Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148 · 16-11-2020 6:59pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

Oh you know full well.

But to play along ... Trans Rights Activists.

No need for the attitude - it was a genuine question.

And this is the sign of the times with the permanent outrage btw - you can't begin to have a serious discussion on anything these days without someone about to jump down your throat...

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-11-2020 7:01pm

km991148 wrote: »

I am sure in any one of these examples (biological males in women's sport, child with "forced" gender or the case of a male entering a women's prison etc etc) - they are very isolated one off cases. In the main there is no trend of forcing anyone to do anything or any sort of 'encouragement'.

Who cares if they are rare? To the individual with an ever altered body, that’s of little comfort. The way they are spoken of, almost as acceptable collateral, is sickening.

And, no, I won’t stop caring about this.

km991148 wrote: »

I said no such thing.

I asked you a question. Which sections of the media are you criticising here? I hazarded a few guesses but please, fill me in on what you meant.

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:01pm

km991148 wrote: »

I am sure in any one of these examples (biological males in women's sport, child with "forced" gender or the case of a male entering a women's prison etc etc) - they are very isolated one off cases. In the main there is no trend of forcing anyone to do anything or any sort of 'encouragement'.

There does seem to be a bit of an agenda to be more accepting of those who either have gender issues or want to express gender differently from what has been traditional in the last few hundred years. There has also (it seems) been a whole lot of counter outrage and people letting their imaginations run amok.

Take a breath, break out from your YouTube/Facebook/Online bubbles and daily media cycles and relax..

There are quite a number of biological males in competitive female sport competing at high levels and winning.
Veronica Ivy
Laurel Hubbard
Fallon Fox
Hannah Mouncey
Andraya Yearwood
Cece Telfer
and many others

There are quite a few transwomen in female prisons including
More than 125 in the UK
2 in Ireland

There are court cases being taken in the UK eg Keira Bell, Susan Evans. In Canada a few days ago in B.C. a 17 year old was stopped from double mastectomy. In the US there have been many custody cases where one parent in a couple has objected to the transgendering of their child. As a few examples off the top of my head.

There are large desister or detransitioning social media groups where people are sharing experience and advice because they have been left with irreversible damage after surgery or hormones.

Your idea of ''one offs'' does not amount to much, and is in fact an attempt to encourage acceptable collateral damage.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:05pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Who cares if they are rare? To the individual with an ever altered body, that’s of little comfort. The way they are spoken of, almost as acceptable collateral, is sickening.

And, no, I won’t stop caring about this.

Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).

If someone presents (at any age) as having gender identity issues and are encouraged to make some life long changes (which doesn't happen overnight btw) and then regret or discover the original solution wasn't the correct one, of course its a horribly devastating and tragic situation.
But really unless anyone has direct experience of this or has seen it close up, then I am sorry, but it just sounds like a bunch of fear mongering generalisations.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:08pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Your idea of ''one offs'' does not amount to much, and is in fact an attempt to encourage acceptable collateral damage.

er no its not..

Just putting this into perspective. It does not detract from the tragic circumstances highlights in some of those cases you mentioned. But some people seem to think there is some mass gender swapping agenda being pushed on society as a whole. It doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Tig98 · 16-11-2020 7:08pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

If your daughter is into football and your boy wants to dress as Belle frigging LET THEM!!!

NO pills, NO surgery - just happy kids.

This is my view exactly. I think it is a gross indecency to have any form of gender reassignment surgery - your bits are your bits, just leave em. If you want to do things contra to what society expects of your gender thats completely fine, all the more power to you. I think people going through gender reassignment etc are unintentionally reinforcing traditional gender roles by insisting they need certain biological apparatus to do certain things contentedly. If youre a girl who likes building pursue it, a boy who wears makeup do it. Society needs more people who are fearlessly themselves.

Im a gay man so people expect me to be very Liberal, and maybe my view is hipocritical because of the gay rights movement, but I dont consider gender reassignment surgery the right thing to do.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:11pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I asked you a question. Which sections of the media are you criticising here? I hazarded a few guesses but please, fill me in on what you meant.

Sorry - didn't see the second part of your post because you edited it (Probably better to create a new post otherwise it gets missed?).

I didn't mean any specific outlets, but in general.

Heart Break Kid · 16-11-2020 7:13pm

Are you looking for opinions from a factual biological scientific point of view or a socialisation/gender identity point of view?

When people reference if your male or female it’s a reference to your sex and not your gender identity.

I think there are some really interesting questions in relation to how trans people manage in the sporting environment . More so where a male to female trans person competes against non-trans women and the advantage a trans female can have in terms of strength, speed and general athletics.

A question I always had for a trans person is; How do they form their self identify as a male or female?

Of the few trans people I know, some seem to have utilised their brothers or close family members personalities to help form their self identify which can be extremely toxic personalities.

I suppose the question is what makes a trans man or women feel they are a women or man. Is it clothes, behaviours, title, use of different toilets? I probably would never be offended if someone misused my pronouns and maybe it’s never been an issue for me but still.

I don’t believe that you should be allowed to change your original birth certificate or any other historical record minus the exception for those who are born as both of the 2 sexes. I also believe the genitalia who have categorise the sex you should be identified as.

Also extremely opposed to children taking any sort of medication or surgery that will adjust their biological and physical make up in anyway and may even consider till someone is in their 20s till they have fully grown.

trixi001 · 16-11-2020 7:14pm

Its simple really

Born as a female, you are a female
Born as a male, you are a male
Born as intersex - you are intersex

That is who you are biologically

Biological males have physical differences to biological females...this needs to be recognised.
Female sports exist because females are simply in most cases not able to compete with males, so allowing males to participate does away with the point in female only sport.

As for prisons, perhaps they should be mixed anyway (with the exception of sex offenders), prison needs to about rehabilitation, separating the sexes doesn't help with this. Perhaps Allow mixing withing reason with seperate sleeping quarters? I know there may be issues with this, but i think it should be explored. I believe there is a mixed sex prison in England.

Very few things need to be single sex, and less single sex facilities makes transgender less of an issue - why do we need single sex toilets, changing rooms etc, just have separate cubicles. My local leisure centre was refurbished and it has one changing room now with individual cubicles - works well.

I have no issue with anyone identifying as whatever gender they want, and i will try to use whatever pronoun they want me to use, but don't sue me or "cancel" me if i don't on one occasion, or use social media to go into a rant about someone using the wrong pronoun. Let people live their lives however they choose as long as it is not hurting anyone else.

I do not think children should be given chemicals or have surgery until they are at least 16. I think every person who self ID's needs to have a least one session of therapy before they get a certificate to ensure that it is right for them, and gender issues are not masking other mental health issues.

Its a complex area, there are no easy answers

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-11-2020 7:15pm

km991148 wrote: »

Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).

I’ve already asked somebody this on this thread but do you only care about issues that affect you personally? I find that such a self-absorbed position.

We are already seeing the downside of self ID in Ireland. You can shrug your shoulders but I’m not going to personally.

Gervais08 · 16-11-2020 7:15pm

Tig98 wrote: »

This is my view exactly. I think it is a gross indecency to have any form of gender reassignment surgery - your bits are your bits, just leave em. If you want to do things contra to what society expects of your gender thats completely fine, all the more power to you. I think people going through gender reassignment etc are unintentionally reinforcing traditional gender roles by insisting they need certain biological apparatus to do certain things contentedly. If youre a girl who likes building pursue it, a boy who wears makeup do it. Society needs more people who are fearlessly themselves.

Im a gay man so people expect me to be very Liberal, and maybe my view is hipocritical because of the gay rights movement, but I dont consider gender reassignment surgery the right thing to do.

I don’t think you are at all hypocritical. I was assumed to be a lesbian in my teens because I hung round with lads, into sport - etc. Thankfully the parents said “if she brings a girl back here then she’s a lesbian, she isn’t for wanting to watch the Open golf!!”

I’m straight but that’s just neither here nor there. Well unless Gal Gadot winks st me then I’ll consider it!!!

I’m a staunch ally to the gay community and one of the things that deeply concerns me is the erasing of same sex attraction by “transing the gay away” as I read online (Twitter but don’t judge!!).

That would be an incredibly sad day if they succeed.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:19pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’ve already asked somebody this on this thread but do you only care about issues that affect you personally? I find that such a self-absorbed position.

You should really stop making assumptions here - I am asking if its something you have direct experience of because if it is something you have a more intimate knowledge of then you might have more insight than someone that doesn't.

But opinions are like arseholes - everyone got one and no one cares..

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

We are already seeing the downside of self ID in Ireland. You can shrug your shoulders but I’m not going to personally.

Can you elaborate - I am not sure explicitly what you mean by Self ID and what downsides?

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:25pm

km991148 wrote: »

Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).

If someone presents (at any age) as having gender identity issues and are encouraged to make some life long changes (which doesn't happen overnight btw) and then regret or discover the original solution wasn't the correct one, of course its a horribly devastating and tragic situation.
But really unless anyone has direct experience of this or has seen it close up, then I am sorry, but it just sounds like a bunch of fear mongering generalisations.

Can I have an opinion on the young women imprisoned for decades in Iran for not wearing scarves?
Can I have an opinion on the young girls sent from Ireland to have FGM done abroad?
Can I have an opinion on US oil-seeking imperialism in the Middle East?
Can I have an opinion on knife crime in London?
Can I have an opinion on Salafi violence in Europe?

What exactly are you trying to do - stop me having an opinion?
I happen to know of several cases connecting to transgenderism, including an abandoned wife whose former husband is on an ''emotional journey'' to their real self and cannot see the torment he has caused his wife and a child in school who has other disorders.
But even if i did not I have also taken a deep interest in this area over several years particularly with regard to how post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. It affects me as a planetary citizen when falsehood is promoted in law, regulation, science etc as I see it as dangerously subversive to reason.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:28pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Can I have an opinion on the young women imprisoned for decades in Iran for not wearing scarves?
Can I have an opinion on the young girls sent from Ireland to have FGM done abroad?
Can I have an opinion on US oil-seeking imperialism in the Middle East?
Can I have an opinion on knife crime in London?
Can I have an opinion on Salafi violence in Europe?

What exactly are you trying to do - stop me having an opinion?

Read my reply to ODB above and for goodness sake stop jumping down my throat. Where did I deny your right to an opinion. I am just curious about peoples experience?

Omackeral · 16-11-2020 7:30pm

km991148 wrote: »

Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know?

Not always a solid argument. I don't personally know anyone who is in a same-sex marriage. I didn't let that stop me from voting for SSM.

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:32pm

km991148 wrote: »

Read my reply to ODB above and for goodness sake stop jumping down my throat. Where did I deny your right to an opinion. I am just curious about peoples experience?

You are specifically asking and repeatedly why people should have an opinion on this subject if not personally impacted or experienced.
It is actually a tactic for trying to shut a person out of a debate, by implying they have no locus standi. So saying afterwards hey don't jump down my throat is trying to distance yourself from your own repeated tactic.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:32pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

I happen to know of several cases connecting to transgenderism, including an abandoned wife whose former husband is on an ''emotional journey'' to their real self and cannot see the torment he has caused his wife and a child in school who has other disorders.

A tragic case, no doubt.

Gruffalux wrote: »

But even if i did not I have also taken a deep interest in this area over several years particularly with regard to how post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. It affects me as a planetary citizen when falsehood is promoted in law, regulation, science etc as I see it as dangerously subversive to reason.

Try that again in simple terms, because really it doesn't sound like a real thing at all.
I'd appreciate some some empirical evidence or papers to back this up.

jam_mac_jam · 16-11-2020 7:34pm

km991148 wrote: »

You should really stop making assumptions here - I am asking if its something you have direct experience of because if it is something you have a more intimate knowledge of then you might have more insight than someone that doesn't.

But opinions are like arseholes - everyone got one and no one cares..

Can you elaborate - I am not sure explicitly what you mean by Self ID and what downsides?

Yes. I have directed experience of a family member who is a teenage girl who is having doubts about her identity. Not close family member.

I don't think that's the reason for my interest in the issue if young people. I think I can emphasize as I did not have the happiest teenage years and am not a very feminine girl. I think it's very dangerous for children and teenagers.

I also see that if you have gender dysphoria from a young age then it may be beneficial to go through the drug treatments. It's not being done from an evil motivation.

We need to be able to discuss this without being called names or dismissed. And so do doctors and sex researchers.

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:37pm

km991148 wrote: »

A tragic case, no doubt.

Try that again in simple terms, because really it doesn't sound like a real thing at all.
I'd appreciate some some empirical evidence or papers to back this up.

It is a thing. A whole big complicated thing that has been going on for a long time.

Why don't you read up or research the whole area yourself a lot more, rather than coming in and saying hey I've no clue what's going on but let me say that some people should not have an opinion?

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:37pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

You are specifically asking and repeatedly why people should have an opinion on this subject if not personally impacted or experienced.
It is actually a tactic for trying to shut a person out of a debate, by implying they have no locus standi. So saying afterwards hey don't jump down my throat is trying to distance yourself from your own repeated tactic.

I asked one person if they had direct experience because I am interested in the direct impact or experience they may have had in order to challenge my own views.

In return I've had several people question my motives, insinuate I am setting up false arguments or straw men (I genuinely didn't understand TRA acronym) and all sorts of other nonsense.

Gervais08 · 16-11-2020 7:38pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Not always a solid argument. I don't personally know anyone who is in a same-sex marriage. I didn't let that stop me from voting for SSM.

I was a witness at one - apparently that gives me more insight!

I don’t think it does but there you go!

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:39pm

km991148 wrote: »

I asked one person if they had direct experience because I am interested in the direct impact or experience they may have had in order to challenge my own views.

In return I've had several people question my motives, insinuate I am setting up false arguments or straw men (I genuinely didn't understand TRA acronym) and all sorts of other nonsense.

This is a big area. People have talked at length on boards about many of the diverse aspects of it. It would be rather a chore to have to hand feed someone who just says I hardly know about this and if it does not affect you directly what's your beef...

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:39pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

It is a thing. A whole big complicated thing that has been going on for a long time.

Why don't you read up or research the whole area yourself a lot more

I gave my opinion and I am curious about others. If you or others want to be dickish about it, then go ahead..

Gruffalux wrote: »

but let me say that some people should not have an opinion?

Your assumption, not actually what happened.

nolivesmatter · 16-11-2020 7:40pm

I don't have a problem referring to someone as the sex to which they've transitioned or whatever. It's the people who spout the "there's no biological difference between the sexes" and the "individuals with the cervix" type nonsense that put me off. I wish they'd just feck off.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:41pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

This is a big area. People have talked at length on boards about many of the diverse aspects of it. It would be rather a chore to have to hand feed someone who just says I hardly know about this and if it does not affect you directly what's your beef...

So you can only join the debate if you have followed every other debate and know all your TLAs inside out.. give me a break ffs

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:42pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

I was a witness at one - apparently that gives me more insight!

I don’t think it does but there you go!

These threads would really go a whole lot better without the attitude and the deliberate twisting of words tbh..

Gatling · 16-11-2020 7:44pm

Someone in work was talking about a show on C4 naked dating ,
People choose a date based off looking at the other people who happen to be naked before they meet ,
Channel 4 so no surprise there ,

Straight girl decided she wanted her first lesbian experience with a trans women who hadn't transitioned ,so she wanted hetro sex with a man with boobs ,
As this somehow qualified as an lesbian experience,

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-11-2020 7:44pm

km991148 wrote: »

Can you elaborate - I am not sure explicitly what you mean by Self ID and what downsides?

As mentioned upthread, currently there are two male prisoners in possession of GRCs being housed in Limerick’s women prison. One is a sex offender, the other has a history of violence towards women. To you, maybe that’s nothing. To me, it’s egregious. Are we waiting for something bad to happen? And self ID has allowed this situation.

But who cares, right? It doesn’t affect me personally so why should I care. Right?

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:45pm

km991148 wrote: »

So you can only join the debate if you have followed every other debate and know all your TLAs inside out.. give me a break ffs

If you are going to play the innocent ingenue, then keep your story straight from the start.

you earlier..

Usual faces with the usual 'outrage'.. You would think there was a band of extremists on the prowl kidnapping children with butterfly nets and forcing hormones and gender change on them before releasing them back into the population they way some of you carry on

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:46pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As mentioned upthread, currently there are two male prisoners in possession of GRCs being housed in Limerick’s women prison. One is a sex offender, the other has a history of violence towards women. To you, maybe that’s nothing. To me, it’s egregious. Are we waiting for something bad to happen? And self ID has allowed this situation.

But who cares, right? It doesn’t affect me personally so why should I care. Right?

Your narrative (no one said that). Again. This really would be a much healthier conversation without the snark.

Sittingpretty · 16-11-2020 7:46pm

Gatling wrote: »

Someone in work was talking about a show on C4 naked dating ,
People choose a date based off looking at the other people who happen to be naked before they meet ,
Channel 4 so no surprise there ,

Straight girl decided she wanted her first lesbian experience with a trans women who hadn't transitioned ,so she wanted hetro sex with a man with boobs ,
As this somehow qualified as an lesbian experience,

There was also a trans woman in it one night who had a complete **** fit when she wasn’t chosen to go on the date.

Gervais08 · 16-11-2020 7:49pm

Gatling wrote: »

Someone in work was talking about a show on C4 naked dating ,
People choose a date based off looking at the other people who happen to be naked before they meet ,
Channel 4 so no surprise there ,

Straight girl decided she wanted her first lesbian experience with a trans women who hadn't transitioned ,so she wanted hetro sex with a man with boobs ,
As this somehow qualified as an lesbian experience,

But that’s straight sex! With boobies ... you know what, never mind, my brain will hurt and I already have a headache!!!

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:50pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

If you are going to play the innocent ingenue, then keep your story straight from the start.

you earlier..

Usual faces with the usual 'outrage'.. You would think there was a band of extremists on the prowl kidnapping children with butterfly nets and forcing hormones and gender change on them before releasing them back into the population they way some of you carry on

Fair enough.. I was a bit snarky too.. but the whole asking about experience thing.. I was genuinely curious and did not seek to deny opinion, why would I?! And I really didn't know the TRA acronym.

Omackeral · 16-11-2020 7:52pm

km991148 wrote: »

give me a break ffs

km991148 wrote: »

These threads would really go a whole lot better without the attitude..

There's one minute between these posts.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 7:54pm

Omackeral wrote: »

There's one minute between these posts.

lol - figuratively, not literally

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:55pm

km991148 wrote: »

Fair enough.. I was a bit snarky too.. but the whole asking about experience thing.. I was genuinely curious and did not seek to deny opinion, why would I?! And I really didn't know the TRA acronym.

I don't really care if you did not know TRA acronym. There are lots of things I don't know.
You did not merely say what is your experience, but rather couched it in terms of if you have no experience then why have a strong opinion. This is completely different than what you are now suggesting you said.
And...if your first contribution to the thread is ''usual faces, usual outrage'', something your repeated a few times after that, then I suspect this is not your first time encountering the subject on here, which suggests to me you are being disingenuous.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-11-2020 7:56pm

km991148 wrote: »

Your narrative (no one said that). Again. This really would be a much healthier conversation without the snark.

Meh, deflect however you want.

And you entered the thread snarkily.

jam_mac_jam · 16-11-2020 7:57pm

km991148 wrote: »

So you can only join the debate if you have followed every other debate and know all your TLAs inside out.. give me a break ffs

No. You don't have to follow every detail of the debate. That gender theory ideology has influenced the debate is a fairly fundamental point to the whole debate and the history of the debate.

You are asking for peer reviewed articles to prove post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. ( Cynical Theories by Helen Puckrose)

Nobody is asking you to read all the other threads but you cannot expect people to explain that to you. Which to be honest will take a while and you can't even be arsed googling it.

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 7:58pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No. You don't have to follow every detail of the debate. That gender theory ideology has influenced the debate is a fairly fundamental point to the whole debate and the history of the debate.

You are asking for peer reviewed articles to prove post modern deconstructionist gender theory ideology is being actively used to overthrow empirical science. ( Cynical Theories by Helen Puckrose)

Nobody is asking you to read all the other threads but you cannot expect people to explain that to you. Which to be honest will take a while and you can't even be arsed googling it.

Thank you jam mac jam

*Bows

km991148 · 16-11-2020 8:02pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

I don't really care if you did not know TRA acronym. There are lots of things I don't know.
You did not merely say what is your experience, but rather couched it in terms of if you have no experience then why have a strong opinion. This is completely different than what you are now suggesting you said.
And...if your first contribution to the thread is ''usual faces, usual outrage'', something your repeated a few times after that, then I suspect this is not your first time encountering the subject on here, which suggests to me you are being disingenuous.

I was annoyed when i wrote the first comment. It set the rest up in those terms, fair enough and deserved some of the nonsense back at me.

Here is the post where I asked:

km991148 wrote: »

Is this something that personally impacts you or someone you know (Genuine question, if you don't want to answer, I understand)?

I am not saying that people shouldn't care about the individuals that have been affected in these cases. But it just seems that people are willing to go deep on all sorts of hypothetical individualised/isolated situations and extrapolate them out as if each of them are happening over and over (i.e. as generalisations).

If someone presents (at any age) as having gender identity issues and are encouraged to make some life long changes (which doesn't happen overnight btw) and then regret or discover the original solution wasn't the correct one, of course its a horribly devastating and tragic situation.
But really unless anyone has direct experience of this or has seen it close up, then I am sorry, but it just sounds like a bunch of fear mongering generalisations.

I guess I didn't make the distinction strong enough. I was genuinely interested in this persons direct experience and THEN I was saying it sounds like a bunch of people like to jump on a bandwagon as it were.

I am not saying those without direct experience have no right to an opinion, but those with a less informed opinion have less of an impact (in my opinion!).

i.e. - I would sit up and listen more intently to someone who has been through the whole process of (for example) surgery and then the aftermath than someone who is just another person on the internet.

km991148 · 16-11-2020 8:05pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Meh, deflect however you want.

And you entered the thread snarkily.

I am way more snarkily now :pac:
meh indeed..

I came in snarky - got hit with more (probably deserved) snark and somewhere in the middle tried to genuinely understand what people are saying.

Can we actually discuss the thread topic now? Or do you want another round or two of this?

LLMMLL · 16-11-2020 8:07pm

Omackeral wrote: »

I’ve gotten in trouble for saying this before (on a different forum) but what happens if someone “feels” like they’re Asian or Black or White rather than their birth ethnicity. What if they wanted to identify as such. Would that be considered

a) whacky b) legitimate c) I’m not actually sure

Why/why not?

People who have no connection with a race or ethnic group but claim to be part of that group are extreeeeeeemely rare as far as I know. Other than Rachel dolzeal (I think that's her name) and one other recent case the details of which I can't recall I've never heard of it or encountered it.

It's also not clear what Rachel dolzeal actually believed. "identify" can be used in so many ways. I can say I identify as anything I want. It doesn't mean it has anything in common with trans issues.

If a significant number of people with no familial link to black people claimed they were black, I'd definitely be interested in finding out more about why this is. However, there isn't. There's a tiny number of people who.may or may not have believed they are a different race.

Even a person with family links to a race can have issues declaring they are part of that race. Is a very light skinned black person black if they have 2 black parents, or one white parent and one black parent. Or if they had vitiligo over a large proportion of their body etc.

I personally wouldn't presume to tell people what race they are.

cannotlogin · 16-11-2020 8:08pm

Sex is determined scientifically by chromosomes.

However, I believe there are absolutely genuine cases where a person believes they are born into the wrong body and it causes them tremendous heartache and difficulty, whether it's intersex, hormonal whatever and that they have the right as a fully grown informed adult to address this in whatever way they want, dressing as the preferred sex, gender reassignment surgery etc. I wouldn't treat anyone any differently as a result either.

I've read a lot on this as I don't fully understand it and the piece that concerns me is the treatment of children. Reports 're The Tavistock Clinic, Gender Dysphoria and Detransitioning are concerning.
There was even research done on a situation in the UK where 7 girls all wanted to transition and 5 have changed their mind since covid given the reduced interaction with their peers.

I don't think anyone under 18 should be allowed receive hormone treatment. If they still want to transition as a fully informed adult, then I have no issue.

The teenager years and puberty years cause huge angst & I think that's why there are so many incorrectly diagnosed. I developed early as a child and hated my breasts & the attention that came with them. I bound them, hid them everything...if someone asked me as a 11/12, i'm fairly sure gender reasignment would have appealed to me, when all I needed was to mature.

IAMAMORON · 16-11-2020 8:09pm

It never ceases to amaze me how it is persons who are not transgendered that seem to have the most objection to it?

If you don't have the mental tenacity, or capacity, to comprehend what transsexuals are going through, I fail to see why you are entitled to an opinion on the matter?

By criticizing their existence and demanding that they adhere to their birth identity, or thus facilitate other biological boundaries, you are not fully understanding how a transsexual feels. In brief you couldn't unless you are a transsexual?

I don't understand people who feel it is their right to impose their will or attitude on anyone else's? If you do not understand someone else, you certainly have no right to pass comment on their existence? This world is to be shared, the last time I looked around for a common consensus anyways.

I think people should try to be more kind to others, rather than judging them and trying to itemize them. People deserve more respect, that includes transgenders.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 16-11-2020 8:10pm

There are two genders.

Man.
Woman.

And there are some people with a mental disorder who believe otherwise.

LLMMLL · 16-11-2020 8:16pm

km991148 wrote: »

Usual faces with the usual 'outrage'..

You would think there was a band of extremists on the prowl kidnapping children with butterfly nets and forcing hormones and gender change on them before releasing them back into the population they way some of you carry on..

This is actually not that far off what TERFs believe unfortunately. Apart from the butterfly nets.

CtevenSrowder · 16-11-2020 8:18pm

km991148 wrote: »

A tragic case, no doubt.

Try that again in simple terms, because really it doesn't sound like a real thing at all.
I'd appreciate some some empirical evidence or papers to back this up.

However, this frame of thought falsely makes us believe that science is an objective enterprise and transcends culture. For many scientists, we are convinced that objectivity prevents an oppressive culture because discoveries are independent of identity. Consequently, we unknowingly spread whiteness ideology.

This is certainly not true of the hard sciences, and rarely true for the social sciences. Yet no distinction is made throughout the paper and in fact only refers to the former.

However, the issue is not that scientists do not believe that science has a multicultural origin, but rather the way that we conceptualize and think about science makes people believe that Western science is the only science that “works”, which facilitates master scripting and erasure of stories and knowledge that are not considered “standard” knowledge (Swartz 1992).

There is no such thing as 'Western science' to begin with, there is just science... the bolded part seems to be suggesting we should accept pseudo-science as fact as long as it isn't Western pseudo-science.

I am not sure if you will have access to the paper but I suggest you read it to get a nice introduction into what the OP was talking about, the paper is a bunch of racist rubbish:

Since whiteness is characterized as a hegemonic racial dominance that has become so natural it is almost invisible

According to Matias (2016a, b), whiteness is the problem because it is almost seemingly invisible to detect because of its normativity (Rothenberg 2008), and the issues of racism that lead to racial achievement gaps would not be had if whiteness did not exist. Plainly, race is only an issue because whiteness exists.

Whiteness embraces White ideology, and because Whites are at the apex of the racial hierarchy, whiteness becomes normalized and is invisible to those who benefit the most from it (Matias, Viesca, Garrison-Wade, Tandon, and Galindo 2014). This is particularly troubling because the normality of whiteness means that Whites do not believe that they are actively investing in White supremacy or racism, which keeps oppression intact.

it is paramount that we think about acts of whiteness and how it can be used to undermine our students of Color. If we want to commit to racial justice within science education, we must have science educators who are not complicit in whiteness.

For example, Matias and Michalinos Zembylas (2014) studied White teacher candidates and noted that they hid emotions of disgust and lacked authentic care for their students of Color due to their inability to unpack their own whiteness.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11422-017-9854-9

Gatling · 16-11-2020 8:19pm

Oh look here we go again

Gruffalux · 16-11-2020 8:20pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how it is persons who are not transgendered that seem to have the most objection to it?

If you don't have the mental tenacity, or capacity, to comprehend what transsexuals are going through, I fail to see why you are entitled to an opinion on the matter?

By criticizing their existence and demanding that they adhere to their birth identity, or thus facilitate other biological boundaries, you are not fully understanding how a transsexual feels. In brief you couldn't unless you are a transsexual?

I don't understand people who feel it is their right to impose their will or attitude on anyone else's? If you do not understand someone else, you certainly have no right to pass comment on their existence? This world is to be shared, the last time I looked around for a common consensus anyways.

I think people should try to be more kind to others, rather than judging them and trying to itemize them. People deserve more respect, that includes transgenders.

There are plenty of transgendered people who give their opinion on this matter. You can follow them and listen to what they have to say. I have for years.

Examples
https://twitter.com/DebbieHayton
https://twitter.com/ScottNewgent
https://twitter.com/FionneOrlander
https://twitter.com/BuckAngel
https://twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn

You can read about the experiences of people who have experienced transition and then detransitioned here - https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Gervais08 · 16-11-2020 8:21pm

Gatling wrote: »

Oh look here we go again

Pointless trying to do anything tbh.

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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