New Worldwide Handicap System

prawnsambo · 26-11-2019 10:15am

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Was at the Leinster Branch AGM last night and they gave a presentation on WHS. it was very basic and they would not allow any questions, which seemed a little odd.

Absolutely no mention of the number of shots a player can get back in a year.

They did say that fourball better ball will now count as qualifying for handicap

So people playing fourball better ball all have to hole out and record their score I assume.

Seve OB · 26-11-2019 11:41am

yea it is already around the world that 4ball betterball scores count towards handicap so I figured it would now be part of the new rules.

this is one that will suit the bandits. partner secures the points.... miss the putts so in comfort!

pretty sure I read somewhere that it will be 5 shots you can go up. that's of course unless we have regional restrictions, but if that's the case, its not really a worldwide system then is it!

Seve OB · 26-11-2019 11:43am

yes, 5 shots!

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/handicapping/education-posters/WHS_Cap_Poster.jpg

mjsc1970 · 26-11-2019 12:02pm

Thankfully 4 Ball comps are few and far between at my club.

Having 4 Ball and casual rounds count towards handicap building/reduction is just pure pants IMO.

Russman · 26-11-2019 12:05pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Was at the Leinster Branch AGM last night and they gave a presentation on WHS. it was very basic and they would not allow any questions, which seemed a little odd.

Absolutely no mention of the number of shots a player can get back in a year.

They did say that fourball better ball will now count as qualifying for handicap

I suspect, they don't really know themselves how its all going to knit together.
As someone above mentioned, a worldwide system but with local peculiarities, doesn't really make sense.

prawnsambo · 26-11-2019 12:16pm

Russman wrote: »

I suspect, they don't really know themselves how its all going to knit together.
As someone above mentioned, a worldwide system but with local peculiarities, doesn't really make sense.

Yeah, the whole point is 'have handicap, will travel', so having little local derogations doesn't really work.

Regarding the fears of banditry. I've tried to work out how you could do this, but if the purpose is to save up a handicap for a big prize event or whatever, it would have to be very, very well planned out. With a 20 round look back, that's almost half the year for regular golfers, which would mean dragging your arse around the back of the field pretty much throughout the main season.

willabur · 26-11-2019 12:23pm

I would say the vast majority of people like to get as low as possible on their handicap. The most common bandit behaviour is someone who is .1 either side of a cut or a shot back but even in the grand scheme of things it is 1 shot difference which on most days will be meaningless

Russman · 26-11-2019 12:45pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, the whole point is 'have handicap, will travel', so having little local derogations doesn't really work.

Regarding the fears of banditry. I've tried to work out how you could do this, but if the purpose is to save up a handicap for a big prize event or whatever, it would have to be very, very well planned out. With a 20 round look back, that's almost half the year for regular golfers, which would mean dragging your arse around the back of the field pretty much throughout the main season.

Couldn't agree more.
You'd want to have a pretty good head to be carrying around your best 6 of last 20 scores, and what rounds will be dropping out when you complete your current round etc. etc. That's before considering how a 16 handicapper delivers a good round to order. I'd have thought the new system makes it more complicated than currently simply accumulating 0.1s.

prawnsambo · 26-11-2019 1:25pm

Russman wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
You'd want to have a pretty good head to be carrying around your best 6 of last 20 scores, and what rounds will be dropping out when you complete your current round etc. etc. That's before considering how a 16 handicapper delivers a good round to order. I'd have thought the new system makes it more complicated than currently simply accumulating 0.1s.

And it's actually eight out of twenty, so even harder to manipulate.

Add in the fact that there will be an equivalent to CSS in operation and playing different courses with different slope and course ratings and there'll be heads melting all over the shop.

Seve OB · 26-11-2019 1:26pm

willabur wrote: »

I would say the vast majority of people like to get as low as possible on their handicap. The most common bandit behaviour is someone who is .1 either side of a cut or a shot back but even in the grand scheme of things it is 1 shot difference which on most days will be meaningless

.1 is now a thing of the past. well almost anyway!
handicaps can now jump quite dramatically in the space of a few rounds under the new system

Seve OB · 26-11-2019 1:26pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Regarding the fears of banditry. I've tried to work out how you could do this, but if the purpose is to save up a handicap for a big prize event or whatever, it would have to be very, very well planned out. With a 20 round look back, that's almost half the year for regular golfers, which would mean dragging your arse around the back of the field pretty much throughout the main season.

Trust me, I know people who have been quite open to me about doing this (on a similar system to what we are heading for) knowing they can get away with throwing a few doubles on their card because they are in a fourball comp and their partner has the points secured so they can "mind" their own handicap.

Russman wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
You'd want to have a pretty good head to be carrying around your best 6 of last 20 scores, and what rounds will be dropping out when you complete your current round etc. etc. That's before considering how a 16 handicapper delivers a good round to order. I'd have thought the new system makes it more complicated than currently simply accumulating 0.1s.

I think once we are using it, we will know and understand it a lot better and just like we know if we are .1 away from an increase now, in the future we will know what a net 70, 75 or 80 will do to our handicap.

I say we, but I understand not all golfers are dialled in that deep, but lets face it, we are all golf nerds here aren't we!!!

slingerz · 26-11-2019 3:25pm

it would definitely help if the GUI put out an example that we could follow and apply to our own handicap to see where the proposed new system will leave us

prawnsambo · 26-11-2019 3:32pm

Seve OB wrote: »

I think once we are using it, we will know and understand it a lot better and just like we know if we are .1 away from an increase now, in the future we will know what a net 70, 75 or 80 will do to our handicap.

I say we, but I understand not all golfers are dialled in that deep, but lets face it, we are all golf nerds here aren't we!!!

The thing is, it's not just your eight best that you have to keep track of, but all twenty as well. A bad round might only have the effect of bringing your ninth best round into play and will have no effect in itself.

Russman · 26-11-2019 4:07pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The thing is, it's not just your eight best that you have to keep track of, but all twenty as well. A bad round might only have the effect of bringing your ninth best round into play and will have no effect in itself.

Exactly, and if your 8th best round is also your 20th round in the sequence that will be dropping out once you complete your current round.......I dunno, no doubt some people will be able to track it, but it seems a lot of hassle, especially when a 3 shot increase is automatically halved to 1.5 shots.
You'd have to play a lot of bad golf to replace of all 8 of your "best" rounds depending on where they fall in the sequence.

Seve OB · 26-11-2019 4:43pm

yea but no. you don't need to know all your scores.

i'll try summarise and hopefully you get the gist.

all you actually need to know going out for a game is, is card 20 one of your best? what is your worst card of your best 8? and what is your best score of your other cards?

is 20 one of the best? yes, then you can already work out what your handicap will jump to if you shoot outside your best 8 range

is 20 already a dud, then you know your handicap wont change if you shoot outside your best 8 range

now if you shoot inside the range, you know what is dropping and what you average is, better than average will mean a cut, worse will mean an increase

easy peasy

Wichita Lineman · 26-11-2019 4:52pm

slingerz wrote: »

it would definitely help if the GUI put out an example that we could follow and apply to our own handicap to see where the proposed new system will leave us

One of the handicap guys in our club picked a few players including himself and analysed their handicaps under the new system (best 8 out of last 20) and found that they would have stayed the same as they are now.

spacecoyote · 26-11-2019 5:56pm

Had a quick try using the formula posted earlier in here just for my last twenty scores in my home club.

GUI is 9.6

For my last 20 rounds, using a Multiplier of 0.93 I get 9.576, using 0.96 I get 9.885, so pretty marginal difference on that basis for me.

Throw in my round from New Forest in the middle of the year & I'd imagine it would take a big hit downwards, but I don't have the rating/slope for the course so can't really generate a meaningful number for it

mike12 · 08-12-2019 6:48pm

How will the system work for inter clubs and scratch cups.
Say the junior cup is on a hard course and your index on that course will drop under the handicap for the comp same for say a scratch cup

Russman · 08-12-2019 6:56pm

mike12 wrote: »

How will the system work for inter clubs and scratch cups.
Say the junior cup is on a hard course and your index on that course will drop under the handicap for the comp same for say a scratch cup

Not 100% sure I’m correct here, but I think you’ll have your handicap index of, let’s say, 4.0 at the cutoff point, but your course handicap for a given venue may be different. I’d assume the rules for eligibility would be based on your base index rather than your course handicap....? It’d be the same for all 4.0 indexes so the venue wouldn’t really matter.

clog · 08-12-2019 10:54pm

Here's a link to the new manual, ignore the date it has been moved to November for those in CONGU.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

G1032 · 08-12-2019 11:14pm

Folks

Just came across this as I've been away from the game for a few years

Am, this sounds nuts? Can you basically set your own handicap? It's based on best 8 scores from last 20 rounds? And practice rounds are counting?

So coming up to whatever competition you want to target you can play 20 rounds (including rounds of just 9 holes), play deliberate muck for those rounds, and set your handicap?

Is this correct or am I wide of the mark? (Not going reading 100+ pages of the new system rules)

prawnsambo · 08-12-2019 11:18pm

G1032 wrote: »

Folks

Just came across this as I've been away from the game for a few years

Am, this sounds nuts? Can you basically set your own handicap? It's based on best 8 scores from last 20 rounds? And practice rounds are counting?

So coming up to whatever competition you want to target you can play 20 rounds (including rounds of just 9 holes), play deliberate muck for those rounds, and set your handicap?

Is this correct or am I wide of the mark? (Not going reading 100+ pages of the new system rules)

Casual rounds have been part of the handicap system for some time now. Nobody bothers putting the cards in though. And fair play to anyone who's able to play twenty rounds in a couple of weeks.

G1032 · 08-12-2019 11:47pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Casual rounds have been part of the handicap system for some time now. Nobody bothers putting the cards in though. And fair play to anyone who's able to play twenty rounds in a couple of weeks.

Well say 3 weeks so? Let's say you don't have children or any huge obstacles that prevent you from golfing. You're a teacher and have the summer off. You could easily play your 20 rounds in 3 weeks, especially if 9 hole rounds count. It's not that inconceivable really......

gypsy79 · 08-12-2019 11:59pm

G1032 wrote: »

Well say 3 weeks so? Let's say you don't have children or any huge obstacles that prevent you from golfing. You're a teacher and have the summer off. You could easily play your 20 rounds in 3 weeks, especially if 9 hole rounds count. It's not that inconceivable really......

There is a 3 shot soft cap and a 5 shot hard cap

And it be as suspicious as hell/ 9 hole rounds count as half rounds

prawnsambo · 09-12-2019 10:01am

G1032 wrote: »

Well say 3 weeks so? Let's say you don't have children or any huge obstacles that prevent you from golfing. You're a teacher and have the summer off. You could easily play your 20 rounds in 3 weeks, especially if 9 hole rounds count. It's not that inconceivable really......

It's still difficult. You also have to have somebody with you to mark your card. You also have to note your intention to put the card in before you start your round. Nine hole scores have been qualifying for years too, so that's not new either. And you're completely ignoring the fact that handicap committees would spot this behaviour a mile out.

Also individual hole scores are limited to nett double bogey, so a quad bogey (for example) could be stepped back to a double. There is also a 'memory of demonstrated ability' caveat in the system that has yet to be defined, but which would seem to be designed to filter out the kind of sandbagging you're suggesting.

The best bit of the new system imo, is that it now means that you can go abroad and play in opens with your new WHS handicap.

gypsy79 · 09-12-2019 10:11pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The best bit of the new system imo, is that it now means that you can go abroad and play in opens with your new WHS handicap.

I am not sure opens are as prevalent abroad.

In fact now that you can declare a round before a game for handicapping purposes some have speculated it may be the end of opens?

prawnsambo · 10-12-2019 9:05am

gypsy79 wrote: »

I am not sure opens are as prevalent abroad.

In fact now that you can declare a round before a game for handicapping purposes some have speculated it may be the end of opens?

That's been the case for a while now. At least two years iirc. Not sure why that would make any difference to open competitions though. Clubs hold opens usually to get people in playing on quiet days and they're good for funds. Players enter them to get a cheaper green fee and play other courses. And no, there wouldn't be as many open competitions as here. They're more in the line of tournaments than the kind of weekly opens we have here or in the UK.

GreeBo · 10-12-2019 9:16am

Russman wrote: »

Not 100% sure I’m correct here, but I think you’ll have your handicap index of, let’s say, 4.0 at the cutoff point, but your course handicap for a given venue may be different. I’d assume the rules for eligibility would be based on your base index rather than your course handicap....? It’d be the same for all 4.0 indexes so the venue wouldn’t really matter.

But isn't the issue that all the 4.0 indexes are only 4.0 on their own course?
Maybe some will be 5.0 on the venue and maybe others will be 3.0, which is kinda confusing. (to me!)

prawnsambo · 10-12-2019 10:29am

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't the issue that all the 4.0 indexes are only 4.0 on their own course?
Maybe some will be 5.0 on the venue and maybe others will be 3.0, which is kinda confusing. (to me!)

I think the index is calculated to take the slope and course rating out of the 'handicap'. A kind of base level off a hypothetical base level course.

Edit: Yep, here's one I prepared earlier:

prawnsambo wrote: »

Let's take an 8 handicapper from Castlemartyr (White tees SR 120, CR 70, Par 72). On 01/11/2020 the best 8 of his last 20 rounds average 81.2. His handicap index is thus ((81.2 * 96%) - 70) * 113 / 120 = 7.48.

So now he goes out and plays the white tees again. His course handicap is (7.48 * 120 / 113) + (70-72) = 5.95 (6). If he plays off the blue tees (SR 133, CR 73, Par 72), his handicap is (7.48 * 133 /113) + (73-72) = 9.8 (10).

Russman · 10-12-2019 11:30am

G1032 wrote: »

Well say 3 weeks so? Let's say you don't have children or any huge obstacles that prevent you from golfing. You're a teacher and have the summer off. You could easily play your 20 rounds in 3 weeks, especially if 9 hole rounds count. It's not that inconceivable really......

Why would you bother though ?
Is someone that desperate to try win a classic or captains prize ?
You're always going to have some tiny percentage of golfers trying to game the system no matter what it is. I doubt its possible to have a 100% watertight setup.

Russman · 10-12-2019 11:33am

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't the issue that all the 4.0 indexes are only 4.0 on their own course?
Maybe some will be 5.0 on the venue and maybe others will be 3.0, which is kinda confusing. (to me!)

My understanding (which could be completely wrong !) is that your index could be, say, 4.0 but your course handicap on your home layout could be different depending on the slope and course ratings of it. So your index is 4.0 but off the white tees in your home course you're off 4.6 maybe.

Seve OB · 10-12-2019 2:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't the issue that all the 4.0 indexes are only 4.0 on their own course?
Maybe some will be 5.0 on the venue and maybe others will be 3.0, which is kinda confusing. (to me!)

no don't think so

Russman wrote: »

My understanding (which could be completely wrong !) is that your index could be, say, 4.0 but your course handicap on your home layout could be different depending on the slope and course ratings of it. So your index is 4.0 but off the white tees in your home course you're off 4.6 maybe.

yes this is my understanding

mike12 · 10-12-2019 3:24pm

I thought it was different from the above, so if a group of golfers from different clubs who all have say a 10 handicap index go play a open they will all be playing off the same handicap?

My understanding was that if u go play a harder course than your own u would get more shots and a easier course u would get less.

Say from roganstown I have a 10 index, if I go play Swords open I thought it would mean I play off 8, if I go play the European I would play off 12.

prawnsambo · 10-12-2019 3:35pm

mike12 wrote: »

I thought it was different from the above, so if a group of golfers from different clubs who all have say a 10 handicap index go play a open they will all be playing off the same handicap?

My understanding was that if u go play a harder course than your own u would get more shots and a easier course u would get less.

Say from roganstown I have a 10 index, if I go play Swords open I thought it would mean I play off 8, if I go play the European I would play off 12.

You're both right. Can't see anything in Russman's post that contradicts that.
Your handicap index is independent of any course/set of tees. Your handicap will change from course to course and set of tees to set of tees.

mike12 · 10-12-2019 4:08pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

You're both right. Can't see anything in Russman's post that contradicts that.
Your handicap index is independent of any course/set of tees. Your handicap will change from course to course and set of tees to set of tees.

I think my original question was say for a junior scratch cup where the cut off was 5,
U could go to one course and be in theory playing off 3, if they want a level playing field should the cutoff be your playing handicap for that course.

GreeBo · 10-12-2019 5:37pm

mike12 wrote: »

I think my original question was say for a junior scratch cup where the cut off was 5,
U could go to one course and be in theory playing off 3, if they want a level playing field should the cutoff be your playing handicap for that course.

Yeah, but what they are saying is that every index 5.0 would be in theory playing off 3.0 on that course so it makes no odds.

GreeBo · 10-12-2019 5:38pm

Russman wrote: »

My understanding (which could be completely wrong !) is that your index could be, say, 4.0 but your course handicap on your home layout could be different depending on the slope and course ratings of it. So your index is 4.0 but off the white tees in your home course you're off 4.6 maybe.

So how do they (fairly) calculate everyones index if its based on your home course rating (which can vary wildly depending on the time of year it gets rated)?

prawnsambo · 10-12-2019 6:30pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So how do they (fairly) calculate everyones index if its based on your home course rating (which can vary wildly depending on the time of year it gets rated)?

The home (or any constituent) course rating is taken out of it with the calculation of the handicap index.

Snotty · 10-12-2019 8:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So how do they (fairly) calculate everyones index if its based on your home course rating (which can vary wildly depending on the time of year it gets rated)?

Your handicap index is your base handicap, example, I'm an 11 handicap at the moment on a very hard course. So my index could be, say 9, meaning 9 is my handicap that will be adjusted based on the course slope. I'd be a 8 on an easy course or could be a 13 if I was playing Augusta.

Seve OB · 11-12-2019 12:16am

essentially you don't have a handicap anymore. you get a handicap index instead.
its a subtle difference, but it evens the playing field when compared against the current system which is very course dependent.
the index is calculated based on your scores which can be played over 20 different courses of different difficulty. it doesn't matter, they will all be adjusted based on the slope of those courses and playing conditions

Russman · 11-12-2019 10:01am

GreeBo wrote: »

So how do they (fairly) calculate everyones index if its based on your home course rating (which can vary wildly depending on the time of year it gets rated)?

I don't think the ratings will come into calculating the base index though.
If we're going live with the system on 2nd Nov, I assume (happy to stand corrected) they'll calculate your base index from your best 8 out of last 20 cards prior to this, i.e. under the "old" system, so the base will be subject to CSS etc. and course and slope rating won't come into that calculation. If this is the case my gut feeling is that lots of people will start with a base that's a shot or two lower than their closing H/C on 1st Nov. If we consider that for most normal people they'll have at least a few good rounds in their "best 8 of last 20", maybe even one or two very good rounds (if they're not careful

:D!!)

GreeBo · 11-12-2019 3:15pm

Russman wrote: »

I don't think the ratings will come into calculating the base index though.
If we're going live with the system on 2nd Nov, I assume (happy to stand corrected) they'll calculate your base index from your best 8 out of last 20 cards prior to this, i.e. under the "old" system, so the base will be subject to CSS etc. and course and slope rating won't come into that calculation. If this is the case my gut feeling is that lots of people will start with a base that's a shot or two lower than their closing H/C on 1st Nov. If we consider that for most normal people they'll have at least a few good rounds in their "best 8 of last 20", maybe even one or two very good rounds (if they're not careful :D!!)

I cant see how the two marry together though.

So the new system is all based on the difficult of your course and how you manage against that difficulty.

How can you start using the new system if your starting point (your index) is going to be based on the old system.

Wouldnt that mean I'd have a different index if my home course was Milltown vs Druids Heath? (e.g. I play to 10 regularly enough in Milltown but struggle to play to 15 in Druids Heath, so is my index 10 or 15?)

Presumably it will all settle down after a year, but the first year of interclub will be....interesting.

Russman · 11-12-2019 3:22pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I cant see how the two marry together though.

So the new system is all based on the difficult of your course and how you manage against that difficulty.

How can you start using the new system if your starting point (your index) is going to be based on the old system.

Wouldnt that mean I'd have a different index if my home course was Milltown vs Druids Heath? (e.g. I play to 10 regularly enough in Milltown but struggle to play to 15 in Druids Heath, so is my index 10 or 15?)

Presumably it will all settle down after a year, but the first year of interclub will be....interesting.

Ya I know what you mean, but I think in broad terms the idea is that in theory at the moment there's no difference between a 5 handicap no matter where he's from, whereas effectively that will be used as a base to start off the new system, and your course handicap will change for each course and set of tees you play. I assume your index will also change as you play more rounds and by the time you've 20 rounds up you could have a totally new index, presumably mostly calculated at your home course.
I'm kinda guessing with a lot of that tbh !!

Seve OB · 11-12-2019 7:11pm

Russman wrote: »

I don't think the ratings will come into calculating the base index though.
If we're going live with the system on 2nd Nov, I assume (happy to stand corrected) they'll calculate your base index from your best 8 out of last 20 cards prior to this, i.e. under the "old" system, so the base will be subject to CSS etc. and course and slope rating won't come into that calculation. If this is the case my gut feeling is that lots of people will start with a base that's a shot or two lower than their closing H/C on 1st Nov. If we consider that for most normal people they'll have at least a few good rounds in their "best 8 of last 20", maybe even one or two very good rounds (if they're not careful :D!!)

hmmm, i would have thought that the will...... they should anyway!!!

Russman · 02-01-2020 1:04pm

Interesting article on the new system..........

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth

Seve OB · 02-01-2020 1:37pm

Russman wrote: »

Interesting article on the new system..........

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth

He is American so obviously seems to know best

HighLine · 02-01-2020 1:40pm

Very interesting indeed.. especially the following...

"Players who play from the same tees at their club will see another inconsistency. Say your Course Rating is 70.5 and par is 71. The calculation of Course Rating minus Par comes out to -.5. Based on the way course handicaps are calculated, half the players will have their playing handicap drop one shot lower in the WHS but the other half will not; it all depends on how that -.5 impacts your course handicap number and whether you will get to round up or round down your final number. As we all know, one stroke often determines handicap-event outcomes."

spacecoyote · 02-01-2020 1:50pm

Seve OB wrote: »

He is American so obviously seems to know best

He's also the guy who helped to create the original US system, so it feels like a lot of bias against changing the system he developed.

For a lot of his calculations, is he working the numbers in some way to come up with extremes to make it seem much worse than it is, relative to the USGA system?

Taking a 14.1 handicap index player & stating that he could vary from a handicap of 1 up to 22 depending on tees, just by adding the "Par" piece to the formula?

Or a scratch golfer playing anything from +12 to 6?

hurleronditch · 02-01-2020 10:30pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I cant see how the two marry together though.

So the new system is all based on the difficult of your course and how you manage against that difficulty.

How can you start using the new system if your starting point (your index) is going to be based on the old system.

Wouldnt that mean I'd have a different index if my home course was Milltown vs Druids Heath? (e.g. I play to 10 regularly enough in Milltown but struggle to play to 15 in Druids Heath, so is my index 10 or 15?)

Presumably it will all settle down after a year, but the first year of interclub will be....interesting.

I don’t think Milltown and DH is the perfect example, but say if you played ElmGreen you might be 10, and Ballybunion off the tips you would be 15, but your underlying index would be say 12.5.

Your underlying index is what is constantly measured. You work out your handicap for the day before every round when you know where your playing and off what tees.

gypsy79 · 03-01-2020 11:53am

hurleronditch wrote: »

I don’t think Milltown and DH is the perfect example, but say if you played ElmGreen you might be 10, and Ballybunion off the tips you would be 15, but your underlying index would be say 12.5.

Your underlying index is what is constantly measured. You work out your handicap for the day before every round when you know where your playing and off what tees.

As a member at Elmgreen I am very interested in seeing these slopes. Because Elmgreen is far from easy. But it’s difficulty is very hard to measure in any easy way

I probably have a higher percentage of cuts at away opens

My form in boards comps unfortunately hasn’t backed this up

New Worldwide Handicap System

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