Council Inspection for HAP

mr_cochise · 04-02-2019 10:22pm #1

Hi all,
the following is from the council's report of our rented property inspection... "Sitting room has a heat producing appliance. Change vent cover from open/close to one which is permanently fixed in an open position."

The room in question has an open fire place. There is no wall vent but there are vents in the windows. House built in 2008.
I cannot find the specific requirements in the regulations.

Any thoughts?

Gumbo · 04-02-2019 11:28pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Hi all,
the following is from the council's report of our rented property inspection... "Sitting room has a heat producing appliance. Change vent cover from open/close to one which is permanently fixed in an open position."

The room in question has an open fire place. There is no wall vent but there are vents in the windows. House built in 2008.
I cannot find the specific requirements in the regulations.

Any thoughts?

Technical Guidance Document Part J and Part F.

Askthe EA · 05-02-2019 3:41pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Hi all,
the following is from the council's report of our rented property inspection... "Sitting room has a heat producing appliance. Change vent cover from open/close to one which is permanently fixed in an open position."

The room in question has an open fire place. There is no wall vent but there are vents in the windows. House built in 2008.
I cannot find the specific requirements in the regulations.

Any thoughts?

Need to get a vent hole bored through the wall.

Rows Grower · 05-02-2019 3:49pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Hi all,
the following is from the council's report of our rented property inspection... "Sitting room has a heat producing appliance. Change vent cover from open/close to one which is permanently fixed in an open position."

The room in question has an open fire place. There is no wall vent but there are vents in the windows. House built in 2008.
I cannot find the specific requirements in the regulations.

Any thoughts?

Contact the person that signed the letter and they will gladly explain exactly what it is you have to do. They no more want to be calling back and forth to your rented property than you do.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2019 3:49pm

There is already a vent hole bored. It is just the internal cover needs to be changed for one that isn't closable. Shoudl cost about a tenner.

However, in my experience the closable vent covers as usually so flimsy and wobbly that they might as well be fully open while in the "closed" position.

emeldc · 05-02-2019 3:55pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Hi all,
the following is from the council's report of our rented property inspection... "Sitting room has a heat producing appliance. Change vent cover from open/close to one which is permanently fixed in an open position."

The room in question has an open fire place. There is no wall vent but there are vents in the windows. House built in 2008.
I cannot find the specific requirements in the regulations.

Any thoughts?

Yea, sounds like the vent just has to be one that's open all the time.
I had an inspection about 15 months ago and was issued with a list of nonsense that was going to cost well over €1k. I ignored it and haven't heard from them since.

Aye Bosun · 05-02-2019 3:58pm

I had something similar not with the HAP scheme but with SEAI grant scheme when i got external insulation installed..the SEAI inspector said that vent in the sitting was not ok because it could be closed. All that it needed to pass was for a screw to be fitted to keep the vent from being closed. I did it myself right in front of the inspector and he passed it there and then..easy fix!

mr_cochise · 05-02-2019 9:07pm

Thank you all of your input.
The tenant is not too keen on a new vent hole. She has seen one in a neighbour's house and it lets in a lot of noise from the estate outside.

punisher5112 · 05-02-2019 9:09pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Thank you all of your input.
The tenant is not too keen on a new vent hole. She has seen one in a neighbour's house and it lets in a lot of noise from the estate outside.

You can get inserts that help prevent wind noise and other sounds.

emeldc · 05-02-2019 9:10pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

Thank you all of your input.
The tenant is not too keen on a new vent hole. She has seen one in a neighbour's house and it lets in a lot of noise from the estate outside.

Unfortunately that’s not your problem. Tell the tenant to take it up with the council.

mr_cochise · 05-02-2019 9:13pm

emeldc wrote:

Yea, sounds like the vent just has to be one that's open all the time. I had an inspection about 15 months ago and was issued with a list of nonsense that was going to cost well over â‚¬1k. I ignored it and haven't heard from them since.

A colleague of mine said he also ignored it about 2 years ago and there was no further noise about it.

There are a few other minor items on the report that I don't mind doing, ie, window restrictors and putting the fire blanket in a more prominent place. These are clearly spelled out in the regs.
It was just that the regs are not so specific on the ventilation.

emeldc · 05-02-2019 9:24pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

A colleague of mine said he also ignored it about 2 years ago and there was no further noise about it.

There are a few other minor items on the report that I don't mind doing, ie, window restrictors and putting the fire blanket in a more prominent place. These are clearly spelled out in the regs.
It was just that the regs are not so specific on the ventilation.

In my case one of the things needed was a expelair fan in the kitchen. The problem is it’s not on an outside wall so the vent would need to go through the bathroom and one of the bedrooms. This requirement is not in the regs for a private tenant, just a hap tenant because the freeloaders are special. I’ve a pain in me hoop with the system and hopefully by next year I’ll be in a position to sell up and be shut of the whole fiasco. Sorry for the rant

mr_cochise · 05-02-2019 9:35pm

punisher5112 wrote:

You can get inserts that help prevent wind noise and other sounds.

emeldc wrote:

In my case one of the things needed was a expelair fan in the kitchen. The problem is itâ€™s not on an outside wall so the vent would need to go through the bathroom and one of the bedrooms. This requirement is not in the regs for a private tenant, just a hap tenant because the freeloaders are special. Iâ€™ve a pain in me hoop with the system and hopefully by next year Iâ€™ll be in a position to sell up and be shut of the whole fiasco. Sorry for the rant

I totally understand where you're coming from. I look after that house and any issues have always been dealt with in a timely manner. The ventilation in the living room was fine for me for 5 years when I lived there.
I should be ready to bail out in about 3 years myself.

L1011 · 06-02-2019 10:38am

emeldc wrote: »

the freeloaders are special.

This language is unacceptable and against the forum charter

ImARebel · 10-02-2019 9:17am

I'm beginning to **** myself. We've a tenant, he asked would we accept HAP as he's now entitled to it. We said OK not knowing we can get landed with a list a mile long of "improvements"

Apartment is in great condition, maintained annually and tenant never wants for anything repair wise or anything.

I'm seriously worried as we don't have the cash for all of this

What happens if you don't do the repairs. Is it as simple as not being eligible for HAP?

Grumpypants · 10-02-2019 10:10am

ImARebel wrote: »

I'm beginning to **** myself. We've a tenant, he asked would we accept HAP as he's now entitled to it. We said OK not knowing we can get landed with a list a mile long of "improvements"

Apartment is in great condition, maintained annually and tenant never wants for anything repair wise or anything.

I'm seriously worried as we don't have the cash for all of this

What happens if you don't do the repairs. Is it as simple as not being eligible for HAP?

If it's a newish and well looked after apartment. You should be fine. At most they will want a fire blanket or something small like that.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:13am

ImARebel wrote: »

I'm beginning to **** myself. We've a tenant, he asked would we accept HAP as he's now entitled to it. We said OK not knowing we can get landed with a list a mile long of "improvements"

Apartment is in great condition, maintained annually and tenant never wants for anything repair wise or anything.

I'm seriously worried as we don't have the cash for all of this

What happens if you don't do the repairs. Is it as simple as not being eligible for HAP?

I think I remember seeing something on my letter saying if the repairs were not carried out that the property would be blacklisted as unfit for renting or something along those lines. Try and keep getting the rent off him while the application goes through. They don’t pay arrears and will even use the deposit held by you as part of the rent due. In my case the tenant ended up €1100 in arrears with no deposit. And HAP couldn’t give a fcuk.

Pkiernan · 10-02-2019 10:19am

Ventilation requirements are important, have real legal implications if not met, and identical for HAP and non HAP tenants alike.

Ignore ventilation requirements at your peril.

You're on written notice from the Council.
If your tenant lights a fire and the chimney is not venting right, there's a real chance of carbon monoxide issues.
Put a CO detector in that room too.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:32am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Ventilation requirements are important, have real legal implications if not met, and identical for HAP and non HAP tenants alike.

Ignore ventilation requirements at your peril.

You're on written notice from the Council.
If your tenant lights a fire and the chimney is not venting right, there's a real chance of carbon monoxide issues.
Put a CO detector in that room too.

The kitchen ventilation requirements for local authority tenants or housing are greater than those required by private tenants. Is it that HAP tenants are more likely to poison themselves with the smell of their own cooking. It doesn't relate to carbon monoxide in this instance.

Del2005 · 10-02-2019 10:33am

emeldc wrote: »

I think I remember seeing something on my letter saying if the repairs were not carried out that the property would be blacklisted as unfit for renting or something along those lines. Try and keep getting the rent off him while the application goes through. They don’t pay arrears and will even use the deposit held by you as part of the rent due. In my case the tenant ended up €1100 in arrears with no deposit. And HAP couldn’t give a fcuk.

Since it's illegal to discriminate against HAP, but HAP insist on applying building regulations not required for a property. Could a landlord ask for a HAP inspection before getting tenants to see how much it will cost to bring it up to HAP standard? They could then decide if they want to get blacklisted or not before they have tenants and could legally refuse HAP.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:37am

Del2005 wrote: »

Since it's illegal to discriminate against HAP, but HAP insist on applying building regulations not required for a property. Could a landlord ask for a HAP inspection before getting tenants to see how much it will cost to bring it up to HAP standard? They could then decide if they want to get blacklisted or not before they have tenants and could legally refuse HAP.

Not sure but I doubt it. Sure you need a tax clearance cert as well. If you haven’t got one I don’t think they allow you to use that as an excuse either. ie the tenant stays but you don’t get paid until you produce the cert.

ImARebel · 10-02-2019 10:49am

Grumpypants wrote: »

If it's a newish and well looked after apartment. You should be fine. At most they will want a fire blanket or something small like that.

We supplied a fire extinguisher maybe I need to get a fire blanket too then

ImARebel · 10-02-2019 10:50am

emeldc wrote: »

I think I remember seeing something on my letter saying if the repairs were not carried out that the property would be blacklisted as unfit for renting or something along those lines. Try and keep getting the rent off him while the application goes through. They don’t pay arrears and will even use the deposit held by you as part of the rent due. In my case the tenant ended up €1100 in arrears with no deposit. And HAP couldn’t give a fcuk.

He's a great tenant (hence the reason we didn't want to lose him) he actually over paid in that he paid for the month Hap paid so we'd to refund him.

I've no worries on that front. At least not at the moment

Gumbo · 10-02-2019 10:54am

emeldc wrote: »

The kitchen ventilation requirements for local authority tenants or housing are greater than those required by private tenants. Is it that HAP tenants are more likely to poison themselves with the smell of their own cooking. It doesn't relate to carbon monoxide in this instance.

ventilation requirements are set out in Part F of the building regulations.
Ventilation is required to keep the building fresh, free from mould and to provide a clean air environment for the dwellings inhabitants.

CO is a totally different issue and ventilation some doesn’t aid in this area, hence the requirement for CO alarm in certain areas.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:58am

kceire wrote: »

ventilation requirements are set out in Part F of the building regulations.
Ventilation is required to keep the building fresh, free from mould and to provide a clean air environment for the dwellings inhabitants.

CO is a totally different issue and ventilation some doesn’t aid in this area, hence the requirement for CO alarm in certain areas.

My apartment meets the building regs. The minimum standards for renting differ between private and HAP tenants.

GGTrek · 10-02-2019 1:56pm

ImARebel wrote: »

We supplied a fire extinguisher maybe I need to get a fire blanket too then

Fire extinguisher is not needed, fire blanket is required by current regs for renting.

Pkiernan · 10-02-2019 2:07pm

emeldc wrote: »

My apartment meets the building regs. The minimum standards for renting differ between private and HAP tenants.

With regards to ventilation there is no difference.

Minimum landlord obligations detailed here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html#l629ff

Del2005 · 10-02-2019 2:14pm

emeldc wrote: »

Not sure but I doubt it. Sure you need a tax clearance cert as well. If you haven’t got one I don’t think they allow you to use that as an excuse either. ie the tenant stays but you don’t get paid until you produce the cert.

Once the tenant, or council, does not pay the rent you can start eviction proceedings. Granted that you will be a while evicting them but you would then be blacklisted by HAP so couldn't except another HAP tenant.

Similarly since it appears that no building over 5 years old meets HAP requirements and the government cannot force someone to meet higher standards than applied at the time of construction. Could the landlord state that the building does not meet HAP requirements and will not be brought up to their standard. I live in an apartment so if I was to ever rent it out I can't make alterations, as I don't own the walls, so I couldn't make it HAP compliment so why waste everyone's time.

antoinolachtnai · 10-02-2019 3:23pm

What are these special HAP rules? These are just the standards for renter dwellings surely?

ImARebel · 10-02-2019 4:18pm

GGTrek wrote: »

Fire extinguisher is not needed, fire blanket is required by current regs for renting.

Cheers I'll invest in one

massy086 · 10-02-2019 6:11pm

mr_cochise wrote: »

A colleague of mine said he also ignored it about 2 years ago and there was no further noise about it.

There are a few other minor items on the report that I don't mind doing, ie, window restrictors and putting the fire blanket in a more prominent place. These are clearly spelled out in the regs.
It was just that the regs are not so specific on the ventilation.

make Sure the window restrictor are the non locking with a key type as the won't accept these.

Old diesel · 10-02-2019 8:18pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What are these special HAP rules? These are just the standards for renter dwellings surely?

The HAP inspectors seem according to people who have had inspections for HAP - insist on things like ventilation been up to 2018 building regs.

A key issue appears to be that HAP inspectors want wall ventilation in each room. So to comply - you'd have to spend a lot of money to drill holes for this ventilation.

Whats not clear is whether there are specific official guidelines or rules saying that all HAP properties must hit 2018 regs.

Or if this is inspectors going over the top in their application of the rules.

There is a 22 page checklist apparently.

Further clarification is needed as the justification for 2018 regs needs to be explained.

Gileadi · 10-02-2019 8:47pm

Link here to the hap inspection guidelines https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/guidelines_for_housing_authorities_-_minimum_standards_in_rented_accomodation_2017_%281%29.pdf

antoinolachtnai · 10-02-2019 8:58pm

It’s laid down in legislation. It’s the same standard as for all accommodation. The requirement is for ‘adequate ventilation’.

They can’t hold you to a new building standard.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 9:01pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

With regards to ventilation there is no difference.

Minimum landlord obligations detailed here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html#l629ff

I’ve highlighted the bits I’m talking about.

They must also provide facilities for cooking and for the hygienic storage of food, to include the following:

4-ring hob with oven and grill
Cooker hood or extractor fan
Fridge and freezer, or a fridge-freezer
Microwave oven
Kitchen cupboards that are suitable and adequate for storing food
Sink with mains water supply, hot water and draining area

For dwellings rented from local authorities and approved housing bodies, the relevant requirements are in Article 7 of the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993. This Article requires the landlord to provide facilities for:

Installation of cooking equipment with provision, where necessary, for the safe and effective removal of fumes
Hygienic storage of food

My appt has a cooker with filtered hood. It is not on an outside wall and so an expelair type fan cannot be fitted. But the kitchen/dining room is open plan and has plenty of other outside wall ventilation. Not good enough for the hap man unfortunately but as you can read for yourself, perfectly ok for a private tenant. By the way they also asked for an ‘ECTI’ cert and an equivalent gas cert. These alone can cost between €300-€500 each. Even my insurance company don’t look for them.

antoinolachtnai · 10-02-2019 9:16pm

He isn’t a HAP man. He’s an inspector for the local authority. He applies the same criteria to non-HAP accommodation.

What exactly did his report say? The exact words matter.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 9:33pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He isn’t a HAP man. He’s an inspector for the local authority. He applies the same criteria to non-HAP accommodation.

What exactly did his report say? The exact words matter.

Ok, I’ll try again.
The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.

antoinolachtnai · 10-02-2019 10:07pm

There is nothing wrong with your setup. Did you ask the inspector where the legislation provided for this requirement?

Mad_maxx · 10-02-2019 10:09pm

Old diesel wrote: »

The HAP inspectors seem according to people who have had inspections for HAP - insist on things like ventilation been up to 2018 building regs.

A key issue appears to be that HAP inspectors want wall ventilation in each room. So to comply - you'd have to spend a lot of money to drill holes for this ventilation.

Whats not clear is whether there are specific official guidelines or rules saying that all HAP properties must hit 2018 regs.

Or if this is inspectors going over the top in their application of the rules.

There is a 22 page checklist apparently.

Further clarification is needed as the justification for 2018 regs needs to be explained.

Drilling holes in a wall for ventilation is not expensive, I own a century old stone built house which I have leased to the council for ten years, I was not going to drill through stone so fitted trickle vents on the windows, council inspector would not accept trickle vents so I fitted vented slates on the roof and piped in through the attic with Duct pipe into the bedrooms, eventually the cold outside air will result in a damp attic but the council have no common sense

Council had no choice but accept trickle vents down stairs

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:16pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with your setup. Did you ask the inspector where the legislation provided for this requirement?

Nope. I didn’t have the funds to carry out any work at the time as I had lost out on nearly 3 months rent while waiting for the application to go through, so I said I’d wait until I got a follow up letter. It hasn’t arrived yet. The appt was inspected in June '17, and I was notified around November '17.

_Brian · 10-02-2019 10:21pm

You can pop off the inner cover on the trickle vents and remove the damper, refit the cover and there you go, ventilation permanently open.

Jimbob1977 · 10-02-2019 10:23pm

Sounds like you have received the Notice of Works.

You are supposed to remedy the situation in x number of weeks.

If they reinspect and the defect is not repaired, you might get a Notification Letter (gentle reminder) or an Improvement Notice (a bit more stern).

Then it depends on the Council's resources and if the tenant complains. Most Councils don't have the manpower to keep on inspecting over and over again. You can play the long game.

However, it won't be forgotten about.

You will probably have to fix it eventually.

A Prohibtion Notice would be the ultimate sanction. You wouldn't be able to let again under HAP.

emeldc · 10-02-2019 10:34pm

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Sounds like you have received the Notice of Works.

You are supposed to remedy the situation in x number of weeks.

If they reinspect and the defect is not repaired, you might get a Notification Letter (gentle reminder) or an Improvement Notice (a bit more stern).

Then it depends on the Council's resources and if the tenant complains. Most Councils don't have the manpower to keep on inspecting over and over again. You can play the long game.

However, it won't be forgotten about.

You will probably have to fix it eventually.

A Prohibtion Notice would be the ultimate sanction. You wouldn't be able to let again under HAP.

Yea, I’ve no doubt they’ll come back to me on it. I deal with it when they do. My understanding of the prohibition notice was that it was across the board, not just for a Hap rental although you’d wonder how they would enforce it on a private rental.

KneonK · 12-02-2019 11:17am

emeldc wrote: »

Ok, I’ll try again.
The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.

Hi I can offer clarification. The need for it to go to external air IS in fact from the private rented regulations. Not some mystical HAP standards. Thr wording from The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 is:
Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes TO THE EXTERNAL AIR by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan.

There is only one set of regulations regarding housing standards. The crap that people spout about special rules for HAP tenants is misleading, wrong and possibly harmful. The issue is that a HAP property has to be inspected within a certain time frame and is therefore prioritised.
With current resources and the amount of HAP coming online, it makes it less and less likely that a non HAP property will be inspected.

Rows Grower · 12-02-2019 11:50am

emeldc wrote: »

Ok, I’ll try again.
The minimum standards for rental accommodation state;
Cooker hood OR extractor fan. So a private tenant would have no issue with either of these.
In my appt The cooker hood and filter is not acceptable to the inspector (sorry if I offended you by calling him the HAP man) because technically the fumes are not being extracted by a fan. I can’t remember the exact wording and I don’t have the letter handy.

The filter in the hood just needs to be changed, costs about 3-4 euro and takes about 2 minutes.

emeldc · 12-02-2019 12:20pm

KneonK wrote: »

Hi I can offer clarification. The need for it to go to external air IS in fact from the private rented regulations. Not some mystical HAP standards. Thr wording from The Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 is:
Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes TO THE EXTERNAL AIR by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan.

There is only one set of regulations regarding housing standards. The crap that people spout about special rules for HAP tenants is misleading, wrong and possibly harmful. The issue is that a HAP property has to be inspected within a certain time frame and is therefore prioritised.
With current resources and the amount of HAP coming online, it makes it less and less likely that a non HAP property will be inspected.

Have a look at the highlighted sections in post #35 again. If they're not different, then why do they specify that one is min standards for rental accommodation and the other is min standards for local authority tenants/housing.

Rows Grower wrote: »

The filter in the hood just needs to be changed, costs about 3-4 euro and takes about 2 minutes.

I'll pm the inspectors number and you can explain that to him.

KneonK · 12-02-2019 12:39pm

Oh I see the confusion, I can explain that too!

That doesn't refer to HAP or Private rented tenants.
It's a different derogation purely for people receiving housing under exceptional circumstances such as those housed by an approved body like FOCUS or Stepping stone etc or directly by the council.

It wouldn't apply to this situation.

emeldc · 12-02-2019 12:50pm

KneonK wrote: »

Oh I see the confusion, I can explain that too!

That doesn't refer to HAP or Private rented tenants.
It's a different derogation purely for people receiving housing under exceptional circumstances such as those housed by an approved body like FOCUS or Stepping stone etc or directly by the council.

It wouldn't apply to this situation.

I'm not with you. I'm quoting the Minimum Standards for Rented Accommodation in Ireland. What other standards are there?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

Rows Grower · 12-02-2019 12:59pm

emeldc wrote: »

Have a look at the highlighted sections in post #35 again. If they're not different, then why do they specify that one is min standards for rental accommodation and the other is min standards for local authority tenants/housing.

I'll pm the inspectors number and you can explain that to him.

I'd be confident he doesn't need that explained to him.

emeldc · 12-02-2019 1:08pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd be confident he doesn't need that explained to him.

He obviously does if all you think I need to do is change the filter in the hood :pac:

Rows Grower · 12-02-2019 1:21pm

emeldc wrote: »

He obviously does if all you think I need to do is change the filter in the hood :pac:

I just read back and see that your cooker is not on an external wall. Lol.

Council Inspection for HAP

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