Jamal Khashoggi disappearance

23-10-2018 10:44am

live from Erdogan

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/oct/23/jamal-khashoggi-death-erdogan-turkish-parliament-live

So Erdogan copped out - no mention of the audio or video recordings. The story will peter out now - politics took over in the end as usual - Erdogan could have exploded the whole facade.

“I do not doubt the sincerity of King Salman. That being said, independent investigation needs to be carried out. This is a political killing”

- That’s huge from Erdoğan. Doesn’t mention MbS’s innocence or have faith in Saudi investigation

Erdoğan’s address has made it crystal clear that the murder of Jamal Khashoggi was a premeditated and meticulously planned political assassination. He mentioned that reconnaissance teams went as far as scouting forest areas near Istanbul.

Erdoğan’s speech carried a strong implication that the Turkish president does not think MbS is innocent in this case, writes our Turkey and Middle East correspondent, Bethan McKernan. Erdoğan also wants Turkey to conduct the criminal investigation.

The Guardian’s Middle East editor, Martin Chulov, writes:

There were few new details in Erdogan’s speech, which fell short of the expectations he himself had set by claiming it would reveal the “full naked truth” behind Jamal Khashoggi’s death.

A team of three people arrived from Riyadh on October 1, the day before the disappearance, and scouted a forest near Istanbul. The implication is that the three men were looking for a place to discard Khashoggi’s remains.

The 18 people arrested by Riyadh included all those who Turkey had named as assassins, as well as three other men, whose identities have not been revealed.

Erdogan made no reference to audio or video recordings, which would be deeply damaging to Saudi leaders.

He asked for the 18 men to be tried in Istanbul. Throughout his address, he remained deferential to King Salman, and made no mention of embattled Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

OleRodrigo · 23-10-2018 11:33am

If everyone knows the recordings exist, it puts him in a very strong position

josip · 23-10-2018 11:54am

He can probably extract the maximum value from them up to the point when he releases them to the public, which he may never will while he's in power.
MBS will always be looking over his shoulder and will be much more restricted about what he can do regionally.
The best outcome for Erdogan is for MBS to remain in power, but to have to think before every political action whether Erdogan would approve.

Timberrrrrrrr · 23-10-2018 7:45pm

Just seen this
'Remains found' in search for missing journalist

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-sources-jamal-khashoggis-body-parts-found-11533202

Jamal Khashoggi: Saudi journalist's body parts found, say Sky sources
19:35, UK,

Body parts belonging to murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi have been found, according to two Sky sources.

The sources have told Sky News the Saudi dissident had been "cut up" and his face "disfigured".

One source also suggested the writer's remains were discovered in the garden of the Saudi consul general's Istanbul home - located around 500 metres away from the consulate.

23-10-2018 9:46pm

chopped up and his face disfigured - primitive savages.

NSAman · 23-10-2018 9:50pm

Absolutely horrendous, does not sound like an argument to me. Sounds more like an organised "hit".

Does anyone believe the Saudis at this stage?

wexie · 23-10-2018 10:07pm

NSAman wrote: »

Does anyone believe the Saudis at this stage?

Hell no, I think they're all desperately thinking of ways they can go easy on the Saudis while still trying to retain some semblance of being believable to their voters/customers/shareholders.

I think the majority of the international community are more upset over how stupidly they did this rather than the fact they did it.

Would have been so much easier for everybody if poor Jamal had just had an unfortunate accident

23-10-2018 10:48pm

Khashoggi's body found in Newcastle

smurgen · 24-10-2018 7:28am

If the pictures i've seen on whatsapp of the body are genuine i believe this story will not be swept under the rug.absolutely horrendous.

24-10-2018 7:53am

smurgen wrote: »

If the pictures i've seen on whatsapp of the body are genuine i believe this story will not be swept under the rug.absolutely horrendous.

I'd imagine that they are fake.

mcmoustache · 24-10-2018 10:07am

glasso wrote: »

I'd imagine that they are fake.

Yeah, there's a lot of fake stuff going around at the moment. The picture of his head, for example, is fake. There's also some untrustworthy news making its way out of Turkey such as the finding of his body parts. They may well have been found but the reporting of it is still quite shaky.

31-10-2018 5:00pm

The Turks are keeping this story alive

Khashoggi strangled straight away after he entered the consulate according to them now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46049204

they seem to be pished off at the lack of co-operation from the Saudis on this and hence releasing more details

Jameswhalley · 31-10-2018 6:57pm

Restating the obvious

Nothing will happen ,the Brits the Americans and the Russians don't care

If it suited the alliance they'd make a case for WW4 over it

Odhinn · 31-10-2018 7:31pm

smurgen wrote: »

If the pictures i've seen on whatsapp of the body are genuine i believe this story will not be swept under the rug.absolutely horrendous.

Hundreds of thousands - well into the millions - have died victims of various US allies and little to nothing came of it. The killing here will be a small blip on the radar, and more than likely "solved" when an underling or two throw themselves (or are thrown) to the lions.

prawnsambo · 01-11-2018 11:12am

glasso wrote: »

The Turks are keeping this story alive

Khashoggi strangled straight away after he entered the consulate according to them now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46049204

they seem to be pished off at the lack of co-operation from the Saudis on this and hence releasing more details

This does not seem to tally with the initial reports of his killing that came out of Istanbul. Especially the pretty gruesome ones of his torture before he was killed. Either those were false or Turkey has done some kind of deal with MBS and this is the agreed and sanitised version. The way it's played out would suggest that the Turks were blackmailing the Saudis.

wexie · 01-11-2018 11:13am

prawnsambo wrote: »

The way it's played out would suggest that the Turks were blackmailing the Saudis.

That's such an ugly word, I think mutually agreeable arrangement is much better.

Muahahaha · 01-11-2018 6:41pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

This does not seem to tally with the initial reports of his killing that came out of Istanbul. Especially the pretty gruesome ones of his torture before he was killed. Either those were false or Turkey has done some kind of deal with MBS and this is the agreed and sanitised version. The way it's played out would suggest that the Turks were blackmailing the Saudis.

Thats the way I would see it myself, a deal has been done behind the scenes to put an end to the matter.

As an aside it is interesting to how the international community reacted to this vis a vis the Russian poisioning of Skripal in the UK. Russuan diplomats were expelled in numerous countries including Ireland. In comparison there hasnt been any action from western states on the Saudis compared to the ruptions with the Russians.

Also I think one of the Sunday papers had a story about the amount of Saudi diplomats operating in Dublin, far more than there is in London. Did anyone read the story and what reasons did it give for the heavy Saudi presence attached to the Dublin embassy.

wexie · 01-11-2018 8:58pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Also I think one of the Sunday papers had a story about the amount of Saudi diplomats operating in Dublin, far more than there is in London. Did anyone read the story and what reasons did it give for the heavy Saudi presence attached to the Dublin embassy.

No, I'd be really curious though cause I can't really think of any legitimate reasons?

Muahahaha · 01-11-2018 10:01pm

The article about the Saudi involvement in Ireland was in the Sunday Business Post but it is behind a paywall.
https://www.businesspost.ie/news/revealed-irelands-saudi-ties-spotlight-journalists-slaughter-429172

I know there are a lot of Saudi students here and we sell them a lot of beef. Not sure what the military equipment refers to in the byline of the article. Its still a wonder though that the Dublin embassy has more diplomats attached to it than the London one. You would wonder are they using their Dublin embassy in the same way the Russians are, i.e a hub for spying on others across Europe

Jameswhalley · 01-11-2018 10:52pm

Did anyone here from the gobernment open their gobs on the matter?

Sand · 01-11-2018 11:24pm

Jameswhalley wrote: »

Did anyone here from the gobernment open their gobs on the matter?

You know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

Ireland has nothing to offer in this matter between regional powers. Khashoggi crossed the wrong Arab. The end.

goat2 · 02-11-2018 6:48pm

I have been keeping up with the broadcasts on ALjazeera,

The update is that he was suffocated to death, and then cut into pieces and put in acid, so if this is the case, there is no evidence left,
Trump is still backing them and keeping the cash for arms deals with them,
I am thinking Trump is nervous of this whole thing, could have a lot to lose personally if he rocks the boat

03-11-2018 10:20am

prawnsambo wrote: »

This does not seem to tally with the initial reports of his killing that came out of Istanbul. Especially the pretty gruesome ones of his torture before he was killed. Either those were false or Turkey has done some kind of deal with MBS and this is the agreed and sanitised version. The way it's played out would suggest that the Turks were blackmailing the Saudis.

Doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Erdogan is going after mister bone saw

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46077894

The tide could be turning for bone saw. Moves are afoot

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-saudi-dissident-prince-flies-home-tackle-mbs-succession-58983364

prawnsambo · 23-11-2018 10:25am

Looks like everyone is on the same page regarding Trump's handling of the Khasoggi murder.

everlast75 · 23-11-2018 3:33pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What he's giving them is control over the judiciary for a generation.. They really couldn't care less about anything else..

He has appointed an enormous amount of lifetime appointment judges that hold very solid right wing (or indeed extreme right wing) viewpoints , so for the evangelicals and the true "conservatives" they are happy to live with the short term pain/embarrassment/ridicule that comes from having an utter imbecile as President as they are playing the long game and see the next 30 years of laws being shaped in their image..

Ah yes, the "christian evangelical" base. Is there a more hypocritical group existing in the world today?

https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1065722136030007296

listermint · 23-11-2018 3:38pm

everlast75 wrote: »

Ah yes, the "christian evangelical" base. Is there a more hypocritical group existing in the world today?

https://twitter.com/CheriJacobus/status/1065722136030007296

These arent evangelists, in fact they arent even christian. These are wealthy people who use religion as a tool to preserve or increase their wealth.

There is nothing pious about them, They are just nest featherers and take people for idiots. Which many people oblige

Leroy42 · 23-11-2018 4:22pm

His term is, as it started out, a business opportunity. His decisions are based purely on his idea of future (and possibility current) business opportunities.

Why would he risk losing out on potential business in Russia or Saudi? He is thinking maybe 2 more years, max of 6. Then its over. He can use this time to ensure he has 1st dibs on any deals. He isn't going to risk that for some journalist.

goat2 · 26-11-2018 1:04pm

Does Mr Trump have property in Saudi, it has to be a personal thing, but then again, there is a lot of money for the economy if they don't break ties with Saudi,
I don't think there will be any change in that front

everlast75 · 26-11-2018 1:09pm

goat2 wrote: »

Does Mr Trump have property in Saudi, it has to be a personal thing, but then again, there is a lot of money for the economy if they don't break ties with Saudi,
I don't think there will be any change in that front

other way around..

https://grabien.com/story.php?id=199355

In addition, they have pumped significant sums of money into two of Trump's hotels.

goat2 · 26-11-2018 1:12pm

Yes then, there is a business arrangement long before Mr Trump took office, this makes it awkward for him,
Business and private is so mixed up in this in that case

Muahahaha · 28-11-2018 8:33pm

This whole incident has been sick, from his murder, dismembering and then the constant denials of the Saudis. I thought the sickest part of the whole episode was Khasoggis son having to show up to MBS and shake his hand basically knowing that the prince was responsible for his dads murder. The Saudis had his passport and if he didnt show up to shake the hand of his dads murderer he might have been next, and he knew it.

everlast75 · 28-11-2018 8:41pm

This is a little out of leftfield, for such a Trump sycophant

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1067858171606249473?s=19

Muahahaha · 04-01-2019 12:24pm

5 members of the Saudi hit team are looking at the death penalty if convicted.

Saudi Arabia's attorney general sought the death penalty for five of 11 defendants charged with the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi as their high-profile trial opened in Riyadh yesterday.

All 11 accused were present with their lawyers at the opening hearing in the capital, according to a statement by the attorney general carried by the official Saudi Press Agency (SPA).

The attorney general said Saudi Arabia had twice submitted formal requests for evidence from Turkey - where Mr Khashoggi was murdered inside the kingdom's Istanbul consulate - but had received no response.

The names of the defendants have not been officially released. Five top officials in Saudi Arabia - including royal court insider Saud al-Qahtani - were sacked over the Mr Khashoggi murder, but there is no proof that they are among those charged.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/death-penalty-being-sought-as-khashoggi-trial-opens-37679924.html

Will MBS follow through on this? He would literally be killing five of his own henchmen in an attempt to buy cover for himself. Seems daft as everyone knows he ordered the killing of Khalshoggi and the hit team turned up prepared with bone saws and acid to do it in Turkey. He was in on this plan from the get go but now its caused a diplomatic storm he is not happy and is lining these five up for the death penalty.

everlast75 · 04-01-2019 12:54pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

5 members of the Saudi hit team are looking at the death penalty if convicted.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/death-penalty-being-sought-as-khashoggi-trial-opens-37679924.html

Will MBS follow through on this? He would literally be killing five of his own henchmen in an attempt to buy cover for himself. Seems daft as everyone knows he ordered the killing of Khalshoggi and the hit team turned up prepared with bone saws and acid to do it in Turkey. He was in on this plan from the get go but now its caused a diplomatic storm he is not happy and is lining these five up for the death penalty.

Absolutely. This was the prediction by a lot in the know.

josip · 04-01-2019 12:54pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

5 members of the Saudi hit team are looking at the death penalty if convicted.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/death-penalty-being-sought-as-khashoggi-trial-opens-37679924.html

Will MBS follow through on this? He would literally be killing five of his own henchmen in an attempt to buy cover for himself. Seems daft as everyone knows he ordered the killing of Khalshoggi and the hit team turned up prepared with bone saws and acid to do it in Turkey. He was in on this plan from the get go but now its caused a diplomatic storm he is not happy and is lining these five up for the death penalty.

The only thing we can be sure of is that whatever the outcome of the trial, it will have been politically orchestrated and justice as we understand it will not be served.

What form does a murder trial take in Saudi?
Public/private?
Burden of proof rest with defence/prosecution?

MadYaker · 10-01-2019 1:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

5 members of the Saudi hit team are looking at the death penalty if convicted.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/death-penalty-being-sought-as-khashoggi-trial-opens-37679924.html

Will MBS follow through on this? He would literally be killing five of his own henchmen in an attempt to buy cover for himself. Seems daft as everyone knows he ordered the killing of Khalshoggi and the hit team turned up prepared with bone saws and acid to do it in Turkey. He was in on this plan from the get go but now its caused a diplomatic storm he is not happy and is lining these five up for the death penalty.

I don't doubt that he will, The Kingdom Of SAudi Arabia is not a democracy or anything like it.

Spannerplank · 11-01-2019 11:50pm

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't doubt that he will, The Kingdom Of SAudi Arabia is not a democracy or anything like it.

The poisoning of the Skripals in the UK resulted in international sanctions and was called an "act of war".

khashoggi was butchered and his body will never be found and there is not so much as a peep.

Dohnjoe · 12-01-2019 3:50pm

Spannerplank wrote: »

The poisoning of the Skripals in the UK resulted in international sanctions and was called an "act of war".

khashoggi was butchered and his body will never be found and there is not so much as a peep.

It's not so cut and dried. The events and circumstances are a bit different. The Kremlin is hostile to much of the West, has been waging hybrid and information warfare against a number of countries for years. There have been many "recent" events, e.g. when the Kremlin bumped off Litvenenko in the UK with Polonium there was a lot of "noise" (like Khashoggi) but not much in the way of direct action/sanctions related to that. It was only later, with the Skripal attack, that we saw more concrete action - action as the result of a culmination of incidents. Again the treatment of "allied" vs "hostile" nations will always be different.

Saudi has much "friendlier" ties with Western countries. It looks like MBS has had someone murdered and while there has been a lot of "noise" and condemnation about it, you are right there isn't much in the way of sanctions at the moment

Two different situations, but I would agree that it's not a "fair" response. Unfortunately international geopolitics is not really a "fair" world.

Khashoggi and recent events (like Rahaf Al-Qunun) are turning a spotlight on Saud and MBS. If MBS took further actions (having people murdered) I would not be surprised to be international sanctions

Spannerplank · 12-01-2019 7:12pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's not so cut and dried. The events and circumstances are a bit different. The Kremlin is hostile to much of the West, has been waging hybrid and information warfare against a number of countries for years. There have been many "recent" events, e.g. when the Kremlin bumped off Litvenenko in the UK with Polonium there was a lot of "noise" (like Khashoggi) but not much in the way of direct action/sanctions related to that. It was only later, with the Skripal attack, that we saw more concrete action - action as the result of a culmination of incidents. Again the treatment of "allied" vs "hostile" nations will always be different.

Saudi has much "friendlier" ties with Western countries. It looks like MBS has had someone murdered and while there has been a lot of "noise" and condemnation about it, you are right there isn't much in the way of sanctions at the moment

Two different situations, but I would agree that it's not a "fair" response. Unfortunately international geopolitics is not really a "fair" world.

Khashoggi and recent events (like Rahaf Al-Qunun) are turning a spotlight on Saud and MBS. If MBS took further actions (having people murdered) I would not be surprised to be international sanctions

You can rationalise it until you are blue in the face. When met with hypocrisy and double standards you can talk about context or "whataboutery".

If you think that an attempted murder by a perceived adversary warrants collective punishment but an actual murder by a perceived ally does not then fine.

I know where you stand.

Spannerplank · 12-01-2019 7:43pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's not so cut and dried. The events and circumstances are a bit different. The Kremlin is hostile to much of the West, has been waging hybrid and information warfare against a number of countries for years. There have been many "recent" events, e.g. when the Kremlin bumped off Litvenenko in the UK with Polonium there was a lot of "noise" (like Khashoggi) but not much in the way of direct action/sanctions related to that. It was only later, with the Skripal attack, that we saw more concrete action - action as the result of a culmination of incidents. Again the treatment of "allied" vs "hostile" nations will always be different.

Saudi has much "friendlier" ties with Western countries. It looks like MBS has had someone murdered and while there has been a lot of "noise" and condemnation about it, you are right there isn't much in the way of sanctions at the moment

Two different situations, but I would agree that it's not a "fair" response. Unfortunately international geopolitics is not really a "fair" world.

Khashoggi and recent events (like Rahaf Al-Qunun) are turning a spotlight on Saud and MBS. If MBS took further actions (having people murdered) I would not be surprised to be international sanctions

An illegal land, sea and air blockade of Yemen? Is that not enough?

Muahahaha · 01-04-2019 10:19am

Latest twist in this story is now Jeff Bezos (of Amazon and owner of the Washington Post) is directly accusing Saudi Arabia of hacking his phone and stealing the naked photos of him and then distributing them to the National Enquirer for publication as well as revealing his affair. Bezos thinks this is Saudi revenge for the Washington Posts coverage of Jamal Khalshoggi. It will get really interesting if his private investigator can provide concrete evidence of Saudi involvement.

Havent heard any news of the Saudis on trial for carrying out the murder, its all gone conveniently quiet on that score.

01-04-2019 10:21am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Latest twist in this story is now Jeff Bezos (of Amazon and owner of the Washington Post) is directly accusing Saudi Arabia of hacking his phone and stealing the naked photos of him and then distributing them to the National Enquirer for publication as well as revealing his affair. Bezos thinks this is Saudi revenge for the Washington Posts coverage of Jamal Khalshoggi. It will get really interesting if his private investigator can provide concrete evidence of Saudi involvement.

Havent heard any news of the Saudis on trial for carrying out the murder, its all gone conveniently quiet on that score.

Hmmmm, not give much confidence in AWS security...

Muahahaha · 01-04-2019 5:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmmm, not give much confidence in AWS security...

Thought the same myself. Though maybe Bezos was using an encrypted phone (as youd expect of a CEO) but the Saudi secret services still had the ability to hack it. Either way it'll be interesting to see what happens next, with the WaPo at his disposal he could make things very uncomfortable for the Saudis in Washington.

Muahahaha · 30-09-2019 7:10pm

MBS to get the BBC Panorama treatment tonight with the airing of a new documentary where journalists have got access to Turkish secret service tapes from the bugs in the Saudi embassy.

8.30pm BBC1

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-49871651/jamal-khashoggi-s-murder-the-secret-tapes

Gael23 · 23-12-2019 5:57pm

5 death sentences handed to perpetrators

A Dub in Glasgo · 23-12-2019 6:33pm

Is this some sort of macabre joke?

The blood thirsty regime in Saudi will execute 5 people who are hooded and the bodies will be disposed off without anyone knowing who they are. It will not be from the hit team and there will be 5 people missing from the servents / slaves / low level criminals

Larbre34 · 23-12-2019 7:18pm

No, it's just the reality of Saudi. So long as we (the west) are happy to tut tut for a few months when such things happen, then shrug and carry on buying all that tasty Aramco oil, nothing is going to change.

Muahahaha · 23-12-2019 7:25pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Is this some sort of macabre joke?

The blood thirsty regime in Saudi will execute 5 people who are hooded and the bodies will be disposed off without anyone knowing who they are. It will not be from the hit team and there will be 5 people missing from the servents / slaves / low level criminals

Its pretty disgusting alright, MBS happy to send people to their deaths to cover up his own order to kill Jamal Khalshoggi. World leaders too scared to call him out

Limpy · 24-12-2019 12:25am

Don't expect any less from Western governments. The Saudis after all more or less knocked the twin towers. What happened then, they invaded Afghanistan.

Jamal Khashoggi disappearance

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