Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 12:56pm

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Answer my question do you think stats compensate for the energy sapping tackles that have to be made on men the size of Roux or Kleyne? The graft they put into hitting rucks with their body weight can’t be calculated by stats

Thats true. I said they only paint one part of the picture. POM has loads of stuff that probably weigh in his favor. He is clearly a good talker, a leader, somebody people respect. He's probably a lineout leader. Maybe he's an insane trainer.

I agree.

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 1:02pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At this stage
You have played with a number of Irish internationals....to prove your right
You are a coach in AIL....to prove your right
You now are in contact with rugby analysts.....to prove your right

Not saying anything here but you can’t deny a bit of a trend

I never said i was a coach in AIL. I worked as a video analyst for an AIL team with two current Leinster coaches. I coach at other levels.

None of it proves anything. All it does is form some of my viewpoints on it. I remember Peter Smyth telling a group of us ,of Jordan Larmour two years b4 he broke through. Said he was guaranteed a cap. and lo and behold

I don't know if your part of a club yourself. Maybe you could build your own network.

Its pure chance on my part in some of it, but it gives me a rough idea about stuff.

I'm sitting in my office here just amused. I'd love to be embarrassed about it but whatever you want to believe go ahead. All i said was that he didn't dimiss it out of hand

I didn't bloody say it was his bloody bible. The players live off these stats. Read some bloody interviews as well to back this up. They hound the analysts for it. So people who are dismissing all these stats are worse. You think they wear gps bibs for the craic like.

If somebody can find a free database of stuff i'll gladly have a look. I think Opta costs in the thousands.

I'm working here for a large multi national and we're using wikipedia as source for data and stuff like that, officially. Yet we often hear oh its wikipedia...blah blah. People who think rugby pass purely do stuff for clicks need to adjust their tin foil hats, and come into the modern world where algorithms are fixing your google photos and wiki entries. I'm sure rugbypass have a great passion for rugby.

Stout Warrior · 12-12-2019 1:05pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Thats true. I said they only paint one part of the picture. POM has loads of stuff that probably weigh in his favor. He is clearly a good talker, a leader, somebody people respect. He's probably a lineout leader. Maybe he's an insane trainer.

I agree.

You sure you’re not Venjur in disguise on this board to wind everyone up and then concede your point?

aloooof · 12-12-2019 1:06pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

The players live off these stats. Read some bloody interviews as well to back this up. They hound the analysts for it. So people who are dismissing all these stats are worse. You think they wear gps bibs for the craic like.

Strawman. Nobody's saying players / coaches don't use stats. But the stats available to them and the stats available on Rugbypass aren't comparable. For obvious reasons that have already been mentioned.

You're saying "these" stats as if they're the same. They're not.

Stout Warrior · 12-12-2019 1:08pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I never said i was a coach in AIL. I worked as a video analyst for an AIL team with two current Leinster coaches. I coach at other levels.

None of it proves anything. All it does is form some of my viewpoints on it. I remember Peter Smyth telling a group of us ,of Jordan Larmour two years b4 he broke through. Said he was guaranteed a cap. and loa nd behold

I don't know if your part of a club yourself. Maybe you could build your own network.

Its pure chance on my part in some of it, but it gives me a rough idea about stuff.

I'm sitting in my office here just amused. I'd love to be embarrassed about it but whatever you want to believe go ahead. All i said was that he didn't dimiss it out of hand

I didn't bloody say it was his bloody bible. The players live off these stats. Read some bloody interviews as well to back this up. They hound the analysts for it. So people who are dismissing all these stats are worse. You think they wear gps bibs for the craic like.

If somebody can find a free database of stuff i'll gladly have a look.

I'm working here for a large multi national and we're using wikipedia as source for data and stuff like that, officially. Yet we often hear oh its wikipedia...blah blah. People who think rugby pass purely do stuff for clicks need to adjust their tin foil hats.

The stats paint a picture for the players of where they can improve but it doesn’t for example legislate for someone like Furlongs scrummaging technique. That’s the reason I would have him ahead of Porter every day of the week but the stats don’t explain technique.

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 1:11pm

aloooof wrote: »

Strawman. Nobody's saying players / coaches don't use stats. But the stats available to them and the stats available on Rugbypass aren't comparable. For obvious reasons that have already been mentioned.

You're saying "these" stats as if they're the same. They're not.

i stated in my original point. i can't do it if you're going to ignore things like that. I also never said people are not saying they don't use them. I'm saying people are dismissing their importance.

Plenty on here dismiss stats in such a way. The players are obsessed with them. I can't drag out all the particulars but Leinster's old analyst Kane told me players would hound him for the stuff. This is backed up by articles

Even at amateur level if it ever gets clocked the lads go nuts. When i play i never get a round number. People tel lme loads of carries but i want a number. Its just the nature of the game at all levels.

Its the lifeblood of what you are doing on the pitch. Look at VDF his numbers cannot be dismissed and i'm already conceding he's out 7ing Leavy.

If we can find the numbers for POM ruck clear outs i'd be happy to concede some ground?

POM apart from the stuff that he's good at off the pitch,he is making turnovers and carrying little and doesn't make a huge amount of tackles. great in the lineout. What else? Or do we even need him doing anything else?

aloooof · 12-12-2019 1:20pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Plenty on here dismiss stats in such a way. The players are obsessed with them. I can't drag out all the particulars but Leinster's old analyst Kane told me players would hound him for the stuff. This is backed up by articles

Again you're drawing a false equivalence. People are dismissing Rugbypass stats. The players aren't hounding their analysts for Rugbypass stats. That's all I'm saying.

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 1:22pm

aloooof wrote: »

Again you're drawing a false equivalence. People are dismissing Rugbypass stats. The players aren't hounding their analysts for Rugbypass stats. That's all I'm saying.

No people have dismissed form and stats on here way before me bringing up those numbers. We had lads saying form doesn't matter.

I mean come on.

VDF (and i was a critic/more that i thought he has more to give in the carrying stakes) just can't be ignored with his numbers. They're insane. So there's no context around stats sometimes. Some of them just are a black and white thing, particularly in pro rugby, in a game of inches. The shades of grey in POM's case are as i mentioned. Only the players know that for sure. We saw it on the Lions. Its obviously a thing. He's clearly a respected individual.

But for Ireland, imo we need a fresh broom, no matter what.

sydthebeat · 12-12-2019 1:26pm

its like trying to debate with a pin ball.....

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 1:26pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its like trying to debate with a pin ball.....

what?

Ok good stuff.

If somebody can answer the question about POM? he's good off the pitch,he is making turnovers. He is carrying little and doesn't make a huge amount of tackles. Which for a 6 isn't that great. He's great in the lineout. What else? Or do we even need him doing anything else?

https://www.the42.ie/peter-omahony-position-back-row-1692067-Sep2014/

For me he became the wrong position. He was a 7 or at a push a rangy 8. Maybe his 2015 injury affected him more than we'll ever really know.

b.gud · 12-12-2019 2:11pm

I think it's probably time to bring out this gif again

Stout Warrior · 12-12-2019 2:29pm

VDF is the best player in the country and the stats back that up over the past 2/3 seasons. However, players can have aspects to their game which are beneficial to the team like clearing out rucks for example that arent tracked by the statisiticians. What these rugby sites don't give and what i would be interested in seeing are the Distance ran in a match by each player. That and the velocity a player uses to hit his opponent in the tackle and at ruck time are more important stats than say number of tackles made. It's the unseen work that isn't tracked that people often miss. I would like these rugby websites to start tracking some of that stuff.

irishbucsfan · 12-12-2019 2:30pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its like trying to debate with a pin ball.....

Pin ball has a purpose!

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 2:31pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Pin ball has a purpose!

Look forget it if thats what you think fair enough. Apologies for uncivil language.

thomond2006 · 12-12-2019 2:34pm

irelandrover · 12-12-2019 2:38pm

Why are you comparing Ryan's stats to O Mahony's? Why not compare Ruddock's as they at least play the same position? Also you need to show the total stats for both teams in the stats to make the individuals players stats useful. If Leinster make 50 tackles a game compared to munsters 30 then of course a leinster playre will have more tackles.

And I simply don't believe you use wikipedia as a reference officially in a company. You might use it as a place to gather useful information but you then double check the figures using the references mentioned on the wkipedia page.

aloooof · 12-12-2019 2:41pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

you know what bucs, i'll take a ban. **** you

Some people love arguing just for the sake of it. Nobody outside this bubble reads this ****.

It would be grand like if you didn't get so much wrong. "Form doesn't matter"

Has anyone actually said "form doesn't matter"? Can you provide quotes? The only posts with that exact phrase from the last year are from yourself. I'd wager what people were suggesting was far more nuanced.

P.Walnuts · 12-12-2019 2:41pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

you know what bucs, i'll take a ban. **** you

Cheers IBF

aloooof · 12-12-2019 2:53pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

If somebody can answer the question about POM? he's good off the pitch,he is making turnovers. He is carrying little and doesn't make a huge amount of tackles. Which for a 6 isn't that great. He's great in the lineout. What else? Or do we even need him doing anything else?

https://www.the42.ie/peter-omahony-position-back-row-1692067-Sep2014/

For me he became the wrong position. He was a 7 or at a push a rangy 8. Maybe his 2015 injury affected him more than we'll ever really know.

This is the actual interesting part of the debate. For me, POM is the best jackaller and one of the best lineout jumpers we have (certainly the best defensive lineout jumper). We lose our biggest turnover threat. We'd gain in other areas tho, most notably carrying.

Tbh, I think we're really missing Leavy who offers both carrying and turnover threat (if not the lineout option).

With POM out of the team, I think there's a case for Dev being called back in.

Niallof9 wrote: »

For me he became the wrong position. He was a 7 or at a push a rangy 8. Maybe his 2015 injury affected him more than we'll ever really know.

Disagree with this. From the England game in 2017 6 Nations up to the end of 2018 he was in brilliant form. His 2015 injury wasn't affecting him then.

Niallof9 · 12-12-2019 3:00pm

apologies for uncivil language/behavior

some good points are raised around it all.

Fair enough if thats what people think i'll leave the stats stuff.

James Ryan should be captain. kelleher, Doris, Cooney need to be in the squad. Ruddock should get a good crack at it for once.

mod - banned.

AbusesToilets · 12-12-2019 3:04pm

aloooof wrote: »

This is the actual interesting part of the debate. For me, POM is the best jackaller and one of the best lineout jumpers we have (certainly the best defensive lineout jumper). We lose our biggest turnover threat. We'd gain in other areas tho, most notably carrying.

Tbh, I think we're really missing Leavy who offers both carrying and turnover threat (if not the lineout option).

With POM out of the team, I think there's a case for Dev being called back in.

Disagree with this. From the England game in 2017 6 Nations up to the end of 2018 he was in brilliant form. His 2015 injury wasn't affecting him then.

His lineout ability and occasional jackal don't compensate for his low efforts elsewhere. He's not a Warburton or Pocock, who can singlehandedly disrupt a team by being a threat at every breakdown. As for the lineout, how many defensive jumps do we tend to do per game? Not that many. So you're gambling on him hitting on a couple of turnovers in a game, while he spends the rest of the time contributing very little.

awec · 12-12-2019 3:34pm

Folks the standard of debate in here needs to improve. One poster has just found themselves banned. A few are teetering close to the edge. Don't be dicks.

troyzer · 12-12-2019 3:35pm

Jaysus.

Clegg · 12-12-2019 3:37pm

Should have been done weeks ago tbh.

mod - Get on with discussing Ireland, not other posters or mod actions.

Shefwedfan · 12-12-2019 3:58pm

aloooof wrote: »

This is the actual interesting part of the debate. For me, POM is the best jackaller and one of the best lineout jumpers we have (certainly the best defensive lineout jumper). We lose our biggest turnover threat. We'd gain in other areas tho, most notably carrying.

Tbh, I think we're really missing Leavy who offers both carrying and turnover threat (if not the lineout option).

With POM out of the team, I think there's a case for Dev being called back in.
.

The answer is not to bring in Dev. To extend his career Dev shoudl consider hanging up his international boots

I think people really overrate POM in lineout and underrate all of the other players. The time he came into the game v England you would swear none of our back row players jumped in lineout. I remember on TV someone having to point out at the time other backrowers do join the lineout and jump, just POM is a little better.

Yes POM is better, but our lineout has not crashed and burned when he wasnt on the pitch

In terms of jackel, I think VDF is close if not on a par with POM now. His work rate around the pitch is incredible.

I like POM, both as a player and a person. I think people can forget you can be critical but still like the player. I just think the game has moved on, Eddie Jones said it prior to WC. Having POM playing at 6 with a 7 like VDF is not going to work.

Unfortunately POM is out of form and a doubt to make another WC so he has to be the one the loses out.

Dubinusa · 12-12-2019 4:28pm

Our back row looked unbalanced and underpowered. With S.O.B in that row, when healthy. Other players could look good. We don't have that anymore. Compare our back row to England or Wales! They have more balance, power and cohesion.
If we go with POM, VDF and Stander, I think we'll be static. I think we need to switch things up. For years, England had an powerfully immobile back row and they were vulnerable. Haskell and Robshaw are massive powerful men, but they fade during games. They didn't complement each other and were not guys with massive engines. Now with Curry and Underhill, England have lads with talent, speed and engines. With Billy V, they look balanced and cohesive.
Our options are quite good also. Although, we lack a Billy V. Farrell needs to find a balance. If Leavy were available, we'd be in good shape, however, he's out and may not be the same player when returning.
The captaincy issue is a big call going forward. That's why I think a younger lad should get the call. Experience only takes you so far, as we saw in Japan.
Why select a guy who may not survive at the top level for much longer? That's why I really hope Sexton is not the Captain. Same with POM. Form should count and POM has been poor for a while now. I think Ruddock has been a lot better than him for a long while and I think he will get the start in the 6nations. That based on the last 18 months or so.
Furlong has had a dip in form and he's still performing very well. Expectations are what works against him. He's brilliant! Porter has been immense also as has Moore. We expect world class performances from Furlong every single match! It's hard to keep such high end performance up for so long! I think he's probably a little fatigued and hopefully returns to top form soon. His dip in performance is natural imo, hes been non stop for 3 years now. He will resume normal service soon.

theVersatile · 12-12-2019 5:44pm

At one stage according to RugbyPass Index - Dave Kilcoyne was the best loosehead prop in the world. There's a place for stats in rugby but blindly believing Player A is better than Player B because this algorithm has given Player A 88/100 and Player B 97/100 is silly. Thankfully I think most people here recognise that.

I also think the POM doesn't carry arguement is due to the systems Munster and Ireland player last season. Both position POM out wide to stretch the pitch but then played mostly 10 man rugby - with some odd wide opportunities here and there (see O'Mahoney Vs Piatau a couple years ago - Angus Lloyds try in Thomond) and set piece strike plays in an otherwise unimaginative gameplan.

Fast forward post RWC - Larkham introduces some form of wide attacking gameplan in Limerick and POM starts to carry more in the wider channels - as seen in his last two European games. Funny how that works - playing wider gives wider positioned players more ball. And before anyone fires a counterargument saying that he should go looking for work - he shouldn't (especially if Joe was as controlling as this thread would have you believe). He's playing a system. If the ball doesn't come his way - is that really his fault.

Note this is not in any way a declaration that POM should start - or be captain - or anything. Overall, nothing can be said until we see (a) the 6N squad (b) how Farrell wants Ireland to play and (c) the form of potential competitors in his position (the likes of your Ruddocks, who's playing very well; Tadhg Beirne, Doris/Deegan (if CJ moves to 6), Leavy upon his return etc)

Interested Observer · 12-12-2019 5:58pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Fast forward post RWC - Larkham introduces some form of wide attacking gameplan in Limerick and POM starts to carry more in the wider channels - as seen in his last two European games. Funny how that works - playing wider gives wider positioned players more ball. And before anyone fires a counterargument saying that he should go looking for work - he shouldn't (especially if Joe was as controlling as this thread would have you believe). He's playing a system. If the ball doesn't come his way - is that really his fault.

He's still not a very good ball carrier. He isn't agile, he isn't explosive, he isn't particularly strong in contact. It's not a strength no matter where he is. If you just want to talk about carrying there's an absolute raft of backrows who are better than him at it.

aloooof · 12-12-2019 5:59pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think people really overrate POM in lineout and underrate all of the other players. The time he came into the game v England you would swear none of our back row players jumped in lineout. I remember on TV someone having to point out at the time other backrowers do join the lineout and jump, just POM is a little better.

Imo, he's not just a little better, he's a considerably better lineout jumper than any other backrow we have. And he's certainly the best defensive lineout jumper we have (including 2nd rows). I'm almost certain he's stolen at least one in every game he's played for Munster this season? (In one game, possibly Ospreys, he stole 3 and had 2 jackals too iirc).

Take the Saracens game, for example. They didn't have a 1st team, but they were pretty close particularly with regards their lineout with Itoje, Skelton and Isiekwe. Some extract's from GT's article on it, a lot of credit going to both Holland a O'Mahony:

...it was recorded as one of the 10 lineouts Munster retained off their dozen throws, while pinching four of Saracens’ 13.

Unusually, almost every throw was contested, making the lineout the key battle within the war, with Munster captain O’Mahony a key figure.

...

In the heel of the hunt, Mark McCall admitted: “Fair play to Munster, their defensive lineout probably won them the game.”

With regards the jackal, I don't think VDF is on a par with him, tho he is improving (and it is closer than than the lineout conversation imo). It was a point of conversation on OTB with Keith Wood mentioning it's one area he can improve (and seemed to be better against Northampton) so lets hope he keeps progressing.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Having POM playing at 6 with a 7 like VDF is not going to work.

I think you could be right here. It hasn't seemed to work. I've mentioned before I think Joe picked Ryan and Henderson in the 2nd row to try increase the carrying threat of the pack while also being able to get POM and VDF into the team.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Unfortunately POM is out of form and a doubt to make another WC so he has to be the one the loses out.

I don't think the "doubt to make another WC" should come into it tbh. Same goes for Sexton, for example. There's plenty of rugby to be played between now and then. Tho admittedly, the replacements at 6 are stronger than at 10.

TL;DR:
To summarise, I think POM is the best turnover threat we have. But I can still understand the reasons why some don't think he should start, even allowing for that. But we do lose considerable turnover threat if that happens.

Stout Warrior · 12-12-2019 6:13pm

POM has great hands almost befitting a back. When he gets the ball down the blind channel on occasion he has really been adept at drawing the defender and releasing the last man down the touch line. I can recall him doing that on many occasions in games I've watched him. He is very good at drawing the defender and releasing players in on an overlap where other forwards would hesitate or botch the opportunity. I don't know if it's enough to merit his inclusion but he is a good link man in that way when he gets the ball. He may not have the engine or speed to make breaks but he has a very good footballing nous that most other forwards don't have.

What he is doing out on the wing is anyone's guess but I presume it's because his engine is gone. I see him making every second or third ruck but the rucks he gets to he does make an impact. We need a backrow option who gets to every ruck and make an impact. In reality that's the primary role of every backrow player. To make every ruck and compete. Do we value having players with better engines? We probably should.

I think his off field lifestyle and attitude is that of a leader and a club man. He played with all the old Heineken Cup winning Munster players and represents a continuity in the club. For Ireland the same can be said he really brings the Munster home bred presence and attitude. Do we value these off field attributes? - I think we resent them as Leinster supporters but I have an admiration for the attitude he brings into the Ireland camp. He puts everything into every game.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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