Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 6:00pm

biko wrote: »

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

SF are far left by almost any definition

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 6:00pm

biko wrote: »

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

SF are far left by almost any definition

FF are moderate left

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 6:00pm

biko wrote: »

Moderate left parties in power
Sinn Fein
Labour
Social Democrats

More extreme left, still in power
Green Party
PBP

Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

SF are far left by almost any definition and far more left wing than the Greens who are relatively centrist on economic matters

FF are moderate left

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 6:03pm

statesaver wrote: »

It did. I wonder why Labour and others want to break from the EU on this issue now.

because like many naval gazing middle class liberals , they just cant help themselves getting behind this issue , its a religious experience , an article of faith like " end DP "

the left are deeply conformist , they need to assure their colleagues that they are devout on the hot button issues

kravmaga · 10-11-2020 6:08pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/labour/status/1325858794920939520

I'm not quite old enough to remember fully but I do recall reading about so-called "boat babies" in the late 90's being a serious issue for the asylum system in this country. Not only people arriving pregnant but apparently some literally giving birth on ferries in Irish waters.

Also just looking at the replies and seen this...

The law was changed by referendum in 2004 (in fact looks like the big decline arrivals started actually in 2003).

I think Irish people might have questions about going back to such a regime.

Anyhow Labour want to do just that.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I don't know but i'd have concerns because I think we are lax enough to be perfectly honest.

It wasn't just on ferries they were arriving 8 months/ nearly full term pregnant, they were flying into airports also.

I was working at Dublin airport in the late 90's and AGS were in charge of all Immigration /booths at that time, they said it was due to a loophole in the law that was being taken advantage of by citizens of various African countries( Nigeria mainly).

I remember Mary Robinson had some doing in the particular legislation letting the free loaders enter Ireland , once the birth was in Ireland, then they got Irish citizenship plus the parents.

http://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/8819/1/1-s2.0-S0277539508000940-main.pdf

thegetawaycar · 10-11-2020 6:09pm

All the main political parties are left or centre left in Ireland, even FG who the far left often demonise as extreme right are quite left leaning in most things.

In very few other countries would you be considered right leaning while increasing Social housing, raising Welfare rates, raising minimum wage and very few if any tax cuts at the same time increasing GP/Medical Cards and public healthcare with a slow move towards Slaintecare.

There's also the non economic side where they are for gay marriage, abortion etc...

The country most definitely needs a centre right party to fill the void.

kravmaga · 10-11-2020 6:35pm

seamus wrote: »

The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

@Seamus, this is complete rubbish what you have said here. Your just generalising with an agenda which smells of a bleeding heart liberal.

I worked for Aer Rianta , now (D.A.A) in Dublin Airport in the late 90's. I had a very good relationship with all key stakeholders such as Customs, GARDA Immigration, Airport Police etc. This is fact and true account of what I observed many times.

There were many times due to the sheer volume of asylum seekers at immigration arrivals , that the facilities were not built to hold the volume being detained for questioning.

Many a time some of the detained persons even escaped from the holding facility in Pier B onto the ramp area with no shoes on , Garda plus Airport Police , Airport Fire Service had to locate them fast due to departing /arriving aircraft on the main runway 10/28.

It was a very busy and chaotic time. And the change was necessary and there was no dis-information doing the rounds.

Unless you worked in a front line public service role dealing with the immigration at the time, what you said above is garbage.:rolleyes:

kravmaga · 10-11-2020 6:42pm

Gatling wrote: »

So they want to bring back the Lagos express , with buses and ambulances taking women in labor straight off a plane to the coombe hospital .

There were no direct flights between Lagos and Dublin airport back then, most of them were arriving via Charles de Gaulle or Schiphol.

Gatling · 10-11-2020 6:50pm

kravmaga wrote: »

There were no direct flights between Lagos and Dublin airport back then, most of them were arriving via Charles de Gaulle or Schiphol.

It was called the Lagos express ,
Especially in the maternity hospitals in Dublin

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 6:52pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I agree with the current law I was just shocked by the 25% figure

Most people are. Which is why the "racist" tag is so easily thrown at people who say it was the right thing to do.

Some people either weren't around then or don't remember it. Of course there will be a minority too that will still say "let everyone in" kind of thing on a philosophical basis but I think that most people who are still under the impression that it was not really a big issue would be shocked to see the 25% figure.

Mullaghteelin · 10-11-2020 6:53pm

Even RTÉ were on to it, albeit focusing on the risks to the mothers involved. From Sep 1th 2003:
Maternity hospitals in 'tragedy' warning

Masters at two of Ireland's largest maternity hospitals say a number of women have almost died in the past few months as they travelled to the country in labour.

There has been a substantial increase in the numbers of women coming to Ireland in the late stages of pregnancy...

Masters of all three Dublin maternity hospitals have held a meeting with officials of the Eastern Regional Health authority and the Department of Justice to discuss what they have described as a 'tragedy waiting to happen'.

kravmaga · 10-11-2020 6:54pm

Gatling wrote: »

It was called the Lagos express ,
Especially in the maternity hospitals in Dublin

I well believe it , the ambulance service at Dublin airport was very busy also.;)

Donald Trump · 10-11-2020 7:00pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Just fix the asylum process so that people don't end up living hear for a decade while their claim is rejected or approved.

Do that and this problem goes away.

That's a separate issue. It does of course need to be fixed but even if it was extremely streamlined, bringing back birthright citizenship would still attract in citizenship tourists.

Even if the asylum could be processed in 2 weeks. You could get a heavily pregnant woman landing in Dublin airport, destroying her passport in the toilets, and presenting herself at immigration claiming she is fleeing persecution from wherever ............. and within that two weeks have given birth.

marieholmfan · 10-11-2020 7:16pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's a separate issue. It does of course need to be fixed but even if it was extremely streamlined, bringing back birthright citizenship would still attract in citizenship tourists.

Even if the asylum could be processed in 2 weeks. You could get a heavily pregnant woman landing in Dublin airport, destroying her passport in the toilets, and presenting herself at immigration claiming she is fleeing persecution from wherever ............. and within that two weeks have given birth.

Great. Keep the kid ; put it up for adoption to a GAY COUPLE (sorry are you TRIGGERED???) and sell the egg donor to the Libyans (money put in trust for the Irish citizen child).

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 7:22pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

this country is overtly left leaning , it always was but it takes the cake this past decade

Was always left leaning. Are we talking about the country that let all its schools be run by the church and locked up young girls for having pre marital sex only allowed divorce and condoms in the 90s because of religious conservatism.

Rubberchikken · 10-11-2020 7:30pm

Multiculturalism isn't working really well in France.
We need to be careful who we admit to our country. It shouldn't be seen as an easy place to get citizenship nor an easy place to gain entry to.

Cirrus Incus · 10-11-2020 7:32pm

There should be a high bar for citizenship. Only productive law abiding members of society who have been living here for years should be eligible.

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 7:34pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

All the main political parties are left or centre left in Ireland, even FG who the far left often demonise as extreme right are quite left leaning in most things.

In very few other countries would you be considered right leaning while increasing Social housing, raising Welfare rates, raising minimum wage and very few if any tax cuts at the same time increasing GP/Medical Cards and public healthcare with a slow move towards Slaintecare.

There's also the non economic side where they are for gay marriage, abortion etc...

The country most definitely needs a centre right party to fill the void.

unlikely to happen until something approaching a conservative media outlet emerges , as a people we are too eager to appear respectable and anything but centre left just isnt respectable in ireland

Arthur Daley · 10-11-2020 7:34pm

Fake left strikes again

breezy1985 · 10-11-2020 7:37pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHa Fine Gael are left wing. Loopers the lot of ye

Mad_maxx · 10-11-2020 7:41pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Was always left leaning. Are we talking about the country that let all its schools be run by the church and locked up young girls for having pre marital sex only allowed divorce and condoms in the 90s because of religious conservatism.

a country can be socially - religously conservative and left leaning at the same time

irish people like the government to do stuff for them , always have

fly_agaric · 10-11-2020 7:50pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

It was only added to the constitution in the late 90's and was an entirely unintended consequence of the Good Friday agreement. The purpose of the referendum was only to remove it as a constitutional right. That allows it to be controlled by legislation. Children of people who are in the country legally generally obtain citizenship.

It is not about "accepting migrants" as you say, because if the migrant is "accepted" then their child will get citizenship! It is a completely different point.

Other countries which have Jus soli generally do not have the associated benefits extending to the family the same as in Ireland/Europe. If you moved to the US for a year or two to work and had a child then that child is a US citizen. If your work and visa finishes then you have to leave the country. The child is always a citizen. It generally confers no real rights to you - despite the usage of the "anchor baby" term. When the child is 18 it could go back to the US and petition for you to join it. But there is no such thing as landing off a boat to the US, straight to hospital, have a baby and leave the hospital and be put into accommodation and welfare supports. There are wealthy Chinese women who do take advantage of the US system but it is just so their baby has the citizenship. They fly in, go to an expensive hospital, then return to China afterwards. What we had were wealthy (relative to their peers), generally African, woman who saw a loophole and were able to exploit it and then get on the pigs back for a relatively handy life in Europe.

You also need to remember that Irish citizenship is European citizenship. We cannot be the only outlier and leaving a back door open. It was crazy at the time. Maternity hospitals were literally being packed with woman who had only entered the country to give birth. Plenty were coming off the boat from the UK etc. just as they were about to pop!

Thanks for that trip down memory lane. Your points about difference between what was happening here at that time and what happens in US with their birth citizenship were key to the argument.
I also remember Michael McDowell (justice minister I think) being caricatured as some sort of Nazi gaulieter by those opposed to the referendum + the "disappointment" with us all by the likes of the Irish Times when it was (unsurprisingly!) overwhelmingly passed.
It was a completely crazy situation as you say with people showing up to have their Irish/EU baby; wanting to go back to that regime would be even madder. Labour should have more sense IMO if they want people to vote for them again. It doesn't matter if a lot of their party members are still sore over it.

Wibbs · 10-11-2020 8:12pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Was always left leaning. Are we talking about the country that let all its schools be run by the church and locked up young girls for having pre marital sex only allowed divorce and condoms in the 90s because of religious conservatism.

As MM notes there's a difference between socially and politically. Yes Ireland and her politics were conservative, on the other hand do you think subsidised by tax free education, health, housing and social welfare are right wing? These were in play from very early on in an independent Ireland.

Galwayguy35 · 10-11-2020 8:25pm

Howlins brain is as small as the rest of him it seems.

Anyone who wants to bring back automatic citizenship is an idiot.

Yurt2 · 10-11-2020 8:29pm

biko wrote: »

In one high-profile case, Eric Zhi Ying Xue – a nine-year-old from Bray, Co Wicklow – faced removal from the state despite having been here for his entire life.

Asked whether they were considering an amnesty for any of those affected by the citizenship referendum, the Department of Justice said that the EU had said cases would be dealt with on a case-by-case approach as opposed to any “mass regularisation”.

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-rights-irish-born-children-4475530-Feb2019/

Deportation order against him was lifted last year
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1217/1101717-deportation-order-against-wicklow-schoolboy-lifted/

Indeed, I'm aware the deportation order was lifted. However, the offense that the mother committed was an extremely serious one in my book, that of passport fraud. She was lucky she didn't serve time and she can't have any complaints about her deportation order. In any other country she would have been dealt the same hand on foot of that behaviour. That her child was caught up in it was unfortunate but I still think the deportation should have been carried out. There was all sorts of guff floating around that he was stateless, which was and is a falsehood. She could waltz in to the Chinese embassy and get a passport for her son tomorrow if she wished. Also conspicuous by his absence in the story is the father of the child, who is doubtless an overstayer living under the radar in Ireland.

mikemac2 · 10-11-2020 9:18pm

Did my leaving cert at 17 and started in a local factory and joined SIPTU and the Labour Party

Young stupid me believed the Labour Party supported workers

More fool me, they care more about right-on fashionable causes and workers who have established rights and can pay regular dues than workers who need support

Mary Harney did more for low waged workers than the Labour Party ever did

Galwayguy35 · 10-11-2020 9:19pm

Its a far cry from the party Jim Larkin founded.

Gervais08 · 10-11-2020 9:43pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Its a far cry from the party Jim Larkin founded.

From the same neck of the woods as my dear sainted mother was Big Jim.

Both old school Labour who would shudder what the party was now.

Francie Barrett · 10-11-2020 9:59pm

Historically, I would have given Labour a second preference in elections, after reading this, never again.

L1011 · 10-11-2020 10:08pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Historically, I would have given Labour a second preference in elections, after reading this, never again.

Even though its an entirely unchanged position since the original referendum?

screamer · 10-11-2020 10:09pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This is why our nation should be basically closed to anyone outside the EU coming here without work sponsorship and a 10 year social welfare ban.

If we don’t cop on to how over generous and under funded our welfare system is going to become soon, with less workers propping up more recipients, there’ll be nothing much for anyone.

kildare lad · 10-11-2020 10:23pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Historically, I would have given Labour a second preference in elections, after reading this, never again.

What about when they tried to force the water charges on the Irish people ???

Francie Barrett · 10-11-2020 10:30pm

seamus wrote: »

The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

This is not true though.

Support for racist organisations back in 2004 was non-existent. The biggest movement in favour at the time was the Immigration Control Platform. They ran in elections, they got no votes. They organised rallies, no one attended. That organisation folded after a few years due to a complete lack of interest, nothing replaced it.

The 2004 referendum that was proposed by FF/PD's and was due to an organic groundswell of popular opinion that our citizenship laws were being taken advantage of. While there was certainly some hysteria and wild claims, the number of asylum applications did bear that out the concerns of the people.

To call the amendment "unnecessary" is also untrue. The chart plotting the collapse in asylum cases in the aftermath of the referendum is testament to that. The amendment looks like a simple and popular change that did what it needed to do.

Richard Hillman · 10-11-2020 10:59pm

Remember the days when the media actually covered things like anchor babies? If it was happening now, there would be a blind eye turned to it and anyone that raised it would be a Far-Right Neo Fascist.

We are Governed by NGOs now. When Labour got into power everyone thought it was going to be the workers unions that would be better off. It was actually the NGOs that got the abundance of funding. Now the NGOs dictate policy and government align their policy with some biased "studies" or research that the NGOs create.

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 9:05am

kildare lad wrote: »

What about when they tried to force the water charges on the Irish people ???

That was a sound position, government should have held the line

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 9:08am

Francie Barrett wrote: »

This is not true though.

Support for racist organisations back in 2004 was non-existent. The biggest movement in favour at the time was the Immigration Control Platform. They ran in elections, they got no votes. They organised rallies, no one attended. That organisation folded after a few years due to a complete lack of interest, nothing replaced it.

The 2004 referendum that was proposed by FF/PD's and was due to an organic groundswell of popular opinion that our citizenship laws were being taken advantage of. While there was certainly some hysteria and wild claims, the number of asylum applications did bear that out the concerns of the people.

To call the amendment "unnecessary" is also untrue. The chart plotting the collapse in asylum cases in the aftermath of the referendum is testament to that. The amendment looks like a simple and popular change that did what it needed to do.

Good post but one thing I'd point out

Support for racist orgs is non existent today too

Yamanoto · 11-11-2020 10:47am

seamus wrote: »

The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

All three masters of the Dublin maternity hospitals made strong representations for there to be a change in the law.

They were alarmed by the increasing numbers of mothers presenting in late stages of pregnancy, with associated heightened risk to the health of the mother and neonates and the considerable burden such arrivals placed on staff and services to provide appropriate levels of care.

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 11:04am

Yamanoto wrote: »

All three masters of the Dublin maternity hospitals made strong representations for there to be a change in the law.

They were alarmed by the increasing numbers of mothers presenting in late stages of pregnancy, with associated heightened risk to the health of the mother and neonates and the considerable burden such arrivals placed on staff and services to provide appropriate levels of care.

adherence to the creed of political correctness demands the adherent be wilfully blind to certain realties and all negatives when it relates to minority groups

some examples

1. travellers are victims of settled peoples prejudice

2. everyone in DP left their home country to escape war and famine

3. an increase in the immigrant population has no correlation with increased housing demand or service demand

4. the birth right rule had no effect on people arriving on a plane and heading straight to the rotunda

WhenPigsCry · 11-11-2020 11:06am

Personally I'm sceptical about these claims that plane loads of pregnant women were an issue, and it will take much more compelling evidence than one online media report from the time that cites no source other than these Mater guys to persuade me otherwise.

But leaving that aside, the current clause is very restrictive. People keep going on about heavily pregnant women arriving in Ireland for the first time. What about children born non-Irish citizens ordinarily resident in Ireland? If say a Polish couple settled in Ireland years have a child, surely that child should be granted Irish citizenship?

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 11:08am

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

The current clause is very restrictive. People keep going on about heavily pregnant women arriving in Ireland for the first time. What about children born non-Irish citizens ordinarily resident in Ireland? If say a Polish couple settled in Ireland years have a child, surely that child should be granted Irish citizenship?

no one has ever been deported as a consequence but overturning the 2004 referendum would lead to an influx of people

seamus · 11-11-2020 11:09am

Francie Barrett wrote: »

To call the amendment "unnecessary" is also untrue. The chart plotting the collapse in asylum cases in the aftermath of the referendum is testament to that. The amendment looks like a simple and popular change that did what it needed to do.

Numbers changing when you do something doesn't mean the change was necessary.

WhenPigsCry · 11-11-2020 11:10am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

no one has ever been deported as a consequence but overturning the 2004 referendum would lead to an influx of people

Citizenship confers more than the right to not be deported. Why should a child born in Ireland, to parents long settled and living in Ireland, be denied citizenship at birth?

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 11:18am

seamus wrote: »

Numbers changing when you do something doesn't mean the change was necessary.

giving yourself plenty of broad scope there

mohawk · 11-11-2020 11:19am

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

Personally I'm sceptical about these claims that plane loads of pregnant women were an issue, and it will take much more compelling evidence than one online media report from the time that cites no source other than these Mater guys to persuade me otherwise.

But leaving that aside, the current clause is very restrictive. People keep going on about heavily pregnant women arriving in Ireland for the first time. What about children born non-Irish citizens ordinarily resident in Ireland? If say a Polish couple settled in Ireland years have a child, surely that child should be granted Irish citizenship?

If a Polish couple are having a child in Ireland the child is an EU citizen. Also more importantly there is a way to become an Irish citizen which, thousands of people a year go through.

timmyntc · 11-11-2020 11:20am

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

Citizenship confers more than the right to not be deported. Why should a child born in Ireland, to parents long settled and living in Ireland, be denied citizenship at birth?

See below

A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. A child born in Ireland to a parent who has been granted refugee status is also automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

This is already legislated for - if your parents have residency here & you are born in Ireland, you are entitled to citizenship.
There is no need to go for blanket citizenship for all born here in all circumstances - it is overkill, and the only people it benefits are those who would like to give birth here for an easy path to citizenship.

All the other scenarios are already covered.

WhenPigsCry · 11-11-2020 11:22am

mohawk wrote: »

If a Polish couple are having a child in Ireland the child is an EU citizen. Also more importantly there is a way to become an Irish citizen which, thousands of people a year go through.

So what? Why shouldn't she be an Irish citizen? An EU citizen does not enjoy all the same rights as an Irish one.

WhenPigsCry · 11-11-2020 11:23am

timmyntc wrote: »

See below

This is already legislated for - if your parents have residency here & you are born in Ireland, you are entitled to citizenship.
There is no need to go for blanket citizenship for all born here in all circumstances - it is overkill, and the only people it benefits are those who would like to give birth here for an easy path to citizenship.

All the other scenarios are already covered.

No, it doesn't cover it. That is just to cover British \ Northern Irish scenarios.

And anyhow, we can expand this to non EU citizens. How about an American or Australian couple who have been living and working here long term?

seamus · 11-11-2020 11:24am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

giving yourself plenty of broad scope there

It's called "Begging the question."

"This change was necessary, because it changed things. The fact that things changed, proves that the change was needed."

A constitutional change was unnecessary. But as it was an easy populist win, they went that route instead of introducing legislative changes that would reduce these numbers.

There's a question about whether reducing these numbers was even necessary, but nevertheless if the goal was to reduce these numbers, then a consitutional referendum was unnecessary.

Mad_maxx · 11-11-2020 11:24am

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

Citizenship confers more than the right to not be deported. Why should a child born in Ireland, to parents long settled and living in Ireland, be denied citizenship at birth?

that child wont be deported , the referendum in 2004 was about preventing citizenship being granted to babies born an extremely short time after their parents arrived and subsequently the parents or parent being granted citizenship as a consequence

timmyntc · 11-11-2020 11:26am

WhenPigsCry wrote: »

No, it doesn't cover it. That is just to cover British \ Northern Irish scenarios.

or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency.

If you have no restriction on your residency in Ireland your child can claim Irish citizenship if they're born here.
It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

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