Aer Lingus charges for lost property

Cloudio9

Is this a new thing ? Aer lingus using a third party wereturnit.com to manage lost property. e.g. €60 cost to return a laptop, €30 for headphones.

Obviously there is a cost managing lost property but there's also a ticket premium flying AL over say Ryanair which a lot of people pay as there is an expectation you will be treated better. Seems a bit strange when they are upping the service levels in some areas.

OU812

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

faoiarvok

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

PCros

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

faoiarvok

OU812 wrote: »

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

But the fact that this company exists solely to return lost property surely means they aren't merely covering costs, but also making a profit from it?

Cloudio9

OU812 wrote: »

if there's a cost involved, shouldn't the cost be passed on to the person negligent enough to lose their property (different story if the airline lose it)?

Like I said, that's a valid argument.

I would wonder if the negative impact on customer satisfaction would out weigh the savings for AL. Paying to get your own property back is something that will come as a surprise to most passengers.

Seems somewhat legally dubious also to retain someone's private property without giving an option to collect the property.

oLoonatic

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

Essentially it is what they are doing though. Its a "find and return fee". pretty reasonable. I have experience with them and are a joke of a company. will only deal over email and are very slow to respond.

partyguinness

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

I left my laptop on a train in England a few years back. I knew the second I stepped off the train. It was placed in the Lost & Find department back at the train station.

They charged me £20.00 to give it back. Of course I was taken aback by this and they retorted 'It costs money for us to run this section.' There seemed to a young fella there on a full time basis.

I imagine Aer Lingus will use a similar argument.

faoiarvok

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Like I said, that's a valid argument.

I would wonder if the negative impact on customer satisfaction would out weigh the savings for AL. Paying to get your own property back is something that will come as a surprise to most passengers.

Seems somewhat legally dubious also to retain someone's private property without giving an option to collect the property.

The terms and conditions make for interesting reading. From my cursory understanding of civil law, I'd be surprised if these conditions could be considered enforceable, because the rightful owner of the property would not be in a position to accept the terms until after the company have taken possession of it.

GBX

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

I guess this is why they are using a 3rd party as its possible the owner is gone from the country when they realise they are missing something.

If the airline loses your bag I dont see why they charge somebody a fee to return it. But if its somebody who left something behind by their own forgetfulness I see no issue in charging.

seamus

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

You've basically hinted at it there. If there is a cost associated with returning your property to you, then there is an expectation that you would cover that cost, and not the person or organisation who is in possession of it.

In this event, the person in possession of your property would be entitled to hold onto it until the costs are paid. This is called a lien and is standard in common law.

To take your laptop example, you might say, "What if I just turn up at the house to get it, they can't demand payment". Well, they might. For example, if they have to take time off work to meet you at their house, that's a cost.

In Aer Lingus's case, there is staff time and effort involved in collecting the item, recording it, and bringing it to the appropriate location for lost property. Since it would be unreasonable to try and quantify this down to the exact euro in every case, it is reasonable to apply a standard charge, or administration fee. Items which require more care than others (e.g. laptops), have a higher admin fee.

faoiarvok

seamus wrote: »

You've basically hinted at it there. If there is a cost associated with returning your property to you, then there is an expectation that you would cover that cost, and not the person or organisation who is in possession of it.

In this event, the person in possession of your property would be entitled to hold onto it until the costs are paid. This is called a lien and is standard in common law.

To take your laptop example, you might say, "What if I just turn up at the house to get it, they can't demand payment". Well, they might. For example, if they have to take time off work to meet you at their house, that's a cost.

In Aer Lingus's case, there is staff time and effort involved in collecting the item, recording it, and bringing it to the appropriate location for lost property. Since it would be unreasonable to try and quantify this down to the exact euro in every case, it is reasonable to apply a standard charge, or administration fee. Items which require more care than others (e.g. laptops), have a higher admin fee.

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

partyguinness

faoiarvok wrote: »

The terms and conditions make for interesting reading. From my cursory understanding of civil law, I'd be surprised if these conditions could be considered enforceable, because the rightful owner of the property would not be in a position to accept the terms until after the company have taken possession of it.

So what are you going to do...stand there declaring that you do not accept the T&Cs while at the same time demanding the return of your item for free that you misplaced?

partyguinness

faoiarvok wrote: »

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

If Aer Lingus have outsourced this issue then who is paying the third party?

It seems reasonable to charge a nominal fee for their inconvenience otherwise you are expecting all other passengers to cover the costs. The alternative is that Aer Lingus just send it all to the tip.

LiamoSail

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Hoboo

Aer Lingus to announce closure of lost and found due to costs involved and refusal of item owners to meet those costs. All lost and found items will now be considered discarded rubbish and disposed of.

I'd gladly pay €60 for the return of my laptop, more fool me for forgetting it.

faoiarvok

partyguinness wrote: »

If Aer Lingus have outsourced this issue then who is paying the third party?

It seems reasonable to charge a nominal fee for their inconvenience otherwise you are expecting all other passengers to cover the costs. The alternative is that Aer Lingus just send it all to the tip.

Is that what they did before they partnered with this company? No. They ran their own lost property and accepted it as part of the costs of operating a business transporting people and their property.

I don’t necessarily have a moral problem with charging to cover costs associated with returning an item, I think it’s the idea of a third party whose sole profit-making activity is returning people’s property to them that doesn’t sit well with me.

partyguinness

LiamoSail wrote: »

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Indeed. I guess what vexes people is that they have you by the short and curlies but everything costs money.

I suppose you can always tell the airport to keep the poxy laptop.

faoiarvok

LiamoSail wrote: »

Its common in UK airports to charge so presumably Aer Lingus have every right to do similar. It strikes me as very similar to charging to print out boarding passes; perfectly legal but poor form

Again, that feels different to me, because it’s the company themselves charging a fee to cover their costs, not passing on one’s lost property to a third party for them to make a profit from.

OU812

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

Agreed

faoiarvok wrote: »

But the fact that this company exists solely to return lost property surely means they aren't merely covering costs, but also making a profit from it?

Legal obligation of a business is to make money.

They've obviously identified a gap in market, invested in developing it & built a business around it.

faoiarvok

OU812 wrote: »

Agreed



Legal obligation of a business is to make money.

They've obviously identified a gap in market, invested in developing it & built a business around it.

Of course it is, but that doesn’t automatically make some behaviour ethical or even necessarily legal. Companies all over the world make a profit from illegal behaviour, the fact that they are legally obligated to make a profit is not a defence for that behaviour.

partyguinness

faoiarvok wrote: »

Is that what they did before they partnered with this company? No. They ran their own lost property and accepted it as part of the costs of operating a business transporting people and their property.

I don’t necessarily have a moral problem with charging to cover costs associated with returning an item, I think it’s the idea of a third party whose sole profit-making activity is returning people’s property to them that doesn’t sit well with me.

I imagine this has become more of an issue over the past 20 years. There was a time when passengers did not travel with expensive phones, laptops, and all manner of electrical equipment.

Quite frankly I surprised they held out this long. Maybe it has just to distinguish themselves from the low budget airlines.

It's a business. Businesses are there to make money and airlines operate with very low margins. When the cut ticket costs they try to make it up elsewhere:- 'Let someone else deal with this.'

While it may not sit well with you they are providing you a service in getting your item returned and having stored it- they do not have to do this.

partyguinness

PCros wrote: »

There really should be an option for people to collect their property for free landside.

How is that ever going to be an option in reality?

Nobody is going to voluntarily pay Aer Lingus to retrieve their item if they do not have to.

PCros

partyguinness wrote: »

How is that ever going to be an option in reality?

That's what you were able to do in the past.

partyguinness

PCros wrote: »

That's what you were able to do in the past.

Really? I honestly don't know as I was never in the situation with AerLingus. As in chose to pay a fee or not pay a fee?

I did leave a disposable camera on a flight back from Boston 20 years ago...cleaning staff never found it apparently..:rolleyes: They couldnt be arsed.. it was in the pocket on the seat on front of me.

seamus

faoiarvok wrote: »

But they aren’t charging to cover their own costs, they have passed the property to a third party who are necessarily making a profit from the handling of it. Does that not change things?

That's probably not strictly true if you look at how it's legally structured.

The 3rd party company will legally be an agent of Aer Lingus who are handling this on their behalf. The property remains in AL's legal possession, the 3rd party are just facilitating the process.

If that all sounds like loopholes and politician's language, you're right. But it's likely how it works.

The T's & C's do make interesting reading though, I'd be surprised if a lot of that held up in court.
They hold onto the item and make no attempt to determine its ownership before declaring it abandoned after 31 days and then destroying it or selling it. The legal requirement is actually 366 days, or less if you can show that ownership is impossible to determine.

If an owner of something valuable appeared after 60 days and found their property had been sold on, the company could find themselves in considerable trouble.

dudara

oLoonatic wrote: »

Essentially it is what they are doing though. Its a "find and return fee". pretty reasonable. I have experience with them and are a joke of a company. will only deal over email and are very slow to respond.

My OH left his iPad on a plane recently. Once I got over the annoyance of having to pay to get the item back, I have to say that the whole process worked really well, with good regular comms via email.

faoiarvok

seamus wrote: »

That's probably not strictly true if you look at how it's legally structured.

The 3rd party company will legally be an agent of Aer Lingus who are handling this on their behalf. The property remains in AL's legal possession, the 3rd party are just facilitating the process.

If that all sounds like loopholes and politician's language, you're right. But it's likely how it works.

The T's & C's do make interesting reading though, I'd be surprised if a lot of that held up in court.
They hold onto the item and make no attempt to determine its ownership before declaring it abandoned after 31 days and then destroying it or selling it. The legal requirement is actually 366 days, or less if you can show that ownership is impossible to determine.

If an owner of something valuable appeared after 60 days and found their property had been sold on, the company could find themselves in considerable trouble.

I was thinking that the way to make it ironclad would be to ensure that it was spelled out in the Conditions of Carriage that your property would be handed to a third party and you agree to their terms. I couldn’t find anything about lost property, but I reckon this is probably what covers them:

If we make arrangements for you with any third party to provide any services other than carriage by air, or if we issue a ticket or voucher relating to transportation or services (other than carriage by air) provided by a third party such as hotel reservations or car rental, in doing so we act only as your agent. The terms and conditions of the third party service provided will apply.

cloudhopper19

Top Tip: Don't leave your stuff on the plane and you won't have to pay. Simples.

kevinandrew

I left my wallet on a Wizz Air flight in Gdansk last year. I hadn’t even realised my mistake until was leaving the terminal building and my phone rang with someone from Wizz Air on the other side asking if I could return to the airport to collect it. All I had to do was pick up a phone near the security office and confirm who I was, within a few seconds a security officer appeared through a door, handed me my wallet and wished me a good day.

I’d never done anything like that before but I was fully expecting to pay some kind of retrieval fee, I believe it’s quite common in the airline industry now so Aer Lingus are definitely not alone. I was lucky with Wizz.

fael

I would be more interested to see what this third party does with items that aren't retrieved by the owner. Are they sitting on a pile of ipads, laptops and phones that were forgotten about by the owner? Where are they going? Will they be sold? Will all my family photos on my laptop be deleted or are they selling on my private stuff as well?

OU812

fael wrote: »

I would be more interested to see what this third party does with items that aren't retrieved by the owner. Are they sitting on a pile of ipads, laptops and phones that were forgotten about by the owner? Where are they going? Will they be sold? Will all my family photos on my laptop be deleted or are they selling on my private stuff as well?

Should be backing your photos up to at least two separate locations.

Stovepipe

The most common lost items are : phones, sunglasses, ordinary glasses, passports, ID cards, drivers' licenses, wallets, laptops and tablets (more of these than old style laptops), earphones, headphones, jewellery (the amount of people who take off rings never ceases to amaze me).
The persons most likely to find them are: cabin crew, engineers, cleaners and the load supervisor(s), as they will all pass through the cabin as part of their duties in the turnaround of the aircraft.
The persons most likely to bring stuff to Lost Property: engineers / cabin crew (if they are passing it on the way out) / load supervisors (as they are the first point of contact with the aircraft's passengers).
The persons most likely to look for lost stuff: the four grades mentioned above.

It really does consume a huge amount of staff time looking for lost stuff. On one occasion, we had to dismantle three Premier seats to find a dropped engagement ring (she had taken it off to clean it and didnt know which seat she had dropped in on and she had a meltdown after the aircraft landed. We stripped the seats down and eventually found it. It added half an hour to the turnaround time, which pissed off the outgoing pax. She was blissfully ignorant of all this, of course and later wrote a snotty letter to the CEO, blaming us for taking so long to find her ring. Yiu can imagine what we thought of that.

Apart from all that, we used to post stuff out to people or notify them by text or Fb or email to come and collect their stuff. I did it as recently as last week. Most people have stopped bringing stuff up to Lost Property, so the company has lost all that goodwill, in one fell swoop. So, travelling public, please take more care of your belongings, as it will cost you money to retrieve them.

partyguinness

Stovepipe wrote: »

T jewellery (the amount of people who take off rings never ceases to amaze me).

Guilty.


I have an awful habit of taking off my wedding band when washing my hands and misplacing it- will turn up in trousers etc weeks later. I am on my second on wedding band having left one in a toilet sink out on the beer. Or taking my watch off and leaving it by a sink- lost at least 2 watches that way not expensive ones.

partyguinness

cloudhopper19 wrote: »

Top Tip: Don't leave your stuff on the plane and you won't have to pay. Simples.

Do you know what?

I came close to posting a similar comment at the beginning but I didn't want to that dick.

trellheim

Have AL amended their T's and C's to note the outshop of lost property ?

Tacklebox

Gone are the days when you could have lost a bag with two slr camera's, a Shimano biomaster, Abu 6500 CT, daiwa 7ht, a pair of Ray-Ban.

Put all that in your docket, price's new,and get a cheque in the post.....

smurfjed

Wallet lost on Swissair, Samsung 1 week old S9 lost in a first class seat going to Dubai, IPAD left on Lufthansa, hat left after landing in Geneva, pouch with old passport and lots of money left in hotel in Kenya....... all returned for free with a smile.

I'm gonna suffer if more airlines follow this cost reduction program.

OU812

smurfjed wrote: »

Wallet lost on Swissair, Samsung 1 week old S9 lost in a first class seat going to Dubai, IPAD left on Lufthansa, hat left after landing in Geneva, pouch with old passport and lots of money left in hotel in Kenya....... all returned for free with a smile.

I'm gonna suffer if more airlines follow this cost reduction program.

Or... and run with me on this... maybe be more careful & look after your stuff.

I don’t know anyone that’s ever lost something valuable.

smurfjed

Or... and run with me on this... maybe be more careful & look after your stuff.

LOL, true.... but I do close to 500 flights per year.

Bazzy

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Is this a new thing ? Aer lingus using a third party wereturnit.com to manage lost property. e.g. €60 cost to return a laptop, €30 for headphones.

Obviously there is a cost managing lost property but there's also a ticket premium flying AL over say Ryanair which a lot of people pay as there is an expectation you will be treated better. Seems a bit strange when they are upping the service levels in some areas.

My brother left a jacket on a ryanair plane with his passport inside was returned free of charge

Glad we didnt pay a "Premium" to ge tto our destination on time

Locker10a

partyguinness wrote: »

Guilty.


I have an awful habit of taking off my wedding band when washing my hands and misplacing it- will turn up in trousers etc weeks later. I am on my second on wedding band having left one in a toilet sink out on the beer. Or taking my watch off and leaving it by a sink- lost at least 2 watches that way not expensive ones.

Just stop taking off your rings/watch when you wash your hands !! It’s thats simple

plodder

faoiarvok wrote: »

I'd be really interested to hear some informed people's opinions on the legality of this.

If I leave my property at your house and subsequently inform you, surely you can't legally demand payment for its return? I imagine it would be fair enough for you to request I cover the cost of postage if that's required, but I can't see them having any legal leg to stand on if you demand they return it without paying other fees.

Not a lawyer, but I'd imagine the legality depends on how reasonable the charges are. If the charges are based on the actual work required to provide the service, as opposed to say, how much the item might be worth to the owner to get back, then I'd say it's legal..

I can totally believe and understand the frustration caused by the engagement ring story above, and why airlines would want to get out of the lost property business themselves.

partyguinness

Locker10a wrote: »

Just stop taking off your rings/watch when you wash your hands !! It’s thats simple

Genius.

fael

OU812 wrote: »

Should be backing your photos up to at least two separate locations.

You're missing my point.
Can a company sell on a laptop with private data on it, even though they know it was lost by the owner?

I don't know if that is what they do, but I can guarantee you not 100% of all lost items will be retrieved. So by the end of each year they will be sitting on a stack of valuables, where do they go?

faoiarvok

fael wrote: »

You're missing my point.
Can a company sell on a laptop with private data on it, even though they know it was lost by the owner?

I don't know if that is what they do, but I can guarantee you not 100% of all lost items will be retrieved. So by the end of each year they will be sitting on a stack of valuables, where do they go?

From their terms and conditions:

We are not under any obligation to store indefinitely property that we have received. We reserve the right to dispose of unclaimed property for valuable consideration or otherwise and are under no obligation to you if your property came into our possession and we disposed of it before or after you filled out a lost property request.

We will endeavour to delete all material from electronic devices before disposing of them but reserve the right not to do so if there are technical issues that make this impossible or excessively difficult or costly.

Suckit

The lost property in Dublin Airport was up for tender last year or the year before (can't remember). I know one of the companies that were going for it, and they thought that they had it. Their main priority was finding somebody to legally wipe/clean all of the devices so that they could resell them. No doubt wereturnit has that idea in mind too, which is probably why they are charging people for finding their items. It's a bit of a deterrent for some to ask for it back, and it means they (wereturnit) get a laptop/tablet/phone for the cost of wiping it.
One of the rumoured problems/obstacles at the time it was up for tender, was staff in the airport (I've no idea in what capacity) were not handing in lost property and they needed to force that to happen. They believed them to be holding on to found items and selling them themselves.

I think if I found an item in the airport now, I wouldn't hand it in. I would advertise that I found it.

Locker10a

partyguinness wrote: »

Genius.

Well what can I say, I’ve never lost a ring or watch !! Lol

Stovepipe

True story: a cleaner found a laptop on an aircraft and took it home, trying to unlock it. The owner had traced the laptop via a tracking app on her phone and told the Gardai that it had been stolen. Initially the Gardai were fobbing her off until she showed them the phone image of a map showing the location as an apartment in Gardiner Street. She could see the guy's face on her phone from the camera in the laptop so they arrested him and returned the laptop. The cleaner was sacked. So now, cleaners (and others) won't take anything that can be traced like that. thank heavens for small mercies ;-)

Brian201888

Suckit wrote: »

The lost property in Dublin Airport was up for tender last year or the year before (can't remember). I know one of the companies that were going for it, and they thought that they had it. Their main priority was finding somebody to legally wipe/clean all of the devices so that they could resell them. No doubt wereturnit has that idea in mind too, which is probably why they are charging people for finding their items. It's a bit of a deterrent for some to ask for it back, and it means they (wereturnit) get a laptop/tablet/phone for the cost of wiping it.
One of the rumoured problems/obstacles at the time it was up for tender, was staff in the airport (I've no idea in what capacity) were not handing in lost property and they needed to force that to happen. They believed them to be holding on to found items and selling them themselves.

I think if I found an item in the airport now, I wouldn't hand it in. I would advertise that I found it.

If it was my property I'd definitely fancy my chances with the airport staff than some random throwing out a tweet saying he'd found a phone

Suckit

Brian201888 wrote: »

If it was my property I'd definitely fancy my chances with the airport staff than some random throwing out a tweet saying he'd found a phone

I meant I would send a text to someone in their contacts if possible.


Anyway, just saw this thread about the lost property and I remember the company and all the happenings around a year ago.
The important point was that they were trying to secure somebody to wipe the data so they could sell on the devices.
I thought that was unusual. I don't know what the timeframe on missing items is vs the depreciation but must be worth it.