an option to collect the property.

oLoonatic · 15-04-2019 12:29pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

Essentially it is what they are doing though. Its a "find and return fee". pretty reasonable. I have experience with them and are a joke of a company. will only deal over email and are very slow to respond.

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:33pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

I left my laptop on a train in England a few years back. I knew the second I stepped off the train. It was placed in the Lost & Find department back at the train station.

They charged me £20.00 to give it back. Of course I was taken aback by this and they retorted 'It costs money for us to run this section.' There seemed to a young fella there on a full time basis.

I imagine Aer Lingus will use a similar argument.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:34pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Like I said, that's a valid argument.

I would wonder if the negative impact on customer satisfaction would out weigh the savings for AL. Paying to get your own property back is something that will come as a surprise to most passengers.

Seems somewhat legally dubious also to retain someone's private property without giving an option to collect the property.

The terms and conditions make for interesting reading. From my cursory understanding of civil law, I'd be surprised if these conditions could be considered enforceable, because the rightful owner of the property would not be in a position to accept the terms until after the company have taken possession of it.

GBX · 15-04-2019 12:34pm

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

I guess this is why they are using a 3rd party as its possible the owner is gone from the country when they realise they are missing something.

If the airline loses your bag I dont see why they charge somebody a fee to return it. But if its somebody who left something behind by their own forgetfulness I see no issue in charging.

seamus · 15-04-2019 12:35pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

You've basically hinted at it there. If there is a cost associated with returning your property to you, then there is an expectation that you would cover that cost, and not the person or organisation who is in possession of it.

In this event, the person in possession of your property would be entitled to hold onto it until the costs are paid. This is called a lien and is standard in common law.

To take your laptop example, you might say, "What if I just turn up at the house to get it, they can't demand payment". Well, they might. For example, if they have to take time off work to meet you at their house, that's a cost.

In Aer Lingus's case, there is staff time and effort involved in collecting the item, recording it, and bringing it to the appropriate location for lost property. Since it would be unreasonable to try and quantify this down to the exact euro in every case, it is reasonable to apply a standard charge, or administration fee. Items which require more care than others (e.g. laptops), have a higher admin fee.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:39pm

seamus wrote: »

You've basically hinted at it there. If there is a cost associated with returning your property to you, then there is an expectation that you would cover that cost, and not the person or organisation who is in possession of it.

In this event, the person in possession of your property would be entitled to hold onto it until the costs are paid. This is called a lien and is standard in common law.

To take your laptop example, you might say, "What if I just turn up at the house to get it, they can't demand payment". Well, they might. For example, if they have to take time off work to meet you at their house, that's a cost.

In Aer Lingus's case, there is staff time and effort involved in collecting the item, recording it, and bringing it to the appropriate location for lost property. Since it would be unreasonable to try and quantify this down to the exact euro in every case, it is reasonable to apply a standard charge, or administration fee. Items which require more care than others (e.g. laptops), have a higher admin fee.

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:40pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

The terms and conditions make for interesting reading. From my cursory understanding of civil law, I'd be surprised if these conditions could be considered enforceable, because the rightful owner of the property would not be in a position to accept the terms until after the company have taken possession of it.

So what are you going to do...stand there declaring that you do not accept the T&Cs while at the same time demanding the return of your item for free that you misplaced?

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:43pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

If Aer Lingus have outsourced this issue then who is paying the third party?

It seems reasonable to charge a nominal fee for their inconvenience otherwise you are expecting all other passengers to cover the costs. The alternative is that Aer Lingus just send it all to the tip.

LiamoSail · 15-04-2019 12:45pm

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Hoboo · 15-04-2019 12:46pm

Aer Lingus to announce closure of lost and found due to costs involved and refusal of item owners to meet those costs. All lost and found items will now be considered discarded rubbish and disposed of.

I'd gladly pay €60 for the return of my laptop, more fool me for forgetting it.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:46pm

partyguinness wrote: »

If Aer Lingus have outsourced this issue then who is paying the third party?

It seems reasonable to charge a nominal fee for their inconvenience otherwise you are expecting all other passengers to cover the costs. The alternative is that Aer Lingus just send it all to the tip.

Is that what they did before they partnered with this company? No. They ran their own lost property and accepted it as part of the costs of operating a business transporting people and their property.

I don’t necessarily have a moral problem with charging to cover costs associated with returning an item, I think it’s the idea of a third party whose sole profit-making activity is returning people’s property to them that doesn’t sit well with me.

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:48pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Indeed. I guess what vexes people is that they have you by the short and curlies but everything costs money.

I suppose you can always tell the airport to keep the poxy laptop.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:51pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Again, that feels different to me, because it’s the company themselves charging a fee to cover their costs, not passing on one’s lost property to a third party for them to make a profit from.

OU812 · 15-04-2019 12:51pm

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

Agreed

faoiarvok wrote: »

But the fact that this company exists solely to return lost property surely means they aren't merely covering costs, but also making a profit from it?

Legal obligation of a business is to make money.

They've obviously identified a gap in market, invested in developing it & built a business around it.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 12:52pm

OU812 wrote: »

Agreed

Legal obligation of a business is to make money.

They've obviously identified a gap in market, invested in developing it & built a business around it.

Of course it is, but that doesn’t automatically make some behaviour ethical or even necessarily legal. Companies all over the world make a profit from illegal behaviour, the fact that they are legally obligated to make a profit is not a defence for that behaviour.

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:56pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

Is that what they did before they partnered with this company? No. They ran their own lost property and accepted it as part of the costs of operating a business transporting people and their property.

I don’t necessarily have a moral problem with charging to cover costs associated with returning an item, I think it’s the idea of a third party whose sole profit-making activity is returning people’s property to them that doesn’t sit well with me.

I imagine this has become more of an issue over the past 20 years. There was a time when passengers did not travel with expensive phones, laptops, and all manner of electrical equipment.

Quite frankly I surprised they held out this long. Maybe it has just to distinguish themselves from the low budget airlines.

It's a business. Businesses are there to make money and airlines operate with very low margins. When the cut ticket costs they try to make it up elsewhere:- 'Let someone else deal with this.'

While it may not sit well with you they are providing you a service in getting your item returned and having stored it- they do not have to do this.

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 12:59pm

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

How is that ever going to be an option in reality?

Nobody is going to voluntarily pay Aer Lingus to retrieve their item if they do not have to.

PCros · 15-04-2019 1:07pm

partyguinness wrote: »

How is that ever going to be an option in reality?

That's what you were able to do in the past.

partyguinness · 15-04-2019 1:13pm

PCros wrote: »

That's what you were able to do in the past.

Really? I honestly don't know as I was never in the situation with AerLingus. As in chose to pay a fee or not pay a fee?

I did leave a disposable camera on a flight back from Boston 20 years ago...cleaning staff never found it apparently..:rolleyes: They couldnt be arsed.. it was in the pocket on the seat on front of me.

seamus · 15-04-2019 1:22pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

That's probably not strictly true if you look at how it's legally structured.

The 3rd party company will legally be an agent of Aer Lingus who are handling this on their behalf. The property remains in AL's legal possession, the 3rd party are just facilitating the process.

If that all sounds like loopholes and politician's language, you're right. But it's likely how it works.

The T's & C's do make interesting reading though, I'd be surprised if a lot of that held up in court.
They hold onto the item and make no attempt to determine its ownership before declaring it abandoned after 31 days and then destroying it or selling it. The legal requirement is actually 366 days, or less if you can show that ownership is impossible to determine.

If an owner of something valuable appeared after 60 days and found their property had been sold on, the company could find themselves in considerable trouble.

dudara · 15-04-2019 1:25pm

oLoonatic wrote: »

Essentially it is what they are doing though. Its a "find and return fee". pretty reasonable. I have experience with them and are a joke of a company. will only deal over email and are very slow to respond.

My OH left his iPad on a plane recently. Once I got over the annoyance of having to pay to get the item back, I have to say that the whole process worked really well, with good regular comms via email.

faoiarvok · 15-04-2019 1:27pm

seamus wrote: »

That's probably not strictly true if you look at how it's legally structured.

The 3rd party company will legally be an agent of Aer Lingus who are handling this on their behalf. The property remains in AL's legal possession, the 3rd party are just facilitating the process.

If that all sounds like loopholes and politician's language, you're right. But it's likely how it works.

The T's & C's do make interesting reading though, I'd be surprised if a lot of that held up in court.
They hold onto the item and make no attempt to determine its ownership before declaring it abandoned after 31 days and then destroying it or selling it. The legal requirement is actually 366 days, or less if you can show that ownership is impossible to determine.

If an owner of something valuable appeared after 60 days and found their property had been sold on, the company could find themselves in considerable trouble.

I was thinking that the way to make it ironclad would be to ensure that it was spelled out in the Conditions of Carriage that your property would be handed to a third party and you agree to their terms. I couldn’t find anything about lost property, but I reckon this is probably what covers them:

If we make arrangements for you with any third party to provide any services other than carriage by air, or if we issue a ticket or voucher relating to transportation or services (other than carriage by air) provided by a third party such as hotel reservations or car rental, in doing so we act only as your agent. The terms and conditions of the third party service provided will apply.

cloudhopper19 · 15-04-2019 1:41pm

Top Tip: Don't leave your stuff on the plane and you won't have to pay. Simples.

kevinandrew · 15-04-2019 1:50pm

I left my wallet on a Wizz Air flight in Gdansk last year. I hadn’t even realised my mistake until was leaving the terminal building and my phone rang with someone from Wizz Air on the other side asking if I could return to the airport to collect it. All I had to do was pick up a phone near the security office and confirm who I was, within a few seconds a security officer appeared through a door, handed me my wallet and wished me a good day.

I’d never done anything like that before but I was fully expecting to pay some kind of retrieval fee, I believe it’s quite common in the airline industry now so Aer Lingus are definitely not alone. I was lucky with Wizz.

fael · 15-04-2019 1:56pm

I would be more interested to see what this third party does with items that aren't retrieved by the owner. Are they sitting on a pile of ipads, laptops and phones that were forgotten about by the owner? Where are they going? Will they be sold? Will all my family photos on my laptop be deleted or are they selling on my private stuff as well?

Aer Lingus charges for lost property

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