Enforcing a determination order

Owlet · 18-08-2018 12:06pm #1

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

3DataModem · 18-08-2018 12:10pm

I feel for you OP. My advice is to spend the money with a solicitor to reduce stress and hassle. Leave it to the professionals.

(Off topic; this is why people are going to Airbnb and short-term no-rights letting.)

splinter65 · 18-08-2018 12:31pm

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Owlet · 18-08-2018 12:43pm

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

Owlet · 18-08-2018 12:43pm

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

handlemaster · 18-08-2018 1:56pm

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

The RTB are all for the tenant. So much so they love to publise there cases against landlords. I have yet to see them chase à tenant for unpaid rent

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 6:08pm

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

OP, I suggest you to read these two links in detail, in particular the second one:
https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/enforcement-of-orders/faqs
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_Guide_to_taking_Enforcement_Proceedings_A5_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
Now, I have the gut feeling that your tenant is a social welfare one (no sane working person would leave 7k of rent arrears since the long term consequences would be very detrimental for such person), please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Seth Brundle · 18-08-2018 6:12pm

GGTrek wrote: »

please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Assuming it's a legal option, then why not post the info for everyone?

splinter65 · 18-08-2018 6:14pm

Owlet wrote: »

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

https://www.gov.uk/evicting-tenants/eviction-notices-and-bailiffs

This is what happens in the UK I don’t understand why we have no equivalent here

Owlet · 18-08-2018 6:14pm

Thanks. The tenant was not social welfare when he first took the rental 6 years ago but he lost his job earlier this year. We have tried to be good landlords and offered him many solutions, none of which he has taken. I have no idea what his game is.

I understand the enforcement process, thanks, what I don't know is what the value added is of pursuing it privately vs going the RTB route. The RTB provide no service targets e.g. it will take us one week to decide if we will support your application for enforcement. It's all very open ended and I have no idea how long the process might take at the district court. Any idea?

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 6:19pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Assuming it's a legal option, then why not post the info for everyone?

Assuming I do not provide private contacts on a public forum!

Turnipman · 18-08-2018 6:19pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Because of our history.

The word "eviction" appears to scare the crap out of TDs and judges alike.

Whereas unfortunately the words "shameless parasites ripping off decent, law abiding landlords"" just don't have the same impact.

Disclaimer: I am not a landlord.

Irrelevant aside: One of my siblings is, and had an apartment completely destroyed by tenants - from China.

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 6:24pm

Owlet wrote: »

Thanks. The tenant was not social welfare when he first took the rental 6 years ago but he lost his job earlier this year. We have tried to be good landlords and offered him many solutions, none of which he has taken. I have no idea what his game is.

I understand the enforcement process, thanks, what I don't know is what the value added is of pursuing it privately vs going the RTB route. The RTB provide no service targets e.g. it will take us one week to decide if we will support your application for enforcement. It's all very open ended and I have no idea how long the process might take at the district court. Any idea?

It depends where your property is located. In Dublin District Courts a minimum of 3 to 4 months + waiting time for sheriff. If you wait for RTB you can add a few months. RTB has no service targets because their budget for enforcement is limited and they have to prioritize the cases (i.e. a lottery for you!).

Owlet · 18-08-2018 6:37pm

Wow!!!! That is a long time. Definitely worth going down the private route then. We wanted to buy a family home this year.... looks like we will be putting it off until next year. Thanks for the info on the wait times. It's amazing how everything is skewed in favour of the tenant.

Owlet · 18-08-2018 6:38pm

PS Yes, the property is in Dublin.

Graces7 · 18-08-2018 7:39pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

It takes many months and court processes before that stage is reached. ie county court etc.

No one shouting? You need to watch a few more episodes. One Chinese man goes totally bats and many times they have to call the police in to defend them. when they go to evict travellers, small girls throw rocks and smash their windows

then there was the man who smashed his car up to avoid it being repossessed...

the grass may seem greener but...

DubCount · 19-08-2018 8:36am

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Its really an issue of responsibility for homelessness.

In the UK, the system recognises the responsibility for housing people who cant/wont pay, rests with the local authority. 3 months arrears is automatic grounds for eviction. There is no RTB, so the LL applies direct to the County Court, where judges are not afraid of eviction orders (which are enforceable without needing other legal steps). There is an option for the LL to upgrade to a High Court writ. The tenant is evicted, the LL regains the property to sell/let to someone else. The local authority houses the evicted tenant.

In Ireland, official Ireland does not want to deal with homelessness. So local authorities, the RTB, the courts, Homeless charities and the entire system is set up to leave the problem with the LL for as long as possible. While the problem rests with the LL, official Ireland does not own the problem. The overholding and non-paying tenant has a roof over their head and official Ireland is not picking up the cheque.

The Irish approach to legitimate eviction is killing the rental market here.

OP. Get a solicitor to manage the process for you. Its money well spent and will save you money in the long term. Maybe try contacting you bank to see if you can get a reduction in mortgage payments while the slow wheels of justice turn. Know that after kicking the can down the road for way too long, your tenants will eventually be evicted.

splinter65 · 19-08-2018 9:21am

I wouldn’t be a landlord for all the tea in China . It’s s lose lose situation and I can’t imagine a worse “get rich quick” plan then letting a property.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 9:33am

Thanks all. I think a privately employed solicitor is the only option.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 9:42am

I was in a very similar position last year.
Tenant lost job, got rent allowance, kept it, didn't pay me etc.
Went through the correct process to get him out.
Prtb ruled in my favour.
Tenant ignored determination order and stayed in the property.
Had to get a solicitor and barrister to go through eviction process.
Depending where you live, there are some many cases like this, you may be waiting for a court date for 3- 6 months, while all the time the tenant is inside the property you own, it's sickening.
Got to court eventually. Judge ruled in my favour obviously. Gave him 7 days to clear out, he was gone in 6 days and left a house behind that needed professional deep cleaning.
If he hadn't moved, because it's a court order and not a sissy prtb order, after those 7 days the solicitor would then have to go to sheriff, where apparently within a week or two, along with the gardai, and a locksmith, the tenant can be physically evicted.
It took 12 months to get my tenant out, €15k out of pocket.
It was the most stressful time in my life. My husband had a breakdown.
Prtb were are useful as a chocolate teapot. Threshold tell them to withhold as it's free accommodation for a long time as they know the courts are full.
There's no one there to support a landlord.
You have my sympathies.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 9:48am

Wow, thanks Airy Fairy. It's good to know what to expect, even though it makes me feel a bit ill. Had the cases moved to the district court by then (as now) or was it all still handled by the circuit court? Very unimpressed by the RTB so far.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 10:01am

Owlet wrote: »

Wow, thanks Airy Fairy. It's good to know what to expect, even though it makes me feel a bit ill. Had the cases moved to the district court by then (as now) or was it all still handled by the circuit court? Very unimpressed by the RTB so far.

Handled by District court.
The tenant actually had the cheek to turn up and tell the judge that while he was in the property the value had gone up so it was a plus for me as an owner, that I could sell the property at a higher price in December than I could have had in the January before!! He felt he did me s favour.
The judge actually apologised to me, saying I'd probably never see the money owed to me being repaid.
It's frustrating that someone can live for free in your own property.
The tenant left thousands worth of bills behind, ESB, gas, parking fines etc.
You will get the tenant out, but it will cost, but do it all above board, with proper legal representation.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 10:05am

Ah Jaysus! That's unreal. Assume the unpaid bills were not your problem though?

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 10:08am

Owlet wrote: »

Ah Jaysus! That's unreal. Assume the unpaid bills were not your problem though?

No, not my problem. Just gave the readings to provider. Had to prove I owned the property though with a solicitor letter so the provider knew the tenant was only a tenant if you get me.
You couldn't make it up.

Squatter · 19-08-2018 10:10am

airy fairy wrote: »

The taxpayer-funded PRTB were as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The State-funded "charity" Threshold tell them to withhold as it's free accommodation for a long time as they know the courts are full.

I fleshed out your comments above.

To overseas readers it probably appears bizzare to see the State part-funding a "charity" that appears both to advocate and to encourage illegal behaviour by tenants. But in the Ireland of the gobsh1te politician, it's accepted as completely normal. :mad:

Owlet · 19-08-2018 10:20am

Beyond depressed now. :-(

Owlet · 19-08-2018 10:25am

Sorry, one more question, do you know what happens if the tenant starts earning again down the line? e.g. if they get a job in two years would they be required to start paying you back? Thanks in advance.

LotharIngum · 19-08-2018 10:26am

I have two friends now who have had very similar experience to the OP.

Both had previously good tenants who turned bad on the advice of housing charities when they were asked to leave.

Our tenants part 4 is up and we have them under notice to leave so it, together with the below market rent we can only charge, has been enough to make us decide to sell up and get out of the property rental business. I just hope our tenants don't go to threshold or it will cost us a fortune even though we have done it all by the book.

We didn't even want to get out of property as we are diversified well.
But Risk / Reward is just not working out for landlords.

Sorry for your trouble OP

Squatter · 19-08-2018 10:28am

Owlet wrote: »

Beyond depressed now. :-(

Don't blame you.

Why not write to Jospeha Madigan?

Her late father, Paddy "mad dog" Madigan was a great defender of landlords' rights, long before FG/FF decided that shafting landlords in favourite of tenants was a surefire vote winner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/politician-and-keen-litigator-on-behalf-of-property-owners-1.1774215

April 73 · 19-08-2018 11:04am

For once I wish one of the national papers would do a big spread on what happens to legitimate landlords who have the misfortune to have tenants like this.
In this one thread alone there are enough horror stories to do that article.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 11:30am

Owlet wrote: »

Sorry, one more question, do you know what happens if the tenant starts earning again down the line? e.g. if they get a job in two years would they be required to start paying you back? Thanks in advance.

Turns out my tenant had a business running out of my property.
Has since moved county.
In the hands of a solicitor now, I can eventually get something from the tenant, apparently even it's from social welfare, but that could be as little as €5 per week. But in terms of the principle of it, I want the tenant to see this deduction in the social or payslip so onwards I go to persue it, it could take another year though.

Enforcing a determination order

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