Shoulder to Shoulder - BT Sport Documentary

troyzer · 16-10-2018 7:29am

jacothelad wrote: »

It's never been a problem among those of us who can read and write and tie our own shoelaces. Rugby in N.I. is still almost exclusively a game that is subscribed to by the middle classes here who by and large couldn't give a dead rat's toenails for religion of any sort. I played the game for almost 40 years and only ever met two fecktards for whom it was something that created sparks in their otherwise dead brains. One got killed while defusing a landmine in S.A. and the other had trouble for kiddie fiddling. It's generally just an issue for morons, bigots and half wits who thankfully are rare in rugby circles.

It's odd that many people easily understand Schrödinger's Nationality where a person can be both Scottish and British, Welsh and British or English and British but seem to stumble over the fact that some of us are Irish and British. A good friend of mine from Donegal who is a professor at QUB tried to argue with me one night in the pub that there was no such thing as 'British'. I left her to it......:o

I don't dispute that this is factually correct but for a lot of people in the south, we really struggle with this. For us it would be intense cognitive dissonance because of how much being Irish is tied up with being opposed to British occupation and by extension, anti-British. Not in a personal way, but being anti-British with respect to its institutions such as the government, military and business interests.

Again, it's obviously true for a great many people in the North. But it's weird that such a core part of the identity as most Irish people would see it isn't shared by unionists who obviously have a different concept of being Irish.

Digifriendly · 16-10-2018 7:54am

As a rugby fan from a unionist background I found the programme fascinating. When you think of the sharing of rooms by Donal Lenihan and Brian McCall and the bit about a phone call to the room from an British army officer answered by Donal lenihan whose grandfather had fought in the 1916 rising it says something about how rugby really did transcend the differences.
Regarding antipathy to England among NI protestants it is a Celtic phenomenon IMHO. We all want to get one over 'the master race' as it were. There's the whole thing about English arrogance as well. Are there paradoxes among people from my background? I guess there are - we are a complex lot whose history especially over last 50 years has shaped us into what we are today but those of us who love our rugby will be cheering Ireland to the rafters next month, in the 6N and WC next year. BTW I was delighted with our fellow Irish provinces Leinster walloping of Wasps and Munter's excellent draw away to Exeter.

lambayire · 16-10-2018 8:04am

Really enjoyed it. Brought back some of the bad memories of growing up in the 70s and 80s.

The English hatred thing by the Unionists is quite remarkable.

thegreycity · 16-10-2018 10:57am

jacothelad wrote: »

It's odd that many people easily understand Schrödinger's Nationality where a person can be both Scottish and British, Welsh and British or English and British but seem to stumble over the fact that some of us are Irish and British. A good friend of mine from Donegal who is a professor at QUB tried to argue with me one night in the pub that there was no such thing as 'British'. I left her to it......:o

The thing about a Schrödinger analogy is that once you open the proverbial box the thing being examined should no longer exist in both states. How long will you be in the box for jaco?

16-10-2018 10:58am

Available online anywhere?

prawnsambo · 16-10-2018 11:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

Available online anywhere?

Wouldn't think so yet. BT will want to make their money from it.

16-10-2018 11:13am

I've a good few friends from the Unionist community in NI and they were collectively delighted when England were knocked out of the world cup even though some competed for England in a separate sport!

Many took part in domestic competitions despite declaring for team GB and I always got the sense that they viewed themselves as NI and then British but I can't say I ever discussed it with them in detail, it was a technicality that didn't matter to anyone once they made their decision. As Athletics isn't an Island of Ireland sport if you were Unionist there was really only one shot at International sports, though I do know a few who declared for Ireland and to my knowledge it's a lot more common now than it was 15 years ago.

I find the concept of 'feeling Irish' or 'feeling British' or 'feeling northern Irish' to be an interesting one. If you asked all my siblings what it meant to be Irish we'd all say something different. I guess it's a personal thing even when you ask people who grew up in the same house.

Honestly though - I'm more proud when I see that our education standards are going up or when we as a country do something progressive. I don't think my sense of Irish identity is based at all around nationalism, more on collective feats that we agree with each other as part of our social contract.

I think it's probably why I'd be so pro Europe. Not a flawless entity by any stretch but so much of what they do is collectively progressive and socially beneficial that I can't help but admire the bloc for what it's achieved.

I wonder how many people from south and north consider 'European' as part of their identity? I certainly consider it part of mine!

troyzer · 16-10-2018 11:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

I've a good few friends from the Unionist community in NI and they were collectively delighted when England were knocked out of the world cup even though some competed for England in a separate sport!

Many took part in domestic competitions despite declaring for team GB and I always got the sense that they viewed themselves as NI and then British but I can't say I ever discussed it with them in detail, it was a technicality that didn't matter to anyone once they made their decision. As Athletics isn't an Island of Ireland sport if you were Unionist there was really only one shot at International sports, though I do know a few who declared for Ireland and to my knowledge it's a lot more common now than it was 15 years ago.

I find the concept of 'feeling Irish' or 'feeling British' or 'feeling northern Irish' to be an interesting one. If you asked all my siblings what it meant to be Irish we'd all say something different. I guess it's a personal thing even when you ask people who grew up in the same house.

Honestly though - I'm more proud when I see that our education standards are going up or when we as a country do something progressive. I don't think my sense of Irish identity is based at all around nationalism, more on collective feats that we agree with each other as part of our social contract.

I think it's probably why I'd be so pro Europe. Not a flawless entity by any stretch but so much of what they do is collectively progressive and socially beneficial that I can't help but admire the bloc for what it's achieved.

I wonder how many people from south and north consider 'European' as part of their identity? I certainly consider it part of mine!

I would. But I was born in 1992 so it would be strange to consider myself anything but European. I take Schengen and the Euro for granted. I've studied and worked all over Europe, I have more in common with some of my friends in Italy and the UK than people in Ireland.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 11:27am

I'd agree, Venjur. The things that make me proud to be British as well as Irish are things like the NHS, being the most secular nation in the world, and so on.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 11:32am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'd agree, Venjur. The things that make me proud to be British as well as Irish are things like the NHS, being the most secular nation in the world, and so on.

The UK is the most secular nation in the world? From a strictly constitutional perspective, the United Kingdom is technically a theocracy.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 11:40am

Well, having checked, it's not top any longer, but it's in the top ten most secular nations in the world.

But I'm talking about day-to-day behaviour, values and self-definition, rather than technical constitutional perspectives.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 11:47am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, having checked, it's not top any longer, but it's in the top ten most secular nations in the world.

But I'm talking about day-to-day behaviour, values and self-definition, rather than technical constitutional perspectives.

The UK has an official state religion and the head of state is also the head of that religion. That's not just constitutional vagueries, that is a technocracy by definition.

It's obviously mitigated by the fact that the Monarch has little real power, but the point remains that the UK has a state religion and bishops from that religion make law in the House of Lords.

I'm not trying to suggest that Ireland is more secular, it certainly hasn't been historically, but even Dev didn't put bishops in the Seanad.

What you're actually referring to is not secularism, but irreligionism. On that point, I'd largely agree.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 11:56am

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept.

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 12:01pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept.

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

I agree, that's what I meant by not even Dev....

Ireland was a church state in all but name. But sure the Blasphemy law will be gone in three weeks. Ireland is secularising and irrelegionising (definitely not a real word) at an astonishing pace.

The UK isn't really secularising, it's too bedded in its institutions.

But again, I get your point. Nobody really cares that the state religion is Anglicanism, it doesn't have a pernicious effect such as Ireland's unofficial official state religion.

I didn't mean to suggest we're comparing Ireland and the UK. But you were listing things that the UK has in the context of being proud of being both Irish and British. All I'd suggest is that using secularism is increasingly becoming more an Irish thing to be proud of than British. We're certainly leading Europe with secular reforms.

Notfrontrow · 16-10-2018 12:02pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Watched this yesterday for the first time. I was dubious about it tbh, but on the whole it was pretty good. Particularly for the interviews with the likes of Willie-John, David Duckham and Davy Irwin. The bit about The Rose of Tralee being played at the RWC was hilarious.

I watched it last night. Very good show in my opinion. BoD is a much better presenter than I expected him to be. Thought the show struck the right balance in general. Was fascinated by the story of the British army officer playing for Ireland during the troubles. I personally was unaware of that.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 12:10pm

troyzer wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept.

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

I agree, that's what I meant by not even Dev....

Ireland was a church state in all but name. But sure the Blasphemy law will be gone in three weeks. Ireland is secularising and irrelegionising (definitely not a real word) at an astonishing pace.

The UK isn't really secularising, it's too bedded in its institutions.

But again, I get your point. Nobody really cares that the state religion is Anglicanism, it doesn't have a pernicious effect such as Ireland's unofficial official state religion.

I didn't mean to suggest we're comparing Ireland and the UK. But you were listing things that the UK has in the context of being proud of being both Irish and British. All I'd suggest is that using secularism is increasingly becoming more an Irish thing to be proud of than British. We're certainly leading Europe with secular reforms.

Very true. And it's fantastic to see. But the difference between the Catholic school system (up here in NI, anyway) and the state school system would give me real pause. Not in terms of results, where the top schools are often Catholic grammars, but in terms of inclusivity and cultural diversity.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 12:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept.

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

I agree, that's what I meant by not even Dev....

Ireland was a church state in all but name. But sure the Blasphemy law will be gone in three weeks. Ireland is secularising and irrelegionising (definitely not a real word) at an astonishing pace.

The UK isn't really secularising, it's too bedded in its institutions.

But again, I get your point. Nobody really cares that the state religion is Anglicanism, it doesn't have a pernicious effect such as Ireland's unofficial official state religion.

I didn't mean to suggest we're comparing Ireland and the UK. But you were listing things that the UK has in the context of being proud of being both Irish and British. All I'd suggest is that using secularism is increasingly becoming more an Irish thing to be proud of than British. We're certainly leading Europe with secular reforms.

Very true. And it's fantastic to see. But the difference between the Catholic school system (up here in NI, anyway) and the state school system would give me real pause. Not in terms of results, where the top schools are often Catholic grammars, but in terms of inclusivity and cultural diversity.

Yeah, my time spent living in the North really opened my eyes to the schools issue. Whatever about the peace and all of the institutional progress made, there is still massive segregation from childhood up.

There was a brand new Catholic school that opened near me just after I left, I couldn't believe it.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 12:14pm

And there is a finer distinction, in fact - I am culturally Irish, but I don't live under Southern laws. Irish rugby, film, books, music are much more directly relevant to my day to day life than the Dail. Not that the Dail doesn't have a knock-on effect on my life politically, but it is a governing body in another territory. Trump also has a knock-on effect, possibly greater. The difference is I have no American identity.

Former Former · 16-10-2018 12:17pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept.

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

Just on this, the 2009 law was enacted purely and only because the Constitution (from the god-fearing 1930s) required blasphemy to be a criminal offence. They deliberately drafted the 2009 law so that any actual prosecution would be impossible.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 12:25pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

And there is a finer distinction, in fact - I am culturally Irish, but I don't live under Southern laws. Irish rugby, film, books, music are much more directly relevant to my day to day life than the Dail. Not that the Dail doesn't have a knock-on effect on my life politically, but it is a governing body in another territory. Trump also has a knock-on effect, possibly greater. The difference is I have no American identity.

Sure but culturally, the Irish people are becoming more secular. The laws are only a reflection of that.

Two thirds of people voted to repeal the 8th amendement. That isn't the Dáil, that's a cultural shift demanding action. And it's clear that the same forces in the south are active in the North, albeit strangled by a powerful culturally conservative block that doesn't really exist in the south anymore.

16-10-2018 12:38pm

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 12:41pm

I'm not trying to underestimate the secularisation of the South - it has been extraordinary to see. And something that - personally - I think is wonderful. But I don't feel that increased secularisation very acutely because I'm not Catholic.

This is not a comparison between NI and the South - it's my own feeling of identity. The Catholic Church has always been a known to me, as someone who has had friends and family in both communities, but I have never been a member. I don't feel as proud of Ireland's movements in that direction because the starting point was quite alien and not a part of my identity. Conceptually, intellectually, I think it's fantastic, but in terms of defining myself, it feels like Other People's Business. They're moving much closer to the values I have held for years, so I don't feel pride in the same way.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 12:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

There's a lad on here who seems to want to set up a campaign. John Waters has something going on and Ali Selim has been doing the rounds as well.

But realistically, there's no organised opposition to this repeal. The Iona Institute and the rest of the Catholic right are exhausted and bankrupt from the marriage and abortion referendums.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'm not trying to underestimate the secularisation of the South - it has been extraordinary to see. And something that - personally - I think is wonderful. But I don't feel that increased secularisation very acutely because I'm not Catholic.

This is not a comparison between NI and the South - it's my own feeling of identity. The Catholic Church has always been a known to me, as someone who has had friends and family in both communities, but I have never been a member. I don't feel as proud of Ireland's movements in that direction because the starting point was quite alien and not a part of my identity. Conceptually, intellectually, I think it's fantastic, but in terms of defining myself, it feels like Other People's Business. They're moving much closer to the values I have held for years, so I don't feel pride in the same way.

Well as I said here already, I was born in 1992. I had my political awakening like most people in the mid teens. So maybe 15/16 around when the recessions was kicking off.

I never knew that Ireland. It wasn't my Ireland and it wasn't part of my identity. So you and I are very similar in that respect.

The best way I can describe it is I've always been there from as long as I can remember and it was just a matter of the old farts finally waking up and realising that the 8th amendement was cruel and unusual.

So like you, I don't REALLY feel pride. Mostly because I never knew differently and I'm more ashamed that older people took so long to catch on.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 1:02pm

I think this is the most civilised and nuanced discussion I've had on here. I'm feeling a powerful compulsion to say something awful about POM or Henshaw.

Squidgy Black · 16-10-2018 1:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

There was a couple of the die hards complaining about "turning our back on the history of our country, and disrespect to the church" and the usual BS, but other than the nutjobs I think everyone's in agreement that it's ridiculous.

dregin · 16-10-2018 1:49pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

John Watters.

prawnsambo · 16-10-2018 4:36pm

dregin wrote: »

John Watters.

Well that's made up my mind for me.

prawnsambo · 16-10-2018 5:35pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think this is the most civilised and nuanced discussion I've had on here. I'm feeling a powerful compulsion to say something awful about POM or Henshaw.

BOD probably. Seeing as it's his documentary that started the whole thing.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 7:32pm

Well, in all honesty, when I did watch it, I found it patchy and clumsy in places...

troyzer · 16-10-2018 7:35pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, in all honesty, when I did watch it, I found it patchy and clumsy in places...

Yeah, it was a bit rough from a first time presenter and production company.

But it was an ambitious project and I think BOD might be able to make a second career in the media. I don't think he's a great commentator, decent pundit but this seems like it might his thing.

He should probably run for president to be honest.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 7:39pm

BOD wasn't bad onscreen, I thought some of the editorial decisions were sloppy, and there's no excuse for that - you'd expect to bring in an experienced producer and or/ exec producer.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 7:44pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

BOD wasn't bad onscreen, I thought some of the editorial decisions were sloppy, and there's no excuse for that - you'd expect to bring in an experienced producer and or/ exec producer.

He was a bit clueless though. Your man was clearly winding him up with the petrol bomb routine.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 7:53pm

Well, that's one. Went on far too long. I get it, he's asportsman, he's got a keen eye for physical skills and effort; I get it, we're being a bit irreverent, talking about how they're thrown. Now make the sequence 30 secs/a minute shorter. If you want to know about peace walls, you could ask a taxi tour driver, or you could speak to someone from either side who literally live in its shadow. He could literally have met someone in their garden, they could have talked about watching him play rugby, and he asks about this bloody great wall behind their house.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 7:55pm

The worst sequences for me were Nigel Carr, Rala and the final one with Bowe.

prawnsambo · 16-10-2018 8:00pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, that's one. Went on far too long. I get it, he's asportsman, he's got a keen eye for physical skills and effort; I get it, we're being a bit irreverent, talking about how they're thrown. Now make the sequence 30 secs/a minute shorter. If you want to know about peace walls, you could ask a taxi tour driver, or you could speak to someone from either side who literally live in its shadow. He could literally have met someone in their garden, they could have talked about watching him play rugby, and he asks about this bloody great wall behind their house.

You're hired.

That sounds a lot better tbh.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:03pm

When Brexit happens, I am going to treat that like a legally binding offer of employment and relocate. Do you have a spare room?

Squidgy Black · 16-10-2018 8:04pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The worst sequences for me were Nigel Carr, Rala and the final one with Bowe.

The Rala one with the flags was just pure fodder for time. I mean, having Rala explain they carry an extra set of flags and why they do, and what order the flags go in.....

troyzer · 16-10-2018 8:07pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The worst sequences for me were Nigel Carr, Rala and the final one with Bowe.

The Rala one with the flags was just pure fodder for time. I mean, having Rala explain they carry an extra set of flags and why they do, and what order the flags go in.....

And to never forget to take the flag down after because they only bring two on tour.

I'm sure they cut the scene out when he talked about how he needs to make sure all of the balls are pumped up for training.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:10pm

Rala must have met literally dozens of Ulster players through the years - why not get an insight from him? Has he seen a change in attitudes? He was sharp enough with BOD when O'Driscoll forgot about the Ulster flag being flown sometimes. Any presenter worth a bean, when that happens, says, "wow - it's obviously important - why? Does it get forgotten about? Does it mean much to the Ulster lads when they line out, to see it beside the other two? Etc etc"

As it was, the same information could have been given with some graphics, a bit of archive and some voiceover. What a waste of having Rala there.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:12pm

troyzer wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The worst sequences for me were Nigel Carr, Rala and the final one with Bowe.

The Rala one with the flags was just pure fodder for time. I mean, having Rala explain they carry an extra set of flags and why they do, and what order the flags go in.....

And to never forget to take the flag down after because they only bring two on tour.

I'm sure they cut the scene out when he talked about how he needs to make sure all of the balls are pumped up for training.

That actually did make me laugh out loud.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:14pm

"Some lads like their jerseys out on the bench with the number facing up, on the top. Some prefer it to be face-down. Some have no strong views either way. Um..."

troyzer · 16-10-2018 8:24pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

"Some lads like their jerseys out on the bench with the number facing up, on the top. Some prefer it to be face-down. Some have no strong views either way. Um..."

"The players always have to stay hydrated as well. Which is why I make sure they all have a water bottle with their name on it. My secret is to dip the lip in sugar just like when you used to play at underage"

troyzer · 16-10-2018 8:36pm

troyzer wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

"Some lads like their jerseys out on the bench with the number facing up, on the top. Some prefer it to be face-down. Some have no strong views either way. Um..."

"The players always have to stay hydrated as well. Which is why I make sure they all have a water bottle with their name on it. My secret is to dip the lip in sugar just like when you used to play at underage"

That might just be me thinking about it now. When I played underage soccer my manager used to use the same Mi Wadi bottles for training and matches and she'd dip the lip in flavoured sugar beforehand.

So you'd be drinking water but there'd be a sugary kick.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:39pm

More compelling than BOD talking to his ma, in fairness.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 8:49pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

More compelling than BOD talking to his ma, in fairness.

Maybe he should have interviewed me.

I could have told him about rocks as well (I'm a geologist).

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:55pm

ABORT ABORT ABORT

troyzer · 16-10-2018 8:57pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

ABORT ABORT ABORT

On a somewhat related topic, what are the chances of us having an all Ireland soccer team at some point?

It seems mad that we split the talent pool, we might not be complete **** if we buddied up.

Paul Smeenus · 16-10-2018 8:59pm

Very, very slim, I'd say, but I have absolutely zero interest in football/soccer, so others would be better with that topic, which will in no way blow up in your face.

troyzer · 16-10-2018 9:00pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Very, very slim, I'd say, but I have absolutely zero interest in football/soccer, so others would be better with that topic, which will in no way blow up in your face.

Definitely not. It's not like fans of the knacker ball can be unreasonably irate.

prawnsambo · 16-10-2018 9:00pm

troyzer wrote: »

On a somewhat related topic, what are the chances of us having an all Ireland soccer team at some point?

It seems mad that we split the talent pool, we might not be complete **** if we buddied up.

No chance I would say. No idea what the IFA are like, but if I was them, I'd want nothing to do with the FAI.

Shoulder to Shoulder - BT Sport Documentary

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