Madeleine McCann

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 6:45pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

The fact it wasn't in the public domain doesn't mean it wasn't known to the McCanns.

Doesn't mean they knew either

limnam · 05-02-2020 6:50pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Doesn't mean they knew either

Again.

Not the main issue.

The issue is as she drank brandy and laughed with the pedophile that the evidence wouldn't be able to be used.

limnam · 05-02-2020 7:00pm

You leave a young vulnerable child unsupervised in a foreign country while you go out drinking

In the following days your playing Tennis and jogging around like you don't have a care in the world.

You drink brandy with a pedophile while laughing a man trying to help you find your child's evidence won't be usable.

Refuse to answer police questions when made a suspect.

Hire con men and incompetent companies with no history of finding children squandering hundreds of thousands of pounds.

I guess the important thing is in all of this. Was the pedophile known while drinking the brandy or not.

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 7:08pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

The issue is as she drank brandy and laughed with the pedophile that the evidence wouldn't be able to be used.

How do you know they knew he was a pedophile

They were invited by Freud to his house.

They went had dinner and had a few drinks.

Freud asked about the case.

Kate McCann explained about Cadaver Dogs.

Freud said " What .....are they going to go into the dock and testify"

They laughed at the way he said.

Any link to where they say the evidence couldn't be used ?

limnam · 05-02-2020 7:15pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

How do you know they knew he was a pedophile

They were invited by Freud to his house.

They went had dinner and had a few drinks.

Freud asked about the case.

Kate McCann explained about Cadaver Dogs.

Freud said " What .....are they going to go into the dock and testify"

They laughed at the way he said.

Any link to where they say the evidence couldn't be used ?

I said they drank with a pedophile

The pedophile was stating the dogs evidence couldn't be used. Obviously a dog can't testify on the stand.

She was relived that a man hired to help her wasn't going to be able to use any evidence.

She laughed and joked with a pedophile while drinking brandy about her missing daughter that they left unsupervised while they went drinking.

But yeah. The real problem is did they know if he was a pedophile or not.

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 7:17pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

She was relived that a man hired to help her wasn't going to be able to use any evidence.S.

What man

limnam · 05-02-2020 7:20pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

What man

Mr. Grimes.

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 7:24pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Mr. Grimes.

Ah Mr Grime

From Martin Grime 13-04-2018

Human Remains Detection Dogs (HRDD): Sometimes referred to as a Victim Recovery Dog (VRD), or Cadaver Dog, will specifically discriminate, and detect, human deceased victims, inclusive of dismembered parts, in all environments / contexts, on the surface, sub-surface, on land, and in water.

The dogs should be trained to generalise the spectrum of decomposition process to allow for the investigation of recent death to cold case historical remains.

This type of detection dog may detect human blood as a sub-set of human decomposition.

Canines trained with the inclusion of animal remains (pig, pork) cannot be referred to as HRDD

http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/1/Forensic%20Canine%20Foundation%20.pdf

In the UK it is against the law to train dogs with human Cadavers.

Eddie was trained on pig meat so was not a Cadaver Dog according to Mr Grime

limnam · 05-02-2020 7:26pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Ah Mr Grime

In the UK it is against the law to train dogs with human Cadavers.

Eddie was trained on pig meat so was not a Cadaver Dog according to Mr Grime

What has this got to do with them drinking with a pedophile and laughing and joking about a man trying to help find her "missing" child that the dogs evidence wouldn't be usable in court?

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 7:34pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Mr. Grimes.

limnam wrote: »

What has this got to do with them drinking with a pedophile and laughing and joking about a man trying to help find her "missing" child that the dogs evidence wouldn't be usable in court?

You mentioned Mr Grime.

The said dog (eddie) was not a trained cadaver dog according to Mr Grime.

limnam · 05-02-2020 7:36pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

You mentioned Mr Grime.

The said dog (eddie) was not a trained cadaver dog according to Mr Grime.

OK but what has that got to do with them laughing and joking with a pedophile relieved that the dogs wouldn't be able to be used?

gozunda · 05-02-2020 7:39pm

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

Feast your eyes: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html

Ah the Daily Mail! Well done* - excellent reference

MonkieSocks · 05-02-2020 7:43pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

OK but what has that got to do with them laughing and joking with a pedophile relieved that the dogs wouldn't be able to be used?

Again it wasn't public knowledge that Freud was pedophile.

From Kates book

Thankfully, though, there were some nice surprises, too, arising in particular from the kindness and friendship of some wonderful people now entering our lives.

At the beginning of July we received the following letter:
Dear McCanns,
I have a house in P da L, been ashamed of the intrusion to your lives by our media . . . and if you would care to come to lunch/dinner at any time before Wednesday next, do ring and let me know.

I cook decent meals.

Sincerely,

Clement Freud

I’m embarrassed to admit that Gerry and I thought this letter was a hoax; more embarrassing still, while we were vaguely aware of Sir Clement, we had to have our memories refreshed by Sandy and Justine before we could place him exactly.

Mind you, he wore so many hats – humorist, MP, gourmet, gambler, press columnist, advertiser of dog food, radio and TV personality – that he was hard to pin down.

Gerry responded with a phone call and Sir Clement invited the seven of us there at that time – Gerry and myself with Sean and Amelie, plus Trisha, Sandy and Justine – to lunch the following day. He would be heading back to the UK a few hours later

the_pen_turner · 05-02-2020 7:53pm

Something Else

who was freud. why would they go to meet him. why would you go to have a meet with some random person that wrote to you, most people wouldnt do that normally let alone after their child was "kidnapped"

gozunda · 05-02-2020 7:59pm

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

Don't worry, the same MO unfolded - dogs barked in the garage and the body of the person they were looking for was found many kilometers away on the bank of a stream/river. Don't think any forensic evidence was recovered from the scene of the barks, just as with Portugal, Jersey and Shannon Mathews. 0 out of 4 since retiring from the Police force.

Really? I presume you are referencing the Attracta Herron Case in Northern Ireland where Eddie the dog helped find the victims remains?

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/strabane-murder-sniffer-dog-on-netflix-maddie-series-37938452.html

https://strabanechronicle.com/2013/12/a-decade-fails-to-ease-husbands-pain/

Bizarre how some are so negative regarding the succesfull use of such dogs by police forces worldwide in helping to find crime scenes and the victims of crime.

But hey fuk that **** right? ...

cnocbui · 05-02-2020 8:37pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

gozunda wrote: »

Really? I presume you are referencing the Attracta Herron Case in Northern Ireland where Eddie the dog helped find the victims remains?

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/strabane-murder-sniffer-dog-on-netflix-maddie-series-37938452.html

https://strabanechronicle.com/2013/12/a-decade-fails-to-ease-husbands-pain/

Bizarre how some are so negative regarding the succesfull use of such dogs by police forces worldwide in helping to find crime scenes and the victims of crime.

But hey fuk that **** right? ...

You assume wrong. I was perfectly clear. The success rate for Eddie and Keela and their trainer - Grimes - since they left the Police force and went private, is as far as I know, zero. I understand why you and others want the dogs elevated to the status of infallible nose witnesses, but thankfully, that's not how the criminal justice system works in most countries, barring the ever moronic US, of course.

There's an oft repeated phrase in investing which fits perfectly - Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results.

So yes, F'k that. Grimes, the dog handler and trainer couldn't have been clearer in his statement as contained in the Polícia Judiciária files on the case - his dogs do not create evidence. What they 'do' is not evidence. They attempt to find evidence Nothing they do or say(bark) in the process of trying to find evidence, is itself, evidence. They didn't find any forensic evidence in the locations the dogs barked.

gozunda · 05-02-2020 8:45pm

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

You assume wrong. I was perfectly clear. The success rate for Eddie and Keela and their trainer - Grimes - since they left the Police force and went private, is as far as I know, zero. I understand why you and others want the dogs elevated to the status of infallible nose witnesses, but thankfully, that's not how the criminal justice system works in most countries, barring the ever moronic US, of course.There's an oft repeated phrase in investing which fits perfectly - Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results.So yes, F'k that. Grimes, the dog handler and trainer couldn't have been clearer in his statement as contained in the Polícia Judiciária files on the case - his dogs do not create evidence. What they 'do' is not evidence. They attempt to find evidence Nothing they do or say(bark) in the process of trying to find evidence, is itself, evidence. They didn't find any forensic evidence in the locations the dogs barked.

So you were not referencing the detection of Attracta Harrons remains by a stream by eddie et al no? Right so.

And why would the same dog suddenly decide to go on a work to rule? The dogs were brought in on the advice of the UK police authorities. So what gives? Just because the name "McCann' is involved? Stranger and stranger. Somethings smells badly alright and that's not just cadaverine ...

No one claimed detection dogs produce evidence - police forces worldwide use such dogs to provide leads - which these dogs did. Bizarre that the McCanns and others were so hostile to that very idea. As your said f'k that eh?

limnam · 05-02-2020 9:03pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Again it wasn't public knowledge that Freud was pedophile.

From Kates book

The fact it wasn't public knowledge doesn't make him any less of a pedophile

limnam · 05-02-2020 9:10pm

gozunda wrote: »

S

No one claimed detection dogs produce evidence - police forces worldwide use such dogs to provide leads - which these dogs did. Bizarre that the McCanns and others were so hostile to that very idea. As your said f'k that eh?

Spot on.

This is the really concerning issue that i can't understand why anyone would dismiss.

I'm trying to find my daughter. This person has been hired to assist and is spending a lot of tax payers money on.

While you instead p|ss money away on con men and incompetent teams with no experience or history in recovering missing children.

So McCanns p|ss money away aww poor them they were conned.

Trainer and dogs with excellent history in assisting are snake oil sales men

WTF

Boom_Bap · 05-02-2020 9:11pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

The fact it wasn't public knowledge doesn't make him any less of a pedophile

Then repeating it in every post is redundant as by repeating it I believe that you are trying to assert that the McCanns were aware of this, which we don't actually know.

limnam · 05-02-2020 9:18pm

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Then repeating it in every post is redundant as by repeating it I believe that you are trying to assert that the McCanns were aware of this, which we don't actually know.

Incorrect, I switched to calling him a pedophile which what he was.

I stopped saying known. But Monkie socks kept repeating the fact it wasn't known.

But I understand the point you were trying to make.

Spanish Eyes · 05-02-2020 9:22pm

The parents played a blinder IMO. With help from many high placed sources in Britain immediately. Their contacts were amazing!

Uh Oh await the fallout now. But I don't care.

cnocbui · 05-02-2020 9:29pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

gozunda wrote: »

So you were not referencing the detection of Attracta Herrons remains by a stream by eddie et al no? Right so.

And why would the same dog suddenly decide to go on a work to rule? The dogs were brought in on the advice of the UK police authorities. So what gives? Just because the name "McCann's is involved. Stranger and stranger. Somethings smells badly alright and that's not just cadaverine ...

No one claimed detection dogs produce evidence - police forces worldwide use such dogs to provide leads - which these dogs did. Bizarre that the McCanns and others were so hostile to that very idea. As your said f'k that eh?

That's right, I wasn't, I was referencing a case in the US.

These dogs did not find any relevant forensic evidence. You claim they provided leads. Your claim is false.

Why the dogs, blah, blah, blah? Finally you you are getting close to why the actions of dogs are irrelevant - you can't ask them 'why', and they can't reply, so it's all irrelevant.

gozunda · 05-02-2020 10:00pm

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

That's right, I wasn't, I was referencing a case in the US.
These dogs did not find any relevant forensic evidence. You claim they provided leads. Your claim is false.Why the dogs, blah, blah, blah? Finally you you are getting close to why the actions of dogs are irrelevant - you can't ask them 'why', and they can't reply, so it's all irrelevant.

Well there you are - the Atrracta Harron case is a perfect example for you of these dogs helping to successfully find the body of the victim in question.

And yes the dogs did indeed find leads in the mccann case - go read the transcripts if you dont know that was the case.

"Why the dogs, blah, blah, blah?" - lol. Are you quoting yourself? Not my comment anyway.

But to that - as in the Attractra Harron case - the police did not need to ask the dogs 'why'. Bizarre that is not understood for some strange reason. Perhaps much of the same reason apparently the McCanns found Freuds comment hilarious considering the police were in the process of trying to find what happened to the McCanns own child. But hey let's just ignore all that right?

juno10353 · 06-02-2020 1:53pm

Something Else

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114

limnam · 06-02-2020 1:58pm

juno10353 wrote: »

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114

404

juno10353 · 06-02-2020 2:08pm

Something Else

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html

This should work.

limnam · 06-02-2020 4:48pm

juno10353 wrote: »

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/attracta-sniffer-dog-joins-hunt-for-new-killer-28114027.html

This should work.

Hard to understand people trying so hard to discredit him and the dogs.

Seems like a genuine person trying to help people.

Yet never mention the con men and incompetence of the people hired by the McCanns who they spent hundreds of thousands on

Butson · 06-02-2020 5:21pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

"Maddie" podcast is excellent

Particularly the "Red Flags" episode

OwlsZat · 07-02-2020 2:38pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The parents played a blinder IMO. With help from many high placed sources in Britain immediately. Their contacts were amazing!

Uh Oh await the fallout now. But I don't care.

Did they really?

I don't think they played a blinder. Rather they were exceptionally lucky. There were witnesses that saw someone likely Gerry carrying dead Madeline down towards the beach. Did he hide her with Freud? Perhaps they were tipped off that he would hide her given his taste for girls her age.

Anyways no security cameras. Very lucky. They did leave physical evidence. The DNA samples are still there if there was any real desire to solve the case. There isn't.

Their statements/cover up was full of inaccuracies, red flags embedded confessions and bare faced lies. It was all there. The desire from the top to bring them to justice the only missing ingredient. I don't think they played a blinder. Rather they were exceptionally lucky that they somehow had the authorities complicit in covering the death up.

xalot · 11-02-2020 4:03pm

Something Else

Am working my way through the podcast and just finished the DNA episode. One thing I dont understand is all the fuss about the full/partial DNA match in the rental car after she had disappeared. Surely they still had all her clothes, toys etc. that they brought on holiday and that would have her DNA on it, or am I missing something?

TheW1zard · 11-02-2020 4:13pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

Went through the Maddie podcasts, hmmmm,

Whats the story with Gerry leaving the table for 30mins during dinner?
How come he says he was on the other side of the road?
Why does he go in through the front door?
Why dont the other kids wake up when the police are there?

Shutters werent opened from the outside.
Timelines dont work for an abductor to happen.

cnocbui · 11-02-2020 4:14pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

xalot wrote: »

Am working my way through the podcast and just finished the DNA episode. One thing I dont understand is all the fuss about the full/partial DNA match in the rental car after she had disappeared. Surely they still had all her clothes, toys etc. that they brought on holiday and that would have her DNA on it, or am I missing something?

If a forensic team were to search your house, they would find more traces of your DNA than they would know what to do with. Would that mean you were dead or had been murdered?

The point about the car is that it was hired after Madeline disappeared. If they had found her blood in the car or DNA in fluids from a decomposing body, that might have meant something, but if they had found a strand of her hair or a skin cell or two, that could easily have come from things like her clothes and toys that were transported in the car.

There has to be something suspicious about the circumstances in which the DNA was found for it to have significance.

Of course, they didn't find any.

nc6000 · 12-02-2020 11:57pm

The parents did it

TheW1zard wrote: »

Timelines dont work for an abductor to happen.

Timelines don't work because I think the statements from the Tapas 7 are all nonsense. They make it sound like there was an almost constant stream of people coming and going to do the various checks on the kids. I don't think there was, I think they made the odd check but it was no way as regular as they made it sound.

OwlsZat · 13-02-2020 8:07pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

There has to be something suspicious about the circumstances in which the DNA was found for it to have significance.

Of course, they didn't find any.

Did you listen to The Maddie podcastd? Do you have a reason in mind why Scotland yard would not accept to have the mixed DNA sample tested by Dr. Mark Perlin?

Where there is truth you set it free. Cover ups come with silence.

cnocbui · 13-02-2020 8:26pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Did you listen to The Maddie podcastd? Do you have a reason in mind why Scotland yard would not accept to have the mixed DNA sample tested by Dr. Mark Perlin?

Where there is truth you set it free. Cover ups come with silence.

I have already explained that finding Madeline's DNA in the car might not be a cause for suspicion. It's the context in which it is found that is important. I can't speak for SY, why don't you ask them?

MoonUnit75 · 13-02-2020 8:49pm

cnocbui wrote: »

If a forensic team were to search your house, they would find more traces of your DNA than they would know what to do with. Would that mean you were dead or had been murdered?

The point about the car is that it was hired after Madeline disappeared. If they had found her blood in the car or DNA in fluids from a decomposing body, that might have meant something, but if they had found a strand of her hair or a skin cell or two, that could easily have come from things like her clothes and toys that were transported in the car.

There has to be something suspicious about the circumstances in which the DNA was found for it to have significance.

Of course, they didn't find any.

That’s not really the case though, hair and dead skin cells can’t be analysed for DNA. In order for DNA to be left behind you have to have remains of cellular material which is transferred by scraping off the skin to enough depth. It doesn’t just fall off you and it is rarely transferred from a person by touch. If you cut your hand with a knife it would likely leave DNA, just holding it will rarely cause living cellular material to remain on it.

Likewise, it’s not easy to transfer either. It is usually attached to something because it was scraped off and will cling to whatever scraped it off. It’s usually certain boldly fluids from a live person that is transferred from item to item.

That’s why they prefer to get a saliva sample for analysis from a living person, just rubbing something on their skin isn’t guaranteed to produce a usable sample.

cnocbui · 13-02-2020 9:27pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I can tell you don't have children

13-02-2020 11:46pm

Something Else

The tapas 7 all lied to try make their neglect not seem so bad. I tried before to put a timeline together based on all of their statements and it was impossible.

I can’t even imagine how they managed to order starters. None of them seemed to be at the table at any given time. There are various different reports of Gerrys whereabouts. Some say he was gone for a long time.

What does it all mean? Well, lying to cover up neglect is understandable even if I don’t agree with it.

But in doing so, they made the case way more confusing. That contributed to Kate / Gerry getting away with murder or perhaps an abductor getting away with abduction.

cnocbui · 14-02-2020 12:06am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I am simply dying to know how you think any version of Tapas-7 tales could have lead to an abductor being found and apprehended.

OwlsZat · 14-02-2020 12:36am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

I have already explained that finding Madeline's DNA in the car might not be a cause for suspicion. It's the context in which it is found that is important. I can't speak for SY, why don't you ask them?

They've been asked directly many times and refuse to answer. They are hiding something else they would have spoken. Your explanation of the DNA reads more like you didnt understand what was going on. I actually thought it was a question.

MonkieSocks · 16-02-2020 7:45pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

I have already explained that finding Madeline's DNA in the car might not be a cause for suspicion. It's the context in which it is found that is important. I can't speak for SY, why don't you ask them?

Yeah...... Scotland Yard can analyse mixed DNA profiles as have many police labs can now.

it's not just Perlin that can do this as been touted.

Our own Forensic Science Ireland (FSI) can do it

The major advances in DNA profiling have not come about without associated challenges. “Because DNA profiling has become so sensitive we now face the challenge of amplifying up a lot of background DNA,” she said. But in the past two years, the FSI has introduced forensic software to help resolve mixed DNA profiles, that is, DNA profiles with more than one contributor, previously thought to be too complex to interpret, called STRmix.

Touch DNA Transfer

“The future of forensic science is exciting. Recent developments in touch DNA are significant. One of the big challenges now facing forensic scientists, is the interpretation of how and when touch DNA was deposited in terms of transfer and persistence,” Dr Ramsbottom sa

https://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/scientific-sleuthing-helps-close-cold-cases-19-09-2019/

OwlsZat · 16-02-2020 9:29pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Yeah...... Scotland Yard can analyse mixed DNA profiles as have many police labs can now.

it's not just Perlin that can do this as been touted.

Our own Forensic Science Ireland (FSI) can do it

https://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/scientific-sleuthing-helps-close-cold-cases-19-09-2019/

MonkieSocks did you listen to the Maddie podcast? The advances in DNA testing are covered in great detail. A newer method of testing the DNA profiles collected mean Scotland Yard could advance the case. There are two different such methods. A free offer was made
by one of the companies. Have a read into Roosevelt Glenn and Darryl Pinkins case where wrongly incarcerated individuals were freed after 40years in jail using one of the methods.

This is also an interesting thread https://reddit.app.link/BcQE4c7m83 I'm unsure why people are so emotionally involved with the family being innocent. So I'm going to unfollow the thread. If at any time Scotland yard is serious about solving the case they will have the DNA samples run through these newer statistical methods to get the maximum information available. Until then it remains obvious to me that the aim of Operation Grange is merely to cover up the accidental death. RIP Madeline.

MonkieSocks · 16-02-2020 11:47pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

MonkieSocks did you listen to the Maddie podcast?

No m8 I didn't

Podcasts are not evidence.

All the files are here http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/sitemap.htm

OwlsZat wrote: »

So I'm going to unfollow the thread.

Take care...in all honesty....I don't think this case will be solved

Prisoner6409 · 26-04-2020 2:12pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

cnocbui wrote: »

I have already explained that finding Madeline's DNA in the car might not be a cause for suspicion. It's the context in which it is found that is important. I can't speak for SY, why don't you ask them?

That might be fine if the cadaver dog did not point to a corpse in the apartment. I think they gave her a sleeping pill or the like and she went into cardiac arrest. Either way the investigation was fatally flawed in no small part attributable to Sky news and their constant reporting of their own take on what happened from the beginning with no evidence. Sky pushed the kidnapping narrative from day one. It is also clear from looking at interviews they gave they are lying or at least obfuscating the truth.

cnocbui · 26-04-2020 2:56pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

That might be fine if the cadaver dog did not point to a corpse in the apartment. I think they gave her a sleeping pill or the like and she went into cardiac arrest. Either way the investigation was fatally flawed in no small part attributable to Sky news and their constant reporting of their own take on what happened from the beginning with no evidence. Sky pushed the kidnapping narrative from day one. It is also clear from looking at interviews they gave they are lying or at least obfuscating the truth.

Woof, woof.....woof woof woof.....woooof!