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Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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    #212
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    In all my years I don't think I've ever seen an In-Goal that's 10 metres long. The In Goal of the back pitch in Donnybrook was even wedged shaped!


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    #213
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Question, if a player is tackled, goes down to a knee as he trys to break through, not fully brought to deck. Can the jackler go in for the ball and have no obligation to release/rebind if the ballcarrier hits the deck?


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    #214
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Question, if a player is tackled, goes down to a knee as he trys to break through, not fully brought to deck. Can the jackler go in for the ball and have no obligation to release?

    Once you are brought down to your knee you are considered to be tackled and you must release.


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    #215
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    When a penalty is given for the defence straying offside from a line-out before the ball has gone 15, where is the mark?


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    #216
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Hagz wrote: »
    When a penalty is given for the defence straying offside from a line-out before the ball has gone 15, where is the mark?

    If they stray offside while the lineout is taking place, the penalty is taken on the 15 metre line parallel to where the offside line was.


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    #217
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Just looking at the law book and tad confused over one aspect of the choke tackle

    Now we know "When the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place."
    We also know if "If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground'"

    So lets pretend opposition holding player up, no ball carrying teammate binds and the player manages to get knee down
    Now this is where I'm a tad confused- as "Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers." - so as far as I can tell the player has no obligation to release the player who was tackled ?

    However the player who is "brought to ground" has to release the ball and we know "No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it."

    So if ball carrier gets knee to ground can ref penalise opposition under the "no player may prevent the tackle player from releasing the ball"?


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    #218
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Chargedown by Ireland that Rhys Priestland kicked out of the Welsh in-goal - I'm hearing if he touched it down it would be a drop out.

    But that doesn't sound right to me, I don't think a chargedown is considered playing at the ball - I would have thought that's effectively defense bringing possession into in-goal and touching down which would be a 5m scrum.

    Who's right?


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    #219
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

    Should the player in possession of the ball go to ground the maul is over, the tackle laws apply and the onus to release comes into play, both on the tackled and tackler. A player need not end up on the ground with the tackled player to complete a tackle; see Horgan at 20 seconds in for an example of same.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxDBi5f26U

    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Just looking at the law book and tad confused over one aspect of the choke tackle

    Now we know "When the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place."
    We also know if "If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground'"

    So lets pretend opposition holding player up, no ball carrying teammate binds and the player manages to get knee down
    Now this is where I'm a tad confused- as "Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers." - so as far as I can tell the player has no obligation to release the player who was tackled ?

    However the player who is "brought to ground" has to release the ball and we know "No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it."

    So if ball carrier gets knee to ground can ref penalise opposition under the "no player may prevent the tackle player from releasing the ball"?


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    #220
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

    oh ya im grand with that bit:)
    Should the player in possession of the ball go to ground the maul is over, the tackle laws apply and the onus to release comes into play, both on the tackled and tackler. A player need not end up on the ground with the tackled player to complete a tackle; see Horgan at 20 seconds in for an example of same.

    see this is where I am confused
    Law Book states:
    • Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
    • Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

    So how come it says here if you "are not tackler" but you have to release the player like you were a tackler?


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    #221
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Law Book states:
    • Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
    • Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

    So how come it says here if you "are not tackler" but you have to release the player like you were a tackler?

    In essence you can't play a player who is on the ground. You may take the ball from a player who is on the ground after a tackle but you can't play them and you can't hinder their effort to release or to pass the ball away or their effort to get to their feet if they weren't held in the tackle.


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    #222
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    thanks, this is what confused me
    So would a decent defense of the poorly named "choke tackle" be to get a knee to the ground and then the opposition player could be penalised as they "prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it"?


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    #223
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    thanks, this is what confused me
    So would a decent defense of the poorly named "choke tackle" be to get a knee to the ground and then the opposition player could be penalised as they "prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it"?

    You can try but it's unlikely to happen. The beauty of the choke tackle is that it is very hard to deal if you fall foul to it. When formed it's nigh impossible for the team in possession to drive the maul forward to try and win a scrum, it's nigh impossible to collapse a choke tackle legally or otherwise in order to try and turn it into a ruck and it's nigh impossible to retain possession by ripping out the ball to try and keep possession. In a way it's a perfect tactic as it's very very difficult to defend against once it's utilised.

    Edit. Having read your post again we need to consider that there is an onus to on the ball carrier to release the ball when grounded as well as the tacler. It's also illegal to collapse a maul.


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    #224
    shrapnel222
    Registered Users Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭shrapnel222


    Nermal wrote: »
    Chargedown by Ireland that Rhys Priestland kicked out of the Welsh in-goal - I'm hearing if he touched it down it would be a drop out.

    But that doesn't sound right to me, I don't think a chargedown is considered playing at the ball - I would have thought that's effectively defense bringing possession into in-goal and touching down which would be a 5m scrum.

    Who's right?

    the ball has come off Toner, and as he was the last person to touch it, Priestland could have grounded the ball for a 22 drop out. Same if the ball goes into touch after a chargedown, the kicking team get the throw in as last person to touch the ball was the blocker.

    Chargedown isn't considered playing the ball in the sense that the ref won't call a knock on against you, however you are still the last person to touch the ball.


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    #225
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

    not technically correct

    the two opposing players standing, as you refer to, have to be joined by one of the ball carriers team mates to form a maul

    there could be 15 defenders around the ball carrier holding him up, but thats not a maul.


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    #226
    degsie
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭degsie


    Might be a silly question but what do the players generally 'chant' in a scrum just after the ref says "set"? Sounds like a count?


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    #227
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    degsie wrote: »
    Might be a silly question but what do the players generally 'chant' in a scrum just after the ref says "set"? Sounds like a count?
    All teams will have different calls. Its all about the timing of the hit and getting that right. It will be a command just to help with timing and helping attempt to win possession


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    #228
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    When does a moving maul become a ruck? or can it?

    Was confused in Leinster Zebre when what appeared to be a maul fell or was collapsed and opponent on the 'wrong /offside' side of the new ruck picked the ball and ran. Neither ref or linesman flagged it although it was clearly in their sight.


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    #229
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Steve wrote: »
    When does a moving maul become a ruck? or can it?

    Was confused in Leinster Zebre when what appeared to be a maul fell or was collapsed and opponent on the 'wrong /offside' side of the new ruck picked the ball and ran. Neither ref or linesman flagged it although it was clearly in their sight.
    A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck


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    #230
    shrapnel222
    Registered Users Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭shrapnel222


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck

    worth adding that the ball needs to come out cleanly and immediately.


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    #231
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I was sure I read somewhere that the lineout their did not need to be completely straight just as long as it was in the corridor after travelling five metres but I can't find it again.

    Completely straight is sometimes not easy to achieve due to for example wind. Especially at amateur level most refs would be quite happy to see a "contestable" ball thrown as in the non throwing team had a reasonable chance to win the ball. When I referee a game for example and the hooker throws a crooked line out ball to his team's disadvantage I would play advantage.


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    #232
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,337 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep




    Interesting one there, I didn't know that you had to be in control of the ball to have it be in touch, but just touching it doesn't count.


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    #233
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,784 ✭✭✭✭phog


    This might be of some interest - a look at the new laws


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    #234
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i also enjoyed reading this from the same site

    https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2016/03/20/the-scrum-through-the-decades/


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    #235
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?


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    #236
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,243 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    dregin wrote: »
    JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?

    I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

    Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure


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    #237
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

    Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure

    He asked the TMO to look at it and the TMO said it was fine. Play went on and a few minutes later the stadium screen was showing the replay in slow motion - that was when he asked to see it himself. It allows the local production company to influence the ref.


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    #238
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    dregin wrote: »
    JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?
    They are allowed use the big screens to aid their decisions
    Akrasia wrote: »
    I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

    Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure
    It is by regs. Refs can use big screen to decide themselves or go to TMO for their decision


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    #239
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    Grand. Cheers.


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    #240
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck

    A maul can never become a ruck. You're thinking of a collapsed maul which is refereed differently. Opposition players are not obliged to roll away for instance.


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    #241
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    phog wrote: »
    This might be of some interest - a look at the new laws

    The maul ones are straightforward enough. The ruck ones will be interesting seeing as the human torpedo clearout has become de rigueur at most levels of the game now.


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