Enforcing a determination order

Owlet · 18-08-2018 11:06am #1

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

3DataModem · 18-08-2018 11:10am

I feel for you OP. My advice is to spend the money with a solicitor to reduce stress and hassle. Leave it to the professionals.

(Off topic; this is why people are going to Airbnb and short-term no-rights letting.)

splinter65 · 18-08-2018 11:31am

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Owlet · 18-08-2018 11:43am

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

Owlet · 18-08-2018 11:43am

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

handlemaster · 18-08-2018 12:56pm

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

The RTB are all for the tenant. So much so they love to publise there cases against landlords. I have yet to see them chase à tenant for unpaid rent

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 5:08pm

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

OP, I suggest you to read these two links in detail, in particular the second one:
https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/enforcement-of-orders/faqs
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_Guide_to_taking_Enforcement_Proceedings_A5_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
Now, I have the gut feeling that your tenant is a social welfare one (no sane working person would leave 7k of rent arrears since the long term consequences would be very detrimental for such person), please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Seth Brundle · 18-08-2018 5:12pm

GGTrek wrote: »

please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Assuming it's a legal option, then why not post the info for everyone?

splinter65 · 18-08-2018 5:14pm

Owlet wrote: »

I've been meaning to watch that programme. I suppose eventually the sherriff will get involved here and something similar will happen, it's just an incredibly protracted process to get to that point unfortunately. :-(

https://www.gov.uk/evicting-tenants/eviction-notices-and-bailiffs

This is what happens in the UK I don’t understand why we have no equivalent here

Owlet · 18-08-2018 5:14pm

Thanks. The tenant was not social welfare when he first took the rental 6 years ago but he lost his job earlier this year. We have tried to be good landlords and offered him many solutions, none of which he has taken. I have no idea what his game is.

I understand the enforcement process, thanks, what I don't know is what the value added is of pursuing it privately vs going the RTB route. The RTB provide no service targets e.g. it will take us one week to decide if we will support your application for enforcement. It's all very open ended and I have no idea how long the process might take at the district court. Any idea?

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 5:19pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

please PM me and I shall give you some practical information on how to deal with such situation.

Assuming it's a legal option, then why not post the info for everyone?

Assuming I do not provide private contacts on a public forum!

Turnipman · 18-08-2018 5:19pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Because of our history.

The word "eviction" appears to scare the crap out of TDs and judges alike.

Whereas unfortunately the words "shameless parasites ripping off decent, law abiding landlords"" just don't have the same impact.

Disclaimer: I am not a landlord.

Irrelevant aside: One of my siblings is, and had an apartment completely destroyed by tenants - from China.

GGTrek · 18-08-2018 5:24pm

Owlet wrote: »

Thanks. The tenant was not social welfare when he first took the rental 6 years ago but he lost his job earlier this year. We have tried to be good landlords and offered him many solutions, none of which he has taken. I have no idea what his game is.

I understand the enforcement process, thanks, what I don't know is what the value added is of pursuing it privately vs going the RTB route. The RTB provide no service targets e.g. it will take us one week to decide if we will support your application for enforcement. It's all very open ended and I have no idea how long the process might take at the district court. Any idea?

It depends where your property is located. In Dublin District Courts a minimum of 3 to 4 months + waiting time for sheriff. If you wait for RTB you can add a few months. RTB has no service targets because their budget for enforcement is limited and they have to prioritize the cases (i.e. a lottery for you!).

Owlet · 18-08-2018 5:37pm

Wow!!!! That is a long time. Definitely worth going down the private route then. We wanted to buy a family home this year.... looks like we will be putting it off until next year. Thanks for the info on the wait times. It's amazing how everything is skewed in favour of the tenant.

Owlet · 18-08-2018 5:38pm

PS Yes, the property is in Dublin.

Graces7 · 18-08-2018 6:39pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

It takes many months and court processes before that stage is reached. ie county court etc.

No one shouting? You need to watch a few more episodes. One Chinese man goes totally bats and many times they have to call the police in to defend them. when they go to evict travellers, small girls throw rocks and smash their windows

then there was the man who smashed his car up to avoid it being repossessed...

the grass may seem greener but...

DubCount · 19-08-2018 7:36am

splinter65 wrote: »

Watching “Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” the other night and an extremely professional pair of privately hired high court enforcers were enforcing a high court writ (UK) on a family who had paid no rent for over a year.
They literally just knocked on the door walked in showed them the writ and gave them 1 hour to pack their stuff while they waited. It was all over with nothing being smashed or anyone shouting.
Why is this not happening here?

Its really an issue of responsibility for homelessness.

In the UK, the system recognises the responsibility for housing people who cant/wont pay, rests with the local authority. 3 months arrears is automatic grounds for eviction. There is no RTB, so the LL applies direct to the County Court, where judges are not afraid of eviction orders (which are enforceable without needing other legal steps). There is an option for the LL to upgrade to a High Court writ. The tenant is evicted, the LL regains the property to sell/let to someone else. The local authority houses the evicted tenant.

In Ireland, official Ireland does not want to deal with homelessness. So local authorities, the RTB, the courts, Homeless charities and the entire system is set up to leave the problem with the LL for as long as possible. While the problem rests with the LL, official Ireland does not own the problem. The overholding and non-paying tenant has a roof over their head and official Ireland is not picking up the cheque.

The Irish approach to legitimate eviction is killing the rental market here.

OP. Get a solicitor to manage the process for you. Its money well spent and will save you money in the long term. Maybe try contacting you bank to see if you can get a reduction in mortgage payments while the slow wheels of justice turn. Know that after kicking the can down the road for way too long, your tenants will eventually be evicted.

splinter65 · 19-08-2018 8:21am

I wouldn’t be a landlord for all the tea in China . It’s s lose lose situation and I can’t imagine a worse “get rich quick” plan then letting a property.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 8:33am

Thanks all. I think a privately employed solicitor is the only option.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 8:42am

I was in a very similar position last year.
Tenant lost job, got rent allowance, kept it, didn't pay me etc.
Went through the correct process to get him out.
Prtb ruled in my favour.
Tenant ignored determination order and stayed in the property.
Had to get a solicitor and barrister to go through eviction process.
Depending where you live, there are some many cases like this, you may be waiting for a court date for 3- 6 months, while all the time the tenant is inside the property you own, it's sickening.
Got to court eventually. Judge ruled in my favour obviously. Gave him 7 days to clear out, he was gone in 6 days and left a house behind that needed professional deep cleaning.
If he hadn't moved, because it's a court order and not a sissy prtb order, after those 7 days the solicitor would then have to go to sheriff, where apparently within a week or two, along with the gardai, and a locksmith, the tenant can be physically evicted.
It took 12 months to get my tenant out, €15k out of pocket.
It was the most stressful time in my life. My husband had a breakdown.
Prtb were are useful as a chocolate teapot. Threshold tell them to withhold as it's free accommodation for a long time as they know the courts are full.
There's no one there to support a landlord.
You have my sympathies.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 8:48am

Wow, thanks Airy Fairy. It's good to know what to expect, even though it makes me feel a bit ill. Had the cases moved to the district court by then (as now) or was it all still handled by the circuit court? Very unimpressed by the RTB so far.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 9:01am

Owlet wrote: »

Wow, thanks Airy Fairy. It's good to know what to expect, even though it makes me feel a bit ill. Had the cases moved to the district court by then (as now) or was it all still handled by the circuit court? Very unimpressed by the RTB so far.

Handled by District court.
The tenant actually had the cheek to turn up and tell the judge that while he was in the property the value had gone up so it was a plus for me as an owner, that I could sell the property at a higher price in December than I could have had in the January before!! He felt he did me s favour.
The judge actually apologised to me, saying I'd probably never see the money owed to me being repaid.
It's frustrating that someone can live for free in your own property.
The tenant left thousands worth of bills behind, ESB, gas, parking fines etc.
You will get the tenant out, but it will cost, but do it all above board, with proper legal representation.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 9:05am

Ah Jaysus! That's unreal. Assume the unpaid bills were not your problem though?

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 9:08am

Owlet wrote: »

Ah Jaysus! That's unreal. Assume the unpaid bills were not your problem though?

No, not my problem. Just gave the readings to provider. Had to prove I owned the property though with a solicitor letter so the provider knew the tenant was only a tenant if you get me.
You couldn't make it up.

Squatter · 19-08-2018 9:10am

airy fairy wrote: »

The taxpayer-funded PRTB were as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The State-funded "charity" Threshold tell them to withhold as it's free accommodation for a long time as they know the courts are full.

I fleshed out your comments above.

To overseas readers it probably appears bizzare to see the State part-funding a "charity" that appears both to advocate and to encourage illegal behaviour by tenants. But in the Ireland of the gobsh1te politician, it's accepted as completely normal. :mad:

Owlet · 19-08-2018 9:20am

Beyond depressed now. :-(

Owlet · 19-08-2018 9:25am

Sorry, one more question, do you know what happens if the tenant starts earning again down the line? e.g. if they get a job in two years would they be required to start paying you back? Thanks in advance.

LotharIngum · 19-08-2018 9:26am

I have two friends now who have had very similar experience to the OP.

Both had previously good tenants who turned bad on the advice of housing charities when they were asked to leave.

Our tenants part 4 is up and we have them under notice to leave so it, together with the below market rent we can only charge, has been enough to make us decide to sell up and get out of the property rental business. I just hope our tenants don't go to threshold or it will cost us a fortune even though we have done it all by the book.

We didn't even want to get out of property as we are diversified well.
But Risk / Reward is just not working out for landlords.

Sorry for your trouble OP

Squatter · 19-08-2018 9:28am

Owlet wrote: »

Beyond depressed now. :-(

Don't blame you.

Why not write to Jospeha Madigan?

Her late father, Paddy "mad dog" Madigan was a great defender of landlords' rights, long before FG/FF decided that shafting landlords in favourite of tenants was a surefire vote winner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/politician-and-keen-litigator-on-behalf-of-property-owners-1.1774215

April 73 · 19-08-2018 10:04am

For once I wish one of the national papers would do a big spread on what happens to legitimate landlords who have the misfortune to have tenants like this.
In this one thread alone there are enough horror stories to do that article.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 10:30am

Owlet wrote: »

Sorry, one more question, do you know what happens if the tenant starts earning again down the line? e.g. if they get a job in two years would they be required to start paying you back? Thanks in advance.

Turns out my tenant had a business running out of my property.
Has since moved county.
In the hands of a solicitor now, I can eventually get something from the tenant, apparently even it's from social welfare, but that could be as little as €5 per week. But in terms of the principle of it, I want the tenant to see this deduction in the social or payslip so onwards I go to persue it, it could take another year though.

picturehangup · 19-08-2018 10:43am

Just reading this thread, and I am positively horrified by the OP's experience. Hope things are better for you.
For this year my family and I are both tenant and LL.

I am letting out my house for a year, as I have had to relocate for a year, to save daughter from a long commute to school.
She is doing her LC, and we have yet to secure tenants, going through an auctioneer. Just hope we get the right ones.

I cannot understand why it so difficult to evict these people, as they are clearly taking the proverbial.

We are in turn tenants now, and I am terrified that we would even scuff the paint, and I do not know how someone cannot take good care of a property that is not theirs.The mind boggles.

Carlos Orange · 19-08-2018 11:00am

picturehangup wrote: »

I cannot understand why it so difficult to evict these people, as they are clearly taking the proverbial.

In Ireland you can just break into someones house , change the locks and it takes 6 months to get you out. Nothing would surprise me about how long it takes to evict someone who was at one stage a tenant.

http://www.thejournal.ie/squatter-phibsborough-ordered-to-leave-3309321-Mar2017/

Owlet · 19-08-2018 1:39pm

Airy Fairy - That's good to know. You are dead right to pursue it. We will not be letting this go either.

Why doesn't someone ring Threshold and pretend to be in a position like my tenant and record the advice they get, then send it to a journo? I would but can't for annoying reasons related to my job. Feel very strongly this who system needs reforming. I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything. We should be able to go straight to the sherriff now the determination order has lapsed.

Baby01032012 · 19-08-2018 2:05pm

Solicitor is the only way. RTB have limited resources in terms of time and money to pursue DOs through the courts.

They took for ever when I went through the whole sorry process. Despite tenant not turning up for the adjudication, as tenant appealed the adjudication order they still allowed them to appeal and go to a determination hearing. Which cost me another 3 months before that was heard. When tenant again didn’t turn up for the determination hearing they took another 2 months to issue their order.

RTB are not your friend. They are worse than the tenant.

I’m currently bringing a case to the circuit court against the letting agent who didn’t check references and put them in the property.

dudara · 19-08-2018 2:11pm

It is even possible for a landlord to take a civil case against Threshold for the losses that their advice has caused? I suppose there would have to be a strong element of proof.

splinter65 · 19-08-2018 2:36pm

Owlet wrote: »

Airy Fairy - That's good to know. You are dead right to pursue it. We will not be letting this go either.

Why doesn't someone ring Threshold and pretend to be in a position like my tenant and record the advice they get, then send it to a journo? I would but can't for annoying reasons related to my job. Feel very strongly this who system needs reforming. I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything. We should be able to go straight to the sherriff now the determination order has lapsed.

The advice Threshold give is not unlawful. And there are still some appalling landlords who have a special place reserved for them in hell who need to be reeled in.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 2:58pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The advice Threshold give is not unlawful. And there are still some appalling landlords who have a special place reserved for them in hell who need to be reeled in.

Bad landlords or not, it's still no excuse for threshold to advise someone to sit it out and by the time it'll get seen to in court they'd have a year free accommodation.
Bad landlords or not, it's still not an excuse to refuse to pay rental fees where one resides, be the landlord a millionaire or a landlord by necessity from negative equity during the collapse of financial Ireland.
I wasn't a bad landlord, I've always said I would only rent the property in a condition in which I'd like to see my kids in.
There needs to be an independent body for the soul purpose of landlords, like I believe the rtb is currently for tenants.

Owlet · 19-08-2018 3:13pm

Ditto. I've always been an exemplary landlord. I even used to work for a housing charity in a different country. (And we would never have given advice like Threshold.)

DubCount · 19-08-2018 4:16pm

I have never figured out why non-payment of rent is not treated as theft and the subject of a criminal charge. Maybe the treat of a criminal conviction might focus the minds of squatting tenants.

Eric Cartman · 19-08-2018 4:19pm

Owlet wrote: »

We have a tenant who is overholding following the RTB issuing a determination order in our favour as landlords.

The tenant owes us €7000 and we are quite stressed by the situation. We just want the house back in our possession so we can sell it and move on with our lives. We have given the tenant every opportunity to leave without retribution and even after the determination order was issued we offered to write off the owed rent if he vacated immediately. He did not take the offer.

We are now left wondering if it is better/quicker to ask the RTB to enforce the order or to hire a solicitor privately to do it? The RTB have been very slow to do everything so far so my heart sinks at the thought of relying them on now, but at the same time we could do without the cost of a solicitor. I'm not sure how much it would cost to enforce privately... maybe 2k???? Does anyone know if it is much quicker to enforce privately or is there not much in it?

Any thoughts on the best way to get it enforced Asap appreciated.

Thanks.

Ireland is hands down one of the worst countries to be a landlord in. We should have like some states do in the US where the cops attend with bailiffs who smash in the door and physically extract people after 90 days arrears. Thats literally the only solution for us now.

TheBoyConor · 19-08-2018 4:21pm

These situations boil my blood. The occasional bad tenant like this who has such a brazen neck to hold out like this.

What I'd love to do, even tho I know it would not yield rent not get the property back, is MOD NOTE: read the forum charter.

Del2005 · 19-08-2018 4:27pm

Owlet wrote: »

I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything.

They do a lot for tenants, landlord doesn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's they get thousands.

Eric Cartman · 19-08-2018 4:31pm

Owlet wrote: »

I don't see what the point of the RTB is if they can't actually do anything.

They advise tenants to contact services that tell them to overhold. They find paperwork landlords filled out incorrectly and use that fault to issue tenants thousands in compensation.
they tell landlords they can't remove tenants for months on end in arrears.

then they release reports basically calling landlords greedy and saying rent and deposit prices are too high.

airy fairy · 19-08-2018 5:42pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ireland is hands down one of the worst countries to be a landlord in. We should have like some states do in the US where the cops attend with bailiffs who smash in the door and physically extract people after 90 days arrears. Thats literally the only solution for us now.

If we had that situation in this country, rents would stagnate, properties would be put on the market for rent and the rental crisis that is, would deteriorate.
I cannot fathom how statistics fail to recognise that it's the situation where many landlords find ourselves in because of overholding etc is the reason there are no rental properties available.
I'm not saying for a moment to give the tenants less rights, but the current state of play let's a tenant basically take over someone else's property and the landlord has to fight and beg to take their house back in the event they want to sell or because the tenant has failed to pay rent.

the_syco · 19-08-2018 11:41pm

airy fairy wrote: »

If we had that situation in this country, rents would stagnate, properties would be put on the market for rent and the rental crisis that is, would deteriorate.

airy fairy wrote: »

I'm not saying for a moment to give the tenants less rights, but the current state of play let's a tenant basically take over someone else's property and the landlord has to fight and beg to take their house back in the event they want to sell or because the tenant has failed to pay rent.

Either there's a reason for people to move out when told to by the PTRB, or there isn't. Currently, there isn't.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 19-08-2018 11:55pm

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

dudara wrote: »

It is even possible for a landlord to take a civil case against Threshold for the losses that their advice has caused? I suppose there would have to be a strong element of proof.

utmbuilder · 20-08-2018 3:32am

look if the tennant didn't like the landlord or landlords and wanted a free ride he has gotten it

he needs to move on at this point it's gotten too far

Del2005 · 20-08-2018 7:17am

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

Like most things in the private rental sector when they have finally driven the private/accidental landlords out of the market the REiTs won't take the crap and they have the time and money to fight, but they won't till they control the market. Then we'll see what a few big corporations out to make maximum money for their shareholders/pensioners do to tenants, there'll be no keeping the rent the same for good tenants and if you don't pay it won't be 12 months or more to get you out.

tvjunki · 20-08-2018 7:38am

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

Many years ago I had a tenant wanting rent allowance and they were not entitled to it as they were on a work permit. The social welfare inspector told him to stay in the house until a property could be found. I went to the inspector and his response was if don't give him rent allowance someone else will. So it is not just threshold that suggests this.

LuckyLloyd · 20-08-2018 8:23am

These threads popping up are a recurring theme on the forum. Would an FAQ stickied thread be useful? There is an answer on how to proceed which is what I think people are looking for, not whiny political treatises on how awful Ireland is for the poor downtrodden landlords.

There's a discussion to be had on that and an answer too (significant expedition of the process at every step), but the constant recurring rigmarole on here isn't helping anyone and is frankly painful to read.

Enforcing a determination order

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