On the verge of purchasing a boat from the U.K.

AndyBoBandy · 09-07-2018 3:04pm #1

I've been desperately wanting to get back into sailing over the last few years, and I've decided the time is now to buy a boat.

I spent pretty much my entire youth sailing up to about the age of 21. From age 14-20 I owned a mini tonner called 'Wildfire' which we raced out of Poolbeg. Prior to that, my dad had a Beneteau First 32s5 for a few years (the previous owners sunk it in Dun Laoghaire, so she was a write off, and my dad (and me helping), fully restored her to her former glory, and sailed her for about 4-5 years). I also used to spend summers working out in the INSS, so I was always in or around boats!.

Queue my twenties where my father (a marine surveyor as well as a sea survival instructor) passed away, and I got a job travelling all over the world building power stations, so opportunities to sail were few and far between. Though since settling back home with my OH (whom I met on my travels), and after moving to the seaside a few years ago, the itch has been growing ever since*, and now I have a 3 1/2 year old son, I want him to have the same involvement in the sport I loved so much, and still love to this day. Trying to get herself into sailing will be an entirely different proposition though!

I've been looking for a while, and appear to have found a very well kept First 26 over in the U.K., so I have her being surveyed today, and I'm flying over tomorrow to have a look myself! I've got transport arranged back to Dublin if I go ahead with it, so fingers crossed on the survey today, and the visit tomorrow!!

The 26 is an ideal size for what I want, just casual cruising the east coast for now, with a degree of comfort (inboard diesel was a requirement), and something to gradually introduce the family into sailing with. (The Club Swan 50 will eventually come with the euromillions win for racing around the cans, while it'd probably be a Jeanneau 64 for cruising the Med). Realistically the plan would be to move up to a 32-34 in a few years.

*being home based, and seeing boats sailing past out my office window regularly isn't helping!

EdgeCase · 09-07-2018 3:06pm

I’d watch the currency markets as all hell is breaking loose around Brexit today in British politics. If Sterling slides, you’ll bag yourself a bargain!

AndyBoBandy · 09-07-2018 3:09pm

If all goes well today & tomorrow, I'd be hoping to do the deal before the weekend!

Bank Transfer or Bank Draft (it'll be less than £8k), or is there a cheaper way to do it?

Tabnabs · 09-07-2018 3:15pm

The lads over on the motoring forum have transferring money from Irish to UK bank accounts down to a fine art and would be well worth while talking to. Fingers crossed it all goes well.

AndyBoBandy · 09-07-2018 7:25pm

Survey came back with no major issues, few hatches will need replacing soon, and some very minor cracks on the gel coat in some places, nothing to be too concerned about!!

So I guess I’m flying over in the morning to take a look myself!!

fergal.b · 09-07-2018 8:18pm

Best of luck with her, enjoy one of your happy days.

AndyBoBandy · 09-07-2018 9:46pm

Well, the owner emailed me to say that someone who viewed the boat last week has decided this evening to buy her.

To say I’m gutted is an understatement.

TomOnBoard · 09-07-2018 9:56pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

If all goes well today & tomorrow, I'd be hoping to do the deal before the weekend!

Bank Transfer or Bank Draft (it'll be less than £8k), or is there a cheaper way to do it?

Get a quote on Transferwise. I've used them for Euro to Dollar and they're way cheaper than banks. Others may be cheaper though. As said, check on the car buying forums for alternatives.

Happy sailing!

listermint · 09-07-2018 10:02pm

Currencyfair had the best rate when I was buying my car in the UK. You have to sign up for an account might take a day or so to clear account sign-up transfer usually 2 days.

Best value I could find at the moment . Banks were disaster robbery

fergal.b · 09-07-2018 11:07pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Well, the owner emailed me to say that someone who viewed the boat last week has decided this evening to buy her.

To say I’m gutted is an understatement.

Not to be so

don't worry plenty more boats in the sea

sometimes it's better not to jump at the first boat that takes your fancy and I'm sure you will find another one soon enough, shame you had to pay a surveyor before you got the email.

.

TomOnBoard · 09-07-2018 11:14pm

I think you need a buying strategy to avoid incurring costs without any guarantees that your purchase may proceed. For example, in this case, you have incurred the cost of survey as well as your flights in the morning.

I did this years ago for a motor cruiser and went over to UK with a list of vessels and boatyards to see. I did a deal in a boat yard that was sale subject to survey. I left a deposit, arranged a survey and finalised the purchase.

Steve · 09-07-2018 11:15pm

Aw no, sorry to hear that.

neris · 09-07-2018 11:53pm

Keep an eye out over here there are some decent bargains coming up every now and again on the afloat site or Apollo duck. Been a few nice trapper 300s in the past on Apollo duck or impalas aswell

AndyBoBandy · 10-07-2018 7:41am

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I think you need a buying strategy to avoid incurring costs without any guarantees that your purchase may proceed. For example, in this case, you have incurred the cost of survey as well as your flights in the morning.

I was even thinking about offering a small deposit the week before last, just to secure her until I could get it surveyed, and see it myself as yesterday was the earliest I could get a survey, and the flights yesterday & last week were crazy money.

She was very keenly priced indeed (£6,950), and looked really really well kept. She also had a swing keel which would have been ideal for my future mooring needs and the surveyor agreed yesterday that she was a lovely boat. Perhaps on the back of that from the surveyor I should have committed to buying? although it was only 2 hours later the owner emailed to say she was sold.

http://beneteau.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=562686

to compare, theres a First 26 in Howth asking €12,950

I'll go again.

fishy_fishy · 10-07-2018 8:33am

Offer more than asking?

AndyBoBandy · 10-07-2018 8:44am

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Offer more than asking?

I was half thinking would/could I do that, but how much more? and I wouldn't want to be getting into any bidding wars for it!

Either way, the flight I was booked on left about 20 minutes ago (I'm down €200), so to pardon the pun, I think this ship has sailed for me!!

fishy_fishy · 10-07-2018 9:03am

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I was half thinking would/could I do that, but how much more? and I wouldn't want to be getting into any bidding wars for it!

Either way, the flight I was booked on left about 20 minutes ago (I'm down €200), so to pardon the pun, I think this ship has sailed for me!!

What do you think it's worth? Offer that much, subject to viewing, less the cost of rebooking flights. Doesn't have to be a bidding war, you can offer it as a one time "here's what I was prepared to pay for it before you lacked the courtesy to let me know someone else was serious on it and I spent money on survey and flights" take it or leave it offer.

Tabnabs · 10-07-2018 9:08am

That's rotten luck.

With the price of transporting her over to Ireland from the UK, i.e. not under her own power, is there not scope in the budget to get something closer to home? The Beneteau 26 was built in an era of many fine 26 footers, there should be some nice examples lying in harbour in Ireland to choose from.

AndyBoBandy · 10-07-2018 9:20am

I think I might just leave this one and chalk it down to experience. 26ft was at the very lower limit of what I wanted size wise, ideally I was looking at the 28-31ft range. It was just that the price was so good on this one it got me very interested (I also missed out on a lovely First 285 a few weeks ago that was lying in Malahide, and was only €15,000. I made the enquiry call the day after she was sold).

Something else will come up for me.

On the plus side, I used the last week or 2 to finally decide to go get my VHF operators licence, which I'll have this weekend. I never bothered getting it in my youth for some reason, and it's something I'll need hopefully in the near future for a ships licence.

AndyBoBandy · 10-07-2018 9:32am

Tabnabs wrote: »

That's rotten luck.

With the price of transporting her over to Ireland from the UK, i.e. not under her own power, is there not scope in the budget to get something closer to home? The Beneteau 26 was built in an era of many fine 26 footers, there should be some nice examples lying in harbour in Ireland to choose from.

I had transport arranged for around about £1,000 so all in she was still coming in around about the €9,000 mark, and for that price point, theres not much else out there and sticks out to me.

This Jeanneau Sun Dream 28 looks quite nice (even though that window in front of the mast looks terrible).

neris · 10-07-2018 9:43am

This is for sale up in malahide at 11k

https://afloat.ie/boats-for-sale/sailing-cruisers/544-beneteau-26

listermint · 10-07-2018 3:44pm

neris wrote: »

This is for sale up in malahide at 11k

https://afloat.ie/boats-for-sale/sailing-cruisers/544-beneteau-26

same boat.

https://afloat.ie/boats-for-sale/sailing-cruisers/544-beneteau-26

http://beneteau.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=520100

as the OP posted. different prices though

AndyBoBandy · 16-07-2018 2:40pm

OK, Round 2 might be about to begin.

I've found another boat in the U.K. that I really like. A bit more expensive than the previous one I almost bought, but she's a bigger boat, and has lots of recent upgrades (instruments & interior), and a shallow(ish) draft (which will be needed down the road for possible local mooring options).

She's for sale through a broker on The Solent, so my plan would be to go and see it, agree (hopefully) to purchase it (pending survey), pay a deposit, then arrange the survey etc..

(worst case scenario is I'm only down the cost of flights up to the point where I decide to buy/pay deposit).

Here we go again!!

Tabnabs · 17-07-2018 9:27am

Throw up a link so we can have a look at the prospective purchase.

AndyBoBandy · 17-07-2018 12:20pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Throw up a link so we can have a look at the prospective purchase.

I don't really want to jinx it by throwing up a link!

I've booked my flights, and will see her tomorrow!! so here goes!!

Any tips for when I'm with the broker? ask will they take an offer below asking? Obviously sale will be dependant on successful survey, but presumably once/if a deposit is paid, no further inquires or viewings would be entertained?

Tabnabs · 17-07-2018 12:22pm

UK market is very depressed I hear, absolutely put in a low offer and see how far down you can beat them.

AndyBoBandy · 17-07-2018 12:33pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

UK market is very depressed I hear, absolutely put in a low offer and see how far down you can beat them.

Aye, there is a similar boat elsewhere in England for sale, but it's 3 years newer (but without the recent upgrades of the one I'm seeing tomorrow, and its quite further away), and they are looking for £16,000. The one I want is going for (£18,000), so I'll certainly have a print out of that one with me, and tell the broker I'm up there next to have a look at that one as well.

pedroeibar1 · 18-07-2018 12:33pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Any tips for when I'm with the broker? ask will they take an offer below asking? Obviously sale will be dependant on successful survey, but presumably once/if a deposit is paid, no further inquires or viewings would be entertained?

If the broker knows that you are coming over from Ireland he will know you are serious and keen to buy/not waste flight expenses and will factor that into any price drop negotiation. Make sure to drop into conversation that you are looking/ have looked at another boat and that a sale is down to price. (Have a similar boat in mind either there or here.)

The eventual price depends on how professional / reputable the broker is and where the boat is berthed.

If the boat is on the broker’s hard or marina he might like the cashflow of the storage/berthage fees and might be reluctant to lose them – if you offer too low a price he has an excuse to tell the owner not to sell.

If the broker really wants the cash (his commission fee) he will not worry about a price drop. Assume his fee is 5%, that means his loss is £50 for every £1,000 the owner drops. Which would he prefer, a potential £750 after hassle, trying to find potential buyers, more visits and a nebulous future sale at £15k or £700 in his pocket now for a sale at £14k?

Once the broker accepts your deposit the boat goes ‘sale agreed’ subject to survey. You agree to buy, he agrees to sell. On receipt of a ‘good’ survey both are obliged to complete.

OTOH better value will be had at the end of the season – after all, it will be August by the time you get her back over here, so why the rush? Also, I’d bet that Sterling will take a hit on Brexit and you would gain a decent discount by way of exchange rate difference later on.

All that aside, there is a lot to be said to get what you want now, and if you keep the boat for five years the price difference of a grand or two spread over that period is negligible.

Tabnabs · 18-07-2018 4:04pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If the boat is on the broker’s hard or marina he might like the cashflow of the storage/berthage fees and might be reluctant to lose them – if you offer too low a price he has an excuse to tell the owner not to sell.

All good advice, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with the above. In my experience, the broker/yard doesn't actually get paid until the boat leaves and so they may prefer for cash flow reasons to shift the boat out. The former owner will be flush with cash once sold and in a position to pay his outstanding bills. This is possibly not the case prior to the sale and the broker/yard knows that the boat isn't leaving until all debts are paid.

So I wouldn't let the location weight too much on your mind regarding the negotiations.

AndyBoBandy · 19-07-2018 4:27pm

Time for an update.

Went over yesterday to see the boat, and was extremely impressed, she is/was immaculately kept. I was expecting it to not look as nice in the flesh as it did in the photo's, but I was very surprised.
There was £12k spent on her a few years ago, including new lining in the cabin, new Raymarine log/depth/wind instruments, a new Icom VHF (That hasn't had an MMSI put into it yet), new oven/grill/hob (thats never been used), new running & standing rigging, hull strip down & epoxy, new keel bolts (as a precautionary measure), new main cover & spray hood, flexible water tank plus lots more... I was shown a folio of receipts for everything, going back years and years.

It's quite sad as the previous owner died, so the son selling it off as he has little to no interest in keeping it, and it's costing them £300 a month to keep it at the marina. The broker advised them that their best chance of selling it was at the Southampton Boat Show in a few months (about another £1,000 in marina fee's), the boat selling will finally give the wife of the owner some closure.

The only issue is there is no original VAT receipt (I'm not overly bothered with this though as there is paperwork going back to the original owner (when he, a U.K. national, sold it to another U.K. national, and she's a 1987 boat, so I'll take the chance on that). It might be hard to prove the VAT is paid, but it would be equally hard to prove it wasn't paid.
There is also no spinnaker pole.

She was listed at £18k, I offered £16k, and my offer was accepted today. (I offered £16k on the basis of there being a similar and slightly newer version available elsewhere at £16k), so we are effectively 'sale agreed'

Link will follow shortly when pre-purchase contract is signed, and deposit paid (I still don't want to jinx it).

Potentially have a survey & lift lined up for mid next week, and am looking at various options to get her home (The broker have a delivery captain who charges about £200 per day + flights, so I could have her in Dublin for about a grand).

Am I mad?

Tabnabs · 19-07-2018 4:36pm

Sounds like a great find, congratulations. Fingers crossed the survey goes well and the sale goes through without complications.

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Am I mad?

Welcome to the asylum! :pac:

neris · 19-07-2018 8:03pm

And I was coming on to tell of something that might have been of interest to you lying over in Howth I spotted today. Best of luck with the purchase

TomOnBoard · 19-07-2018 8:07pm

neris wrote: »

And I was coming on to tell of something that might have been of interest to you lying over in Howth I spotted today. Best of luck with the purchase

Do tell! You teaser you!!

:pac:

neris · 19-07-2018 8:22pm

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Do tell! You teaser you!! :pac:

OP can pm me for details of boat type and an owners name. But it's a nice 4 berth cruiser racer that's looking very sad now and could be worth an offer

welder · 19-07-2018 10:54pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Am I mad?

Most definitely if you don't sail her back yourself !

AndyBoBandy · 19-07-2018 11:12pm

welder wrote: »

Most definitely if you don't sail her back yourself !

I’d happily do the trip, but I’d certainly want someone a lot more experienced with me!!

I haven’t done any passages of note in almost 20 years, and the last one was only Dun Laoghaire to Cyde on a Sigma 33 in 99, prior to that I went as far as Falmouth, West Cork, Aberystwyth. So the Solent would certainly be new territory for me!

TomOnBoard · 19-07-2018 11:51pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I’d happily do the trip, but I’d certainly want someone a lot more experienced with me!!

I haven’t done any passages of note in almost 20 years, and the last one was only Dun Laoghaire to Cyde on a Sigma 33 in 99, prior to that I went as far as Falmouth, West Cork, Aberystwyth. So the Solent would certainly be new territory for me!

The safest thing would be to crew for a pro. It would be a great way to pick up tips and have an adventure, assuming you dont know it all already.

:eek: The Solent is no place for the inexperienced / faint-hearted. :eek:

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 6:33am

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The safest thing would be to crew for a pro. It would be a great way to pick up tips and have an adventure, assuming you dont know it all already.

:eek: The Solent is no place for the inexperienced / faint-hearted. :eek:

That would be the plan alright, it would be a decent 400 mile trip to get back my sea legs, as well as get a great shake down on the boat, and really get to know her. It would all depend on dates and when the transaction is completed (and weather of course), so we’ll see how it all works out!

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 11:01am

Sale & Purchase Agreement signed & deposit paid, so here she is...
(Of course she's a First)

Beneteau First 285

Decks & cockpit need a good scrub, but apart from that, she's spotless.

Lift, powerwash & survey booked for next Thursday. The Marina she's in have a SeaLift, and they do a 24 hour Antifouling service, so I might avail of it (as I'm half thinking of keeping her afloat this winter, so If I did, she'd need to be anti fouled).

neris · 20-07-2018 11:58am

Well done. Those older beneteuas are great boats and much better quality then what they produced in the early-mid 2000s. Looks nicely set up for cruising. Where will you keep you back here?

Tabnabs · 20-07-2018 12:07pm

That's a lot of boat for £16k. She'll give years of good service to you.

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 12:36pm

The plan is Malahide Marina for the rest of this season, and possibly this winter as well (Malahide or Poolbeg), with a view to getting her into Rogerstown Estuary next year (hence the wing keel being an advantage), although I know nothing of mooring availability there.
Once I get her I want to join Rush Sailing Club and make the mooring enquiries from then on, Although Malahide Marina next season might be an option as well.

Having previously only ever had boats on moorings, it would be nice to be in a marina for a change.

neris · 20-07-2018 12:49pm

if your keeping her in malahide would you not join the club there? been on a marina is so handy. i was on a mooring for one summer season and was a real pain in the backside. ended up on the marina over winter and stayed there permanently

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 2:04pm

neris wrote: »

if your keeping her in malahide would you not join the club there?

Rush is my local club, and I'd probably prefer to be a member there so as to avail of the junior section for my son in a few years, and also to be closer to the social side of things. I believe some of the bigger boat owners in Rush also keep their boats on the marina at Malahide.

neris wrote: »

i was on a mooring for one summer season and was a real pain in the backside. ended up on the marina over winter and stayed there permanently

In Poolbeg we only ever had moorings in my time there, so yeah, it was a pain in the hoop at times (the club tender situation could get quite bad at times). I did have the mini tonner out in Howth for a Brass Monkeys one year, and being on a marina felt like heaven at the time (even if it was only for 6-7 weeks), so yeah, I've a funny feeling she'll be staying on the marina in Malahide for a few years!!

neris · 20-07-2018 10:36pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Rush is my local club, and I'd probably prefer to be a member there so as to avail of the junior section for my son in a few years, and also to be closer to the social side of things. I believe some of the bigger boat owners in Rush also keep their boats on the marina at Malahide.QUOTE]

And the bigger racier ones in Howth

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 10:52pm

Well, yeah, that’s where Storm is isn’t it?

I see her in the guys garden on the way into Rush during the winter months

neris · 20-07-2018 11:43pm

Storm & King 1 they have

AndyBoBandy · 20-07-2018 11:57pm

My brother raced a lot on King 1 when she was in Poolbeg, then she was replaced by Decibel

neris · 21-07-2018 12:17am

Shes on her 2nd howth owner now. Think she came from dl in early 2000s to howth. Was in poolbeg before DL? There was another few 1/2s in poolbeg. Chia chia & fenor

AndyBoBandy · 21-07-2018 6:51am

Yep, she was in Poolbeg for a good few years in the late 80’s

TomOnBoard · 21-07-2018 7:01am

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Sale & Purchase Agreement signed & deposit paid, so here she is...
(Of course she's a First)

Beneteau First 285

Decks & cockpit need a good scrub, but apart from that, she's spotless.

Lift, powerwash & survey booked for next Thursday. The Marina she's in have a SeaLift, and they do a 24 hour Antifouling service, so I might avail of it (as I'm half thinking of keeping her afloat this winter, so If I did, she'd need to be anti fouled).

Did you bottom out the question of whether there is a VAT-paid record/invoice or does ownwership go far enough back to be included in the Revenue definition of VAT compliance? Im thinking it might become quite important (as in closer inspections) for sailing in French and other EU waters post Brexit.

On the verge of purchasing a boat from the U.K.

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