Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof · 10-12-2019 4:09pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's a pity since the Munster move Carbery hasn't had a full run at a season. He was playing great v Italy in warm up's.....

Byrne lack of caps as I might have mentioned before baffles me....but for whatever reason the Ireland management team dont rate him. I don't see that changing with Farrell in charge.

Interestingly, Carbery had very similar minutes to Byrne last season, even with injury. Carbery played 990 minutes for Munster. Ross Byrne player 1131 for Leinster. Add in their Ireland minutes and it's 1120 vs 1151. (I was surprised to see it so close tbh).

Their kicking stats for last season are quite different tho:

Serbian wrote: »

Objectively, Ross Byrne's place kicking is not top notch. It's acceptable. He kicked a pressure kick against Ulster last season which in fairness was good, but I'd consider his place kicking another area of weakness for him.

His success rate of 73% last season is the worst of all players who regularly take kicks at Irish provinces. For comparison Carbery kicked at 88% last season, Sexton at 85%, Bill Johnston at 85%, Carty at 80%, JJ Hanrahan 79%, and Cooney at 78%.

That stat doesn't account for difficulty of kick / angle etc tho, so I don't know how much can be read into it. (Byrne doesn't strike me as a particularly poor kicker at all tbh, but I was surprised this stat was so comparatively low).

Dubinusa · 10-12-2019 4:36pm

I haven't seen Carberry being very good. His cap a couple of years back against the U.S, he was poor. He was poor several games I watched him for Munster also. One moment of brilliance against Scotland and a terrible interception. I'm not saying R.B is better or a better choice, obviously, Carty was better than both last season and comfortably too!
I'm just confused as to why R.B is rated so poorly here?
Carberry hasn't done anything, barring injury. Obviously, Carberry is a better athlete, but that's not the primary need for an oh. It's control and linking the forwards and backs.
Right now Burns is imo, the best 10.

Buer · 10-12-2019 4:39pm

aloooof wrote: »

Carbery has been brilliant in spells for Munster, but his biggest issue is staying fit. If he can shake off the injury problems, imo he's in poll position to take over after Sexton.

For me, his biggest issue is delivering in a big game against big opposition. I'm yet to see it. Any time he has faced a strong side at either club or test level, his performance has been relatively average. I want to see him take a game by the scruff and steer Munster/Ireland through a difficult game where he has to dictate play.

He's undoubtedly the most naturally gifted option we have but that doesn't always add up to performances on the pitch.

I honestly don't know who is going to end up as the long term outhalf for Ireland although Carbery is definitely the front runner. He'll need to seize one of his opportunities soon though and really make the jersey his own.

Interested Observer · 10-12-2019 4:47pm

Buer wrote: »

For me, his biggest issue is delivering in a big game against big opposition. I'm yet to see it. Any time he has faced a strong side at either club or test level, his performance has been relatively average. I want to see him take a game by the scruff and steer Munster/Ireland through a difficult game where he has to dictate play.

I agree with this. We had his 'masterclass' last season against Gloucester but... I mean it's Gloucester. I can't remember him really dominating a game for Munster or Ireland against a top opposition. I'm not convinced at all.

Schmidt had decided from a long way out that he was the next guy in line but we don't know if Farrell has the same view either.

aloooof · 10-12-2019 4:49pm

Buer wrote: »

For me, his biggest issue is delivering in a big game against big opposition. I'm yet to see it. Any time he has faced a strong side at either club or test level, his performance has been relatively average. I want to see him take a game by the scruff and steer Munster/Ireland through a difficult game where he has to dictate play.

He's undoubtedly the most naturally gifted option we have but that doesn't always add up to performances on the pitch.

I honestly don't know who is going to end up as the long term outhalf for Ireland although Carbery is definitely the front runner. He'll need to seize one of his opportunities soon though and really make the jersey his own.

The closest he's gotten to this was the spell of games from December thru to his injury in the 6 Nations last season, where he was very good:

aloooof wrote:

But for the next spell of games he was brilliant; his next 4 starts were against Leinster, Connacht, Gloucester and Exeter. We won all 4 and he got MOTM in 2. He went on a run of about 5 games without missing a penalty. Gloucester in particular, he was superb.

He still has a way to go to knit it all together, but for me he has a higher ceiling than Byrne. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Shefwedfan · 10-12-2019 4:53pm

Buer wrote: »

For me, his biggest issue is delivering in a big game against big opposition. I'm yet to see it. Any time he has faced a strong side at either club or test level, his performance has been relatively average. I want to see him take a game by the scruff and steer Munster/Ireland through a difficult game where he has to dictate play.

He's undoubtedly the most naturally gifted option we have but that doesn't always add up to performances on the pitch.

I honestly don't know who is going to end up as the long term outhalf for Ireland although Carbery is definitely the front runner. He'll need to seize one of his opportunities soon though and really make the jersey his own.

Carbery needs time before he gets that experience. That's why he could do with a long run without an injury.

He is still very young, so plenty of time. It would be great if he was sit in next few weeks and just had the full run out for the rest of season fit.

Niallof9 · 10-12-2019 5:03pm

Jaysis. Joey hasn't had a decent opportunity at all. Least of all for Ireland. And his injuries haven't helped. He's a far superior operator to Bryne.

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 5:04pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jaysis. Joey hasn't had a decent opportunity at all. Least of all for Ireland. And his inuries haven't helped. He's a far superior operator to Bryne.

‘Far superior operator’.

Why can’t he beat him, then?

Talent, yes. Operator, no.

Niallof9 · 10-12-2019 5:05pm

Faugheen wrote: »

It’s because he’s not fancy or flashy.

Give me substance over style everyday

Cause that's worked out real well recently

ross is a very solid player. He's a rhys patchell level player. He'll get double figure caps. But if he's the future of where we are heading we are in serious trouble imo.We need to start getting realistic about some of the stuff here. We are in danger of hyping every player that comes through in a province. Like i swear if Scannell played for Leinster people would be bigging him up, rather than admitting he's a solid pro.

Carbery has something special about him. Its like Jimmy Ryan. We have yet to see the full full package. Kelleher's another one. Doris, Penny. The talent is so obvious. Its freakish. Van Der Flier is now showing the full works as well. I was wrong, Leavy has to go to 6 now.

People we thought were at that level were Hanrahan, Marshall, Madigan maybe..it didn't happen. they didn't have the coaching these lads have had imo.

To see what Byrne can't do is a much easier exercise. Its unfortunate that the comparison is his younger brother.Footwork, pace that sort of stuff...ross lacks.

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 5:07pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Cause that's worked out real well recently

ross is a very solid player. He's a phys patchell level player. He'll get double figure caps. But if he's the future of where we are heading we are in serious trouble imo.

‘Rhys Patchell’ knows how to win games, which is what it’s all about at the end of the day.

Can you say the same about Carbery? Or Carty?

aloooof · 10-12-2019 5:13pm

Faugheen wrote: »

‘Far superior operator’.

Why can’t he beat him, then?

Talent, yes. Operator, no.

Because rugby is a team sport, no an individual one. You've mentioned this a few times, but it's beyond a flawed comparison. (It was the same with Byrne vs Carty iirc).

It's the equivalent of saying Sexton has never beaten Carbery in matches they've started against each other; I'm sure you'd agree that's a ridiculous comparison? Yet it's no less true. And equally, it means virtually nothing.

Buer · 10-12-2019 5:15pm

aloooof wrote: »

The closest he's gotten to this was the spell of games from December thru to his injury in the 6 Nations last season, where he was very good:

He still has a way to go to knit it all together, but for me he has a higher ceiling than Byrne. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

I tend to agree, largely. He was very solid in those games although I don't think he was close to the same level against 14 man Leinster or Exeter as he was against Gloucester. He struggled to create much at all in those first two games. I'm optimistic that Larkham will add a dimension to his game in terms of decision making and exposing the opposition.

He undoubtedly has a higher ceiling than Byrne who isn't going to be a test level outhalf. He has too many limitations physically, notably his athleticism/pace and also passing style which telegraphs his intentions at times. His calmness, low error count and defence are ideal for success at European level but I think he'll need more for test rugby.

errlloyd · 10-12-2019 5:17pm

The most equivalent outhalf to Byrne is Steenson.

Whether Carbery ends up being a Michalak / Cooper or a Shane Geraghty remains to be seen.

sydthebeat · 10-12-2019 5:19pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Whether Carbery ends up being a Michalak / Cooper or a Shane Geraghty remains to be seen.

talk about damning with faint praise

aloooof · 10-12-2019 5:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

talk about damning with faint praise

It took me a second to figure out which was the good side and which was the bad side. :pac:

errlloyd · 10-12-2019 5:31pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

talk about damning with faint praise

Ahhh to be fair, Michalak had one hell of a career.

400 top flight games between Toulouse, Toulon, Lyon, Sharks and France.

4 Heineken Cup wins, a couple of grand slams. France's all time leading points scorer.

sydthebeat · 10-12-2019 5:45pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Ahhh to be fair, Michalak had one hell of a career.

400 top flight games between Toulouse, Toulon, Lyon, Sharks and France.

4 Heineken Cup wins, a couple of grand slams. France's all time leading points scorer.

ah yeah im only messing....

but the reputation for both michalak and cooper was about their flakiness... very talented but "get-at-able"

i hope carbery doesnt end up with the same rep.

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 6:55pm

aloooof wrote: »

Because rugby is a team sport, no an individual one. You've mentioned this a few times, but it's beyond a flawed comparison. (It was the same with Byrne vs Carty iirc).

It's the equivalent of saying Sexton has never beaten Carbery in matches they've started against each other; I'm sure you'd agree that's a ridiculous comparison? Yet it's no less true. And equally, it means virtually nothing.

If Carbery was a better ‘operator’ then beating a team operated by a player as poor as Byrne is made out to be shouldn’t be a problem.

That’s what we’re talking about here. Who the better operator is. Right now, it’s Byrne and his record in Europe and inter-pros backs that up.

Dubinusa · 10-12-2019 7:04pm

Who knows what will happen. Maybe Burns comes in and we play great? Everything clicks. Maybe Healy is the answer or Fitzgerald or even the younger Byrne.
The next few weeks are crucial.
I reckon RB will be in the squad.

aloooof · 10-12-2019 7:19pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If Carbery was a better ‘operator’ then beating a team operated by a player as poor as Byrne is made out to be shouldn’t be a problem.

That’s what we’re talking about here. Who the better operator is. Right now, it’s Byrne and his record in Europe and inter-pros backs that up.

I never said Carbery was a better operator. Or that Byrne is poor.

My only point was that comparing head-to-head records is practically worthless. Because rugby is a team sport.

P.Walnuts · 10-12-2019 7:23pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If Carbery was a better ‘operator’ then beating a team operated by a player as poor as Byrne is made out to be shouldn’t be a problem.

That’s what we’re talking about here. Who the better operator is. Right now, it’s Byrne and his record in Europe and inter-pros backs that up.

You do realise there are 14 other players that contribute to the outcome of a match right?

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 7:32pm

aloooof wrote: »

I never said Carbery was a better operator. Or that Byrne is poor.

That was the post you replied to.

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 7:33pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

You do realise there are 14 other players that contribute to the outcome of a match right?

I’m fully aware of that. Are you aware that 10 is an extremely pivotal position?

Shefwedfan · 10-12-2019 7:34pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

You do realise there are 14 other players that contribute to the outcome of a match right?

In most positions on the pitch, if they have a poor game the team can "cover" off that player

I do think that 10 is critical, especially in Ireland. A poor performance from a 10 and I would expect the percentage chance of losing is higher. I don't know how you could pull that figure but it would be interesting

aloooof · 10-12-2019 7:39pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m fully aware of that. Are you aware that 10 is an extremely pivotal position?

Not so pivotal that comparing head-to-head results of opposing tens gives you an in-any-way useful metric, tho.

aloooof · 10-12-2019 7:40pm

Faugheen wrote: »

That was the post you replied to.

I bolded the bit I was replying to i.e. “Why can’t he beat him, then?”.

Yeah_Right · 10-12-2019 7:42pm

aloooof wrote: »

It took me a second to figure out which was the good side and which was the bad side. :pac:

My first reaction was "who was Geraghty? Obviously he was a very good 10 who ran the game well. Must have been before my time."

ClanofLams · 10-12-2019 7:59pm

Head to head ‘records’ are utterly pointless in rugby. You could also make an argument for a number of positions being as important as 10.

Would tend to think the old maxim of forwards deciding who wins and backs by how much has a fair degree of truth in it. Doesn’t matter how quality your backline is if forwards don’t give a platform.

Faugheen · 10-12-2019 7:59pm

aloooof wrote: »

I bolded the bit I was replying to i.e. “Why can’t he beat him, then?”.

Which was said in response to a post that said Carbery was supposedly a ‘better operator’.

Better operators help win games. Byrne does that, and has done so multiple times in interpros and in Europe. Including a MOTM in a game against Carbery. So yes it’s very relevant comparing how players perform when they play each other. You brought up Sexton v Carbery in Thomond last year. Probably the only time we’ll see them play against each other and Carbery won, most importantly in a game where Sexton lost his head and Carbery kept his.

No question who the bigger talent is, for what it’s worth.

P.Walnuts · 10-12-2019 8:06pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Which was said in response to a post that said Carbery was supposedly a ‘better operator’.

Better operators help win games. Byrne does that, and has done so multiple times in interpros and in Europe. Including a MOTM in a game against Carbery. So yes it’s very relevant comparing how players perform when they play each other. You brought up Sexton v Carbery in Thomond last year. Probably the only time we’ll see them play against each other and Carbery won, most importantly in a game where Sexton lost his head and Carbery kept his.

No question who the bigger talent is, for what it’s worth.

So lets just say hypothetically, Byrne played for Munster and Carbery for Leinster.

By your logic, you would expect Munster to beat Leinster every time they played them? Right?

Hopefully you can see how ludicrous your stance is. Dig in though by all means if you want.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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