Opening a Yacht & Boatbuilding School in Ireland

geminidawn · 28-07-2009 3:48pm #1

I have been working as a professional boatbuilder from traditional to modern methods for some years.
I found it unfortunate that I had to travel to UK to acquire all the formal qualifications which are now required by the EU and the RCD espically for modern fabrication and major insurance work.
When I am in need of assistance I find it hard to get good skilled workers, on the otherhand I am amazed at the ammount of people who contact me because they too want to learn the trade.
Now I am thinking of setting up such a school in Ireland aiming at teaching those who are interested in boat building and repair as a career or a pastime to learn the trade and the modern methods required by todays standards in a working boatshop rather than a college environment.
In your opinion do you think this is a viable project?

Tabnabs · 28-07-2009 4:18pm

The Irish leisure marine market is tiny compared to practically all our neighbours. If I do a course with you then what? I can't see there being a need for more than a handful of knowledgeable people arriving onto the market every 4/5 years. We have no real indigenous boat building industry and very few quality repair yards. A night school for keen amateurs would probably make more sense.

geminidawn · 28-07-2009 6:39pm

Dyflin wrote: »

The Irish leisure marine market is tiny compared to practically all our neighbours. If I do a course with you then what? I can't see there being a need for more than a handful of knowledgeable people arriving onto the market every 4/5 years. We have no real indigenous boat building industry and very few quality repair yards. A night school for keen amateurs would probably make more sense.

Some good points, I wouldn't say the market is small as the marine market is international, but the Irish Marine Industry is tiny and it is suprising we have no real indigenous boat building industry since we are a seafaring island nation and the one thing this country needs is industry.
With the very few quality repair yards you mentioned I can only imagine that is due to the lack of training, hence I had to move away to persue a serious career in this trade.
Boatbuilding has kept me in work for the past 20yrs and has given me the opportuinity to travel as it is a trade in which you need a good broad knowledge of what you are doing.
While regarding a night school for keen amateurs is part of the proposal it would probably serve only those who want to learn amateur "stitch and glue style" boatbuilding for a hobby or learn how to maintain their own boats. Yacht and boatbuilding is a multi-disciplined trade and it is very limited as to what you can learn part time.

Tabnabs · 29-07-2009 9:26am

Small scale boat building is almost dead and gone. Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Maxum, etc. etc. all build 1000s of boats which are sold to the masses. Our only real indigenous industry here is a couple of RIB manufacturers and OSM. We have had sporadic boat building yards (Ruffian's, Malahide Trawlers etc.) and they have all closed up after a number of years.

To set up a school in Ireland it would have to be of the highest quality to compete with well established foreign centres.The other point to keep in mind for potential students is, what's the point in training if you have to go abroad to get a job? It's a limited market you are appealing to.

Where are you planning to base the school?

Will you tie it in with an existing educational centre?

What accreditation can you offer?

What demonstrable contacts do you have in the international boat building and repair industry to provide a pathway to employment for potential students?

What is your teaching background?

Do you have access to the tools for boatbuilding for a group of people, moulds for hulls, old hulls to be repaired etc. etc. A boatshed, workshop, paintshop and classroom facilities?

Do you know the costs involved of setting up and running such a school and can you earn a living by having just two or three students who need full time tuition and appraisal?

The list goes on and on

geminidawn · 29-07-2009 12:20pm

Dyflin wrote: »

Small scale boat building is almost dead and gone. Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Maxum, etc. etc. all build 1000s of boats which are sold to the masses. Our only real indigenous industry here is a couple of RIB manufacturers and OSM. We have had sporadic boat building yards (Ruffian's, Malahide Trawlers etc.) and they have all closed up after a number of years.

The mass built boats are those that are sold to the masses, sailing centres and such, they all need maintainance and repair, I have worked on hundreds of them, Boat maintainance and repair takes up about 50% of my working time. Trust me there is a career in maintainance alone.

Dyflin wrote: »

To set up a school in Ireland it would have to be of the highest quality to compete with well established foreign centres.The other point to keep in mind for potential students is, what's the point in training if you have to go abroad to get a job? It's a limited market you are appealing to.

The school would have to be of the highest quality for building and repair after all you are dealing with a potentially hazzardous environment and you dont want to be sending people out to sea in a skip or a badly repaired boat. As regards to going abroad to get a job, well I returned here due to demand and my order book is always full, I need help but I can't get the skills in the workforce that I need

Dyflin wrote: »

Where are you planning to base the school?

Will you tie it in with an existing educational centre?

What accreditation can you offer?

I'm thinking Galway

No I'll try to keep it independent.

Something recognised like City & Guilds

Dyflin wrote: »

What demonstrable contacts do you have in the international boat building and repair industry to provide a pathway to employment for potential students?

What is your teaching background?

Loads, worked with some prestigious boatyards and designers in and around Europe and made a name in concept design.

I teach on a regular basis, when ever I am contracted to do so, usually by sailing schools or clubs that want to learn about fleet maintainance and repair

Dyflin wrote: »

Do you have access to the tools for boatbuilding for a group of people, moulds for hulls, old hulls to be repaired etc. etc. A boatshed, workshop, paintshop and classroom facilities?

Do you know the costs involved of setting up and running such a school and can you earn a living by having just two or three students who need full time tuition and appraisal?

The list goes on and on

More tools and moulds than I can get to use myself and there is no end of osmosis ridden boats and project boats needing repair. Classroom facilities will need to be provided as there is a lot of theory involved.

Yes I am aware of the costs and it would be naive of me to think that the schools only source of income would be from the course fees,the idea being they would learn a trade in a real working boatshop rather than a college environment.

Tabnabs · 29-07-2009 12:55pm

geminidawn wrote: »

The mass built boats are those that are sold to the masses, sailing centres and such, they all need maintainance and repair, I have worked on hundreds of them, Boat maintainance and repair takes up about 50% of my working time. Trust me there is a career in maintainance alone.

If you think of a big boating centre like Dublin, there must be around 2000 boats over 18ft there? You have Noonan's Boatyard in Wicklow, an independent guy working out of Malahide boatyard and the Brennan's. A max of 6 people working on about 2000 boats. They make a living out of it, but the market would seem to be full at that. So Dublin is taken care of, Cork is a much more established boating centre and has similar facilities. Outside of this there is capacity for a few independents to work around harbours. But just how many jobs are sustainable in boat maintenance and repair?

As regards to going abroad to get a job, well I returned here due to demand and my order book is always full, I need help but I can't get the skills in the workforce that I need

No I'll try to keep it independent.

More tools and moulds than I can get to use myself and there is no end of osmosis ridden boats and project boats needing repair. Classroom facilities will need to be provided as there is a lot of theory involved.

Yes I am aware of the costs and it would be naive of me to think that the schools only source of income would be from the course fees,the idea being they would learn a trade in a real working boatshop rather than a college environment.

It sounds more like an apprenticeship than a "school" as such? Also, it sounds like you are thinking of opening a small boatyard and teaching people to repair the boats you have in?

It just strikes me that there probably isn't a market for a formal school, but then there also aren't any apprenticeship opportunities either, unless you are family or friends of existing companies.

I would have concerns about Galway as a location though, this is something I would look to have in an area with a large boat population, so Cork and then Dublin would be my first choices.

geminidawn · 29-07-2009 2:50pm

Dyflin wrote: »

It sounds more like an apprenticeship than a "school" as such? Also, it sounds like you are thinking of opening a small boatyard and teaching people to repair the boats you have in?

It just strikes me that there probably isn't a market for a formal school, but then there also aren't any apprenticeship opportunities either, unless you are family or friends of existing companies.

Sure it may sound more of an apprenticeship than a "school" on saying that the apprenticeship I served here alone was not good enough to get me a job as I needed formal qualifications to go with it, and a college course alone can't give you the every day work experience of a boat shop or a boat yard. In the end I had to do both as the requirements of the EU and the RCD now demand.

Therefore with this venture I am trying to cover both. Give someone who is interested in working with yachts and boats as a career a good ground to begin with and from there they can decide if the want to go into repair, manufacture, or design.

Boatbuilding is a trade where you will never learn enough, as soon as you master one skill there is always a new technology on the horizon and where there is that, there is always a demand for education and skilled work.

At the end of the day whatever it will be, regardless of demand it will be an operation with a small number of students, due to the tools, machines and chemicals used there is a strict student/teacher ratio that has to be adheared to for liability reasons, hence the "school" could not survive on course fees alone but can offer those that want to learn a step in the right direction.

Delphi91 · 11-08-2009 2:28am

Check out here:

http://www.stjohnscollege.ie/index.php?pageID=30

Mike

geminidawn · 11-08-2009 6:46am

Delphi91 wrote: »

Check out here:

http://www.stjohnscollege.ie/index.php?pageID=30

Mike

Cheers Mike, I already did, I had a good look to see what was already out there. I phoned them before I posted this thread to find out more details and I was told it may not be running this year. Not due to lack of demand but due to the fact it was hard to find someone qualified to deliver the course.

Jayceeone · 01-09-2009 4:26pm

Hi Geminidawn,

How did you get on with this idea. Did you make any progress. Its sounds really interesting. I live in Galway and am considering moving to UK to do boat building course.

geminidawn · 01-09-2009 6:58pm

Jayceeone wrote: »

Hi Geminidawn,

How did you get on with this idea. Did you make any progress. Its sounds really interesting. I live in Galway and am considering moving to UK to do boat building course.

Thank you for your interest but I'm sure as you can well appreciate Rome was not built in a day and where some have got a hill to climb I think that I have chosen the North Face of Eiger, well in terms of paperwork anyway.
I am currently in talks with City & Guilds with regards to being able to deliver their qualifications and in all honesty if this is to be done right and by the book, I estimate it will take at least 12 months before I see anything begin to materialize.
What kind of boats were you hoping to build?

JayMcD · 07-10-2009 12:37pm

I live in Galway, I've recently come home after 4 years working as a professional bot builder, I also have some console, seat, and engine well Aframe designs to my name. I'd be intrested in being part of any boating industry in Galway.

Quickskipper · 19-11-2009 10:14pm

geminidawn wrote: »

Thank you for your interest but I'm sure as you can well appreciate Rome was not built in a day and where some have got a hill to climb I think that I have chosen the North Face of Eiger, well in terms of paperwork anyway.
I am currently in talks with City & Guilds with regards to being able to deliver their qualifications and in all honesty if this is to be done right and by the book, I estimate it will take at least 12 months before I see anything begin to materialize.

I've just come into this thread after thinking about the potential for such a course, which actually seems to tap into an expanding market. Lifestyle changes, skilled workers relocating to the countryside from urban centres, a developing interest in the authentic and heritage industry and the absolutely underdeveloped boatbuilding industry in a maritime country. Living and sailing on the Galway Bay, a really profesional boatbuilding course would interest me greatly. I wonder what possibilities there would be for tapping into the woodworking facilities at GMIT Letterfrack and all the acreditation that regional ITs can command? I lecture in GMIT Galway and I'm looking at possibilities for careers for my grandson who comes from a long line of Cornish boatbuilders-To put it another way it would be a stroke of genius to add a boatbuilding course to what they do there- and very close to Clifden. You have my full support for one

dloob · 20-11-2009 12:15am

Well if the harbor development goes ahead as planned and we get 300ish berth marina that would be a big boost in the number of customers needing repairs and maintenance.

We could do with a decent chandlers too.

geminidawn · 20-11-2009 1:12pm

Quickskipper wrote: »

I wonder what possibilities there would be for tapping into the woodworking facilities at GMIT Letterfrack and all the acreditation that regional ITs can command? I lecture in GMIT Galway and I'm looking at possibilities for careers for my grandson who comes from a long line of Cornish boatbuilders-To put it another way it would be a stroke of genius to add a boatbuilding course to what they do there- and very close to Clifden. You have my full support for one

I thought about this before and it would be one sure way of fast tracking the whole idea than trying to do it as an independent. I just wasn't sure of who to approach. I managed to talk to some one from FAS and they presented me with another mountain of paperwork of what is required to attain their approval which in it's self would take months or red tape. Even after that they weren't interested in a comprehensive boat building course, they were more interested in me delivering a quick "bolt on" three month course in grp and modern composites that could encompass the marine, motor and aeronautical trade.
Personally I'd prefer to stick to the boats see some one learn a good and full trade and learn it well, the wood working is an important part of that.
Forgive me for being blunt but from what I see in boat yards and marinas all over the world, the marine industry in Ireland really needs a good kick up the arse to get it up an running. It's totally overlooked and totally under developed. From our history and relationship with the sea we should be putting Maritime Ireland on the map!

nyrne2 · 07-01-2011 11:37am

reading this a bit late but really interested in what came of it, live in donegal and would love to learn traditional boat building.

geminidawn · 07-01-2011 12:39pm

nyrne2 wrote: »

reading this a bit late but really interested in what came of it, live in donegal and would love to learn traditional boat building.

Many thanks for your interest.
To be honest with all the cut backs in education it didn't really get anywhere and trying to get a straight answer with the education institutions and authorities is like chasing the wind. They were all interested and didn't hesitate to let me know what a good idea it was but that's as far as it went.

However if it's traditional boat building you're looking to learn you are in luck. There are still a few funded single traditional boat building projects around the country that have got grants for educational purposes I know of one in Clare and one in Cork and these traditional projects surface from time to time to keep the skills alive so there is hope for you yet.

I however was looking to train others not only in the traditional but also in the modern methods so the qualified trainees could set about developing their own building and repair business and help generate the Irish Maritime Industry and export market.
Ironically enough I got an offer from the far east to go over there and teach modern western Boat Building skills to help broaden their export market. I have to say I really admire their drive and enthusiasm and I am seriously considering it, they focus more on what they can do rather than what they can't.

I'm now working developing a small craft production and survey business for myself, however the education side of things here is something I'd still like to see happen.

fergal.b · 07-01-2011 1:27pm

It is real shame crafts like this are becoming a thing of the past I would have loved to have done a course in this when I was younger and even now.
I have been doing a bit of boat building at home and if anyone would like to give it a go I will help them out as much as I can.
This is my first build.
http://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx179/fergalbutler/

And this is what I am working on now, Not traditional irish boats but fun to build.
http://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx179/fergalbutler/crackerbox/

geminidawn · 07-01-2011 3:25pm

fergal.b wrote: »

It is real shame crafts like this are becoming a thing of the past I would have loved to have done a course in this when I was younger and even now.
I have been doing a bit of boat building at home and if anyone would like to give it a go I will help them out as much as I can.
This is my first build.
http://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx179/fergalbutler/

And this is what I am working on now, Not traditional irish boats but fun to build.
http://s753.photobucket.com/albums/xx179/fergalbutler/crackerbox/

That's a real smart looking boat, well done!
To be honest the college I attended was a well mixed bunch, of all ages and backgrounds. It consisted of those looking for a career in the Maritime Industry, those looking for a change and those looking for something constructive to do in their retirement.
It's one of those crafts or trades that is timeless and it is never too late to start.

lazza · 05-07-2011 1:02am

I found your idea of boat building school very interesting. I am looking for a course myself and it seems the uk is the closest place for one. You mentioned that you studied in england and I am wondering which school you attented. I have been looking at the boat building academy in lyme regis and IBTC in suffolk. Do you know anything about these?

ISAW · 05-07-2011 10:07am

Great idea.
As regards accreditation, talk to Udaras maybe instead of FAS. FAS is about to be restructured. Udaras might enable you to set up a company with 10% tax.
FAs run courses in certifying training.
You probably need FETAC registration
http://www.fetac.ie/fetac/providers/registration/howto.htm

I would have thought Galway Kerry or Donegal. You might also get away with Rathcairn in Meath.

What is your market? What investment is required.
Have you costed it? - labour equipment buildings materials?
Cashflow projections?
You might also consider looking into similar in Cornwall or Britanny and advertising there for interest. It seems a bit like the thatched cottage trade where most of the Irish forgot how to do it

and a Breton ended up teaching it here. We dont want to go that far behind.

Mind you we have a space industry and people dont claim "NASA is to big and we cant compete". If you really want to go up market the fifth framework programme an EU research programme funds research in high tech developments. You could link with and IT or University and get partners say in Lorient in Britanny and the like. It costs 25k to make out an application but FORFAS have a 25k grant and I know a few people who do it fulltime. You are better off getting the grant and doing it yourself however. By yourself I mean GMIT or whomsoever you work with. Probably better to get someone elsewher to apply and you or GMIT or whoever be an Irish partner to their application.
NB these are for development and communication and networking of research and new developments not heritage.

It would take a while for me to to explain even if you look it up
http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/home_en.html

there are a load of traditional boat building families in Connemara. many are now losing the link with the boats. I'm sure some have either the tools location, or interest. I don't know if they have an association. I could put you in touch with a parish priest who would be interested maybe in getting some people together. His background is in starting farming and fishing co operatives in Connemara and he might have some insight into how/who to contact. Your best bet is to go and talk to him in person rather than just talk over the phone. Other than that good luck fine idea.

geminidawn · 14-07-2011 1:28pm

lazza wrote: »

I found your idea of boat building school very interesting. I am looking for a course myself and it seems the uk is the closest place for one. You mentioned that you studied in england and I am wondering which school you attented. I have been looking at the boat building academy in lyme regis and IBTC in suffolk. Do you know anything about these?

Yes I know of both of them and both of them are expensive but good. They also tend to go more for the traditional style which I have nothing against if that's what you are looking for. However the employment and the work is in composites, if I were looking to make a career out of it I'd be looking for course that covers composite building and repair along with everything else.

geminidawn · 14-07-2011 1:46pm

Many thanks ISAW,That's some of the most construcive advice yet!

Slig · 14-07-2011 3:37pm

Surely if there was a time to set up a school teaching an innovative (non construction related) trade now is the time for it. We are on an island where 90% (slightly exagerated) of the population is leaving, surely there must be some demand for boats!

There are a record number of new businesses opening around the country and people are prepared to try new things. A trade that someone can train in, with the potential of starting their own small business from the back of a van and that is also internationally recognised sounds like a perfectly feasable prospect. Having a qualification that is valued in, say, the UK where their leisure boat industry is much larger as opposed to one where Canada or Australia is the closest job prospect must also be appealing

geminidawn · 14-07-2011 4:18pm

Slig wrote: »

Surely if there was a time to set up a school teaching an innovative (non construction related) trade now is the time for it. We are on an island where 90% (slightly exagerated) of the population is leaving, surely there must be some demand for boats!

There are a record number of new businesses opening around the country and people are prepared to try new things. A trade that someone can train in, with the potential of starting their own small business from the back of a van and that is also internationally recognised sounds like a perfectly feasable prospect. Having a qualification that is valued in, say, the UK where their leisure boat industry is much larger as opposed to one where Canada or Australia is the closest job prospect must also be appealing

You would think, wouldn't you, but as Gavin Duffy says "this country is a democracy strangled by bureaucracy" the idea of me trading my skills elsewhere is fast becoming a reality.

mr.mickels · 07-08-2011 10:39pm

geminidawn wrote: »

Many thanks for your interest.
To be honest with all the cut backs in education it didn't really get anywhere and trying to get a straight answer with the education institutions and authorities is like chasing the wind. They were all interested and didn't hesitate to let me know what a good idea it was but that's as far as it went.

However if it's traditional boat building you're looking to learn you are in luck. There are still a few funded single traditional boat building projects around the country that have got grants for educational purposes I know of one in Clare and one in Cork and these traditional projects surface from time to time to keep the skills alive so there is hope for you yet.

I however was looking to train others not only in the traditional but also in the modern methods so the qualified trainees could set about developing their own building and repair business and help generate the Irish Maritime Industry and export market.
Ironically enough I got an offer from the far east to go over there and teach modern western Boat Building skills to help broaden their export market. I have to say I really admire their drive and enthusiasm and I am seriously considering it, they focus more on what they can do rather than what they can't.

I'm now working developing a small craft production and survey business for myself, however the education side of things here is something I'd still like to see happen.

The very very best of luck to you on this. It's great to see someone with a bit of initiative and imagination try to organise something constructive.
I have had a fair bit of dealings with various government/civil/public service departments over the years. I can tell you that it is highly unlikely you will find anyone there who will do anything to help you, they are there to put red-tape, masses of useless paperwork and discouragement in front of you, block you attempting anything useful and if you do manage to make a success of it, then they will try to take as much of your profits as possible.
Don't let them discourage you, but don't look to them for support or advice. Trust your own judgement, and if its a viable project then hopefully you will get it off the ground with support from the right-minded individuals. Also worth bearing in mind that you will know alot more about this industry than any civil/public service pen-pusher who knows/cares little of the realities of private sector requirements.
And it does sound like a very interesting course/career.

Fanintheattic · 14-08-2011 5:36pm

Hi
I am extremely interested in getting involved in boatbuilding, it's something I've always wanted to do. I've looked into various courses both here and abroad and basically if youve 20 grand sterling in your back pocket or if your interested in building regional boats fine you can get a place. But there is absolutely no place to train in all types of boatbuilding methods.
Your idea is a great one. It's a pity you seem to running into a brick wall on the government side. I've served my time as a carpenter and I can tell you for a fact that FAS is a dinosaur out dated methods and ideas and no desire to change. The new body that is talking it over will be the exact same.
I would love to train with somebody with as much experience as yourself.
If your looking for an apprentice give me a shout.

mr.mickels · 15-08-2011 11:01pm

Fanintheattic wrote: »

Hi
I am extremely interested in getting involved in boatbuilding, it's something I've always wanted to do. I've looked into various courses both here and abroad and basically if youve 20 grand sterling in your back pocket or if your interested in building regional boats fine you can get a place. But there is absolutely no place to train in all types of boatbuilding methods.
Your idea is a great one. It's a pity you seem to running into a brick wall on the government side. I've served my time as a carpenter and I can tell you for a fact that FAS is a dinosaur out dated methods and ideas and no desire to change. The new body that is talking it over will be the exact same.
I would love to train with somebody with as much experience as yourself.
If your looking for an apprentice give me a shout.

FAS is there to serve the individuals making money out of FAS

fergal.b · 16-08-2011 10:51am

Fanintheattic wrote: »

Hi
I am extremely interested in getting involved in boatbuilding, it's something I've always wanted to do. I've looked into various courses both here and abroad and basically if youve 20 grand sterling in your back pocket or if your interested in building regional boats fine you can get a place. But there is absolutely no place to train in all types of boatbuilding methods.
Your idea is a great one. It's a pity you seem to running into a brick wall on the government side. I've served my time as a carpenter and I can tell you for a fact that FAS is a dinosaur out dated methods and ideas and no desire to change. The new body that is talking it over will be the exact same.
I would love to train with somebody with as much experience as yourself.
If your looking for an apprentice give me a shout.

If you would like to teach your self you could start with one of these
http://boatbuilders.glen-l.com/boatbuilding-galleries/

Or there are a few boat builders where you could try and get work as an apprentice.
http://www.yachtworld.com/osullivansmarine/osullivansmarine_0.html

http://www.arklowmarine.ie/

http://www.walshboatworks.ie/page8.php

http://roeboats.com/
Best of luck.

TheFishingKid · 16-09-2011 3:20am

This is a real pity, ive been interested in boat building quite some time and I am a very hands on type of guy especially surrounding woodworking. To be fair I was quite shocked to see very little in courses and opportunity's to learn the craft in Ireland. to closet means of receiving education in this area as it appears to be in england but due to high costs of courses, travel and living. It maybe some years before it can become reality for me and it will have to lye with me for now, but I admire your interest in trying to set up a school in these teaching because everything you have said word for word is exactly I wanted to do.

Opening a Yacht & Boatbuilding School in Ireland

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