Destruction of heritage

pedroeibar1 · 25-01-2012 12:15pm

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - my father was born in Cork in 1904 - his dad was a clerk with the Cork Steam Packet Co.

Do you know of any books of Old Cork, or a 'then and now'?

I'd appreciate any information on the subject.

tac

Tac,
A really great read is 'Old World Colony' by Dickson. It deals with the period 1630 to 1830 in Cork and Munster, showing the development of economic and social life, also giving a very good overall image of what was going on in the country as a whole. It covers everything, from farming, shipping, industry, planters, etc. It's a bit of a tome at 700 pages or so, but about 200 of them are notes and sources (!).

The main shareholder of the Cork Steam Packet Co. about 1900 was the Leycester family. CSP owned several ships; its biggest passenger vessels were successively named “Innisfallen”; all were known to several generations of Irish emigrants. That shipping line eventually became part of B & I Line, before being nationalised and eventually becoming part of Irish Ferries.
Rs
P.

dubhthach · 25-01-2012 12:43pm

slowburner wrote: »

Against wolves for sure but against raiders too, almost certainly.

There's a reason Faol (wolf) often shows up as a component of first name. One only has to look at the Whelean/Phealans eg. Ó Faoláin (descendants of "little wolf")

Of course Edmund Spencer wrote that us Irish supposedly turned into Wolves at least once a year

Pope John 11 · 25-01-2012 1:15pm

http://archiseek.com/2011/1818-kilcoleman-abbey-milltown-co-kerry/

Demolished in 1977

tac foley · 25-01-2012 3:51pm

Cedrus - dubhthach and pedroeibar1 - many thanks for your kind help - very much appreciated. Yes, I was military - for almost 33 years.

So was my dad, for a short time. At age 17 or so he was arrested after taking part in the burning of a police barracks in Co Cork in 1920, and sentenced to 12 years hard labour. He was freed at the Truce, joined the FSA, and served as a driver. He used to tell me that he had at one time driven General Collins around Cork city in Sliabh na mBan. Back in 2001 a good-hearted friend let me sit in it while it was in the Curragh workshops - very emotional for me, as you might understand.

I've never been to Cork, but we are looking forward to it this year - might even meet up with a couple of half-brothers, too.

I'll be looking at everything you've sent me.

Thanks again.

tac

corktina · 26-01-2012 3:18pm

[QUOTE=. The minor ringfort still exists but the major one has been obliterated for a golf course.
It was excavated though; nothing of great interest was unearthed but still, could it not have been preserved in some way?

If it was properley excavated and recorded it HAS been preserved in some way.

Fuinseog · 26-01-2012 3:24pm

there are at least 20,000 ringforts in the country. many are not regarded at being significant and some are of the opinion that we have so many a few less will not make a difference. people want their roads built. The only reason why ringforts were not destroyed until now was their connection with the faerie.

slowburner · 26-01-2012 3:24pm

corktina wrote: »

If it was properley excavated and recorded it HAS been preserved in some way.

Quite right. Fair point.
My preference though, would be to have the ringfort rather than a few more bunkers and a green.

Fuinseog · 26-01-2012 3:29pm

slowburner wrote: »

Quite right. Fair point.
My preference though, would be to have the ringfort rather than a few more bunkers and a green.

rich folk need to play somewhere.

some people argued that the current recession only started when the powers that started to destroy Tara and other ancient monuments such as the graves of the Fianna. No money means no money for new roads that cut through a virgin landscape. Perhaps the punishment of the Gods for our greed?

dubhthach · 26-01-2012 3:44pm

Fuinseog wrote: »

rich folk need to play somewhere.

some people argued that the current recession only started when the powers that started to destroy Tara and other ancient monuments such as the graves of the Fianna. No money means no money for new roads that cut through a virgin landscape. Perhaps the punishment of the Gods for our greed?

No doubt there's an annex to both "Baile Chuinn Chétchathaig" and "Baile In Scáil" (Baile == Buile ; in == an) that predicts that very event.

Personally I think if settlements sites are going to be destroyed (particulary when they have upstanding earthworks) then there needs to be an excavation first.

Cedrus · 26-01-2012 4:03pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Personally I think if settlements sites are going to be destroyed (particulary when they have upstanding earthworks) then there needs to be an excavation first.

There needs to be a greater understanding of what is worth preserving and what is not and this can really only be done by extensive excavation and categorisation of sites. There is no doubt that some of the ring forts are of interest but some were simple farmsteads and some only cattle pens, there is nothing to excavate! In a thousand years will our descendants be agonising over the significance of barna sheds?
Until there is a way of classifying them they all should be left alone or excavated and recorded.

slowburner · 26-01-2012 8:20pm

Cedrus wrote: »

There needs to be a greater understanding of what is worth preserving and what is not and this can really only be done by extensive excavation and categorisation of sites. There is no doubt that some of the ring forts are of interest but some were simple farmsteads and some only cattle pens, there is nothing to excavate! In a thousand years will our descendants be agonising over the significance of barna sheds?
Until there is a way of classifying them they all should be left alone or excavated and recorded.

But who is to say what mysteries or answers might lie unknown in the most humble of farmsteads?
There's the rub - you can't say it's worth preserving until you have destroyed it by excavating it.
Archaeology's mantra is : 'excavation is destruction'.
Excavations tend to be carried out only when there is an imminent threat to a site.

You've got to remember too, that someone has to pay for the excavation.
The vast majority of excavations in recent years were as a consequence of, and funded by, property development.
And we know where that got us.
Currently, unemployment amongst archaeologists is around 85%.

So any ideal of a classification of the various lumps, bumps and suspicious hummocks which dot our landscape, is but a pipe dream.
The next best thing (some would say the best thing) is to leave them undisturbed.

ejmaztec · 02-03-2012 5:40pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't believe for a minute that this guy didn't realise the significance of what was on his land.

Are there any other notable cases of this kind of carry-on across the country?

http://www.kerryman.ie/news/farmer-avoids-jail-for-damage-to-ringfort-2992062.html

Nailed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/omahonyj.html

A 64-year-old farmer has been fined €25,000 at the Circuit Criminal Court in Tralee for destroying a 1,000-year-old ring fort which was a protected national monument.
In one of the first prosecutions of its kind to come before the courts, John O'Mahony pleaded guilty to carrying out work on the fort on his farm at Causeway in Co Kerry in February 2008, without notifying the National Monuments Service in advance.
Mr O'Mahony farms around 40 acres at Clashmealcon near Causeway in north Kerry.
A ring fort and series of souterrains or underground tunnels - which are thought to have been constructed over 1,000 years ago - were on the lands, and these are protected national monuments of historical significance.
In February 2008, Mr O'Mahony hired workers to demolish the majority of the ring fort.
The court was told that the material was used to fill in a pond which Mr O'Mahony believed was dangerous. Most of the ring fort was destroyed by heavy machinery.
The court was told Mr O'Mahony had not sought permission from the National Monuments Service of the Department of Arts, Heritage & the Gaeltacht and restoration of the fort was not possible.
Mr O'Mahony knew of the existence of the ring fort, because he had previously objected to a planning application there on the grounds that the land contained "an historical ring fort".
He had only bought the lands two months before work on the ring fort was carried out.
His barrister, John O'Sullivan, said Mr O'Mahony apologised. He said his client did not know he had to seek permission for the work and did not understand the implications.
Judge Carroll Moran said ownership of property is a right, but this right was not "unfettered" and was qualified by the fact that property was held in trust for the culture of the country.
At a previous hearing he warned that "a marker" would have to be put down when it came to imposing sentence.
The maximum penalty which Mr O'Mahony faced was five years in prison and/or a fine of €50,000.

slowburner · 02-03-2012 7:36pm

Good news indeed.
The man knew full well what he was doing, and was pointedly giving our national heritage two fingers.
Hopefully, others will treat national monuments with greater respect from now on.

Maudi · 02-03-2012 7:54pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't believe for a minute that this guy didn't realise the significance of what was on his land.

Are there any other notable cases of this kind of carry-on across the country?

http://www.kerryman.ie/news/farmer-avoids-jail-for-damage-to-ringfort-2992062.html

Nailed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/omahonyj.html

A 64-year-old farmer has been fined €25,000 at the Circuit Criminal Court in Tralee for destroying a 1,000-year-old ring fort which was a protected national monument.
In one of the first prosecutions of its kind to come before the courts, John O'Mahony pleaded guilty to carrying out work on the fort on his farm at Causeway in Co Kerry in February 2008, without notifying the National Monuments Service in advance.
Mr O'Mahony farms around 40 acres at Clashmealcon near Causeway in north Kerry.
A ring fort and series of souterrains or underground tunnels - which are thought to have been constructed over 1,000 years ago - were on the lands, and these are protected national monuments of historical significance.
In February 2008, Mr O'Mahony hired workers to demolish the majority of the ring fort.
The court was told that the material was used to fill in a pond which Mr O'Mahony believed was dangerous. Most of the ring fort was destroyed by heavy machinery.
The court was told Mr O'Mahony had not sought permission from the National Monuments Service of the Department of Arts, Heritage & the Gaeltacht and restoration of the fort was not possible.
Mr O'Mahony knew of the existence of the ring fort, because he had previously objected to a planning application there on the grounds that the land contained "an historical ring fort".
He had only bought the lands two months before work on the ring fort was carried out.
His barrister, John O'Sullivan, said Mr O'Mahony apologised. He said his client did not know he had to seek permission for the work and did not understand the implications.
Judge Carroll Moran said ownership of property is a right, but this right was not "unfettered" and was qualified by the fact that property was held in trust for the culture of the country.
At a previous hearing he warned that "a marker" would have to be put down when it came to imposing sentence.
The maximum penalty which Mr O'Mahony faced was five years in prison and/or a fine of €50,000.

should have been the full 50g fine!

Allyall · 03-03-2012 1:28pm

for destroying a 1,000-year-old ring fort which was a protected national monument.

to fill in a pond.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Mr O'Mahony knew of the existence of the ring fort, because he had previously objected to a planning application there, on the grounds that the land contained "an historical ring fort".

He had only bought the lands two months before.

The maximum penalty which Mr O'Mahony faced was five years in prison and/or a fine of €50,000.

He should have got a 1 year sentence with that.. :mad::mad:

Bricriu · 03-03-2012 3:32pm

The state set the tone for this sort of desecration when it ran a motorway through the Tara site. If I found an item in a bog that should be in our National Museum, I wouldn't even think of giving it to the state. I'd give it too a museum abroad, one that respects such things.

The OPW is pathetic at providing weatherproof textual info at our national monuments. In most cases, they don't even have a sign bearing the name of a fort, for instance.

Another problem for the lack of respect for our national treasures is that we have a huge myth in this country that we are obsessed with our history. We're not! In fact, most Irish people know very little about our history. Talk to people about politics, and you find out very soon they haven't a clue about our history.

Fuinseog · 03-03-2012 8:59pm

Bricriu wrote: »

The state set the tone for this sort of desecration when it ran a motorway through the Tara site. If I found an item in a bog that should be in our National Museum, I wouldn't even think of giving it to the state. I'd give it too a museum abroad, one that respects such things.

The OPW is pathetic at providing weatherproof textual info at our national monuments. In most cases, they don't even have a sign bearing the name of a fort, for instance.

Another problem for the lack of respect for our national treasures is that we have a huge myth in this country that we are obsessed with our history. We're not! In fact, most Irish people know very little about our history. Talk to people about politics, and you find out very soon they haven't a clue about our history.

brilliant idea. Give it to the British museum, which already has several artefacts 'borrowed' from this country as well as half the world. better still sell it abroad.

I have travelled all over the country and have never fond a problem with their signage. to man all of this sites costs a hack of a lot of money and some of them are not that well frequented by visitors.

slowburner · 03-03-2012 11:17pm

Bricriu wrote: »

The state set the tone for this sort of desecration when it ran a motorway through the Tara site. If I found an item in a bog that should be in our National Museum, I wouldn't even think of giving it to the state. I'd give it too a museum abroad, one that respects such things.

The OPW is pathetic at providing weatherproof textual info at our national monuments. In most cases, they don't even have a sign bearing the name of a fort, for instance.

Another problem for the lack of respect for our national treasures is that we have a huge myth in this country that we are obsessed with our history. We're not! In fact, most Irish people know very little about our history. Talk to people about politics, and you find out very soon they haven't a clue about our history.

I agree with some of what you say about the lack of information on signage.
On the other hand, I like the fact that most of our monuments are 'just there', like they always were.
I shiver to think of our national monuments surrounded by interpretative centres and the like.
The conclusion is invariably the tourist shop.
There is also the risk that unmanned monuments would be vulnerable to treasure hunters - that is part of the thinking behind the absence of signage at most sites.
Quite simply, the funding is just not there to man every monument, or even a few of them.

The National Museum did not run a motorway through Tara.
There is no reason to think that the museum cannot, or would not treat any finds with the utmost respect and with complete professionalism.

To equate road construction and planning with the dedication of those charged with care of our heritage is disingenuous, to say the least.

Maudi · 10-03-2012 10:51pm

Maudi wrote: »

ejmaztec wrote: »

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't believe for a minute that this guy didn't realise the significance of what was on his land.

Are there any other notable cases of this kind of carry-on across the country?

http://www.kerryman.ie/news/farmer-avoids-jail-for-damage-to-ringfort-2992062.html

Nailed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/omahonyj.html

A 64-year-old farmer has been fined €25,000 at the Circuit Criminal Court in Tralee for destroying a 1,000-year-old ring fort which was a protected national monument.
In one of the first prosecutions of its kind to come before the courts, John O'Mahony pleaded guilty to carrying out work on the fort on his farm at Causeway in Co Kerry in February 2008, without notifying the National Monuments Service in advance.
Mr O'Mahony farms around 40 acres at Clashmealcon near Causeway in north Kerry.
A ring fort and series of souterrains or underground tunnels - which are thought to have been constructed over 1,000 years ago - were on the lands, and these are protected national monuments of historical significance.
In February 2008, Mr O'Mahony hired workers to demolish the majority of the ring fort.
The court was told that the material was used to fill in a pond which Mr O'Mahony believed was dangerous. Most of the ring fort was destroyed by heavy machinery.
The court was told Mr O'Mahony had not sought permission from the National Monuments Service of the Department of Arts, Heritage & the Gaeltacht and restoration of the fort was not possible.
Mr O'Mahony knew of the existence of the ring fort, because he had previously objected to a planning application there on the grounds that the land contained "an historical ring fort".
He had only bought the lands two months before work on the ring fort was carried out.
His barrister, John O'Sullivan, said Mr O'Mahony apologised. He said his client did not know he had to seek permission for the work and did not understand the implications.
Judge Carroll Moran said ownership of property is a right, but this right was not "unfettered" and was qualified by the fact that property was held in trust for the culture of the country.
At a previous hearing he warned that "a marker" would have to be put down when it came to imposing sentence.
The maximum penalty which Mr O'Mahony faced was five years in prison and/or a fine of €50,000.

should have been the full 50g fine!

i took a visit up to fasssroe castle today it was built in 1536 and although its mostly in ruins now its still impressive and part of our heritage..the only thing is its been used as a dumping ground by god knows who..its surrounded on all sides by v expensive looking houses..nice to see bray council looking after our heritage tho...im sure any tourists will be really impressed

raher1 · 06-05-2017 9:30pm

does any one know where the stone for the house went?, i hear a church in north galway an area called Annaghdown

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Coole House :mad:

More immediate concerns my arse. :mad:

Destruction of heritage

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