Jamal Khashoggi disappearance

Dohnjoe

Journalist and Saudi critic Jamal Khashoggi has disappeared after walking into the consulate in Turkey

As details are emerging.. it's really looking like this guy was bumped off. He gave 2 mobiles to his fiancee and told her to call one of Erdogan's advisors if he didn't come out - looks like he was aware of danger

It's already highly politically charged

Unreal stuff if the Saudis have offed him in their Turkish consulate

Odhinn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Journalist and Saudi critic Jamal Khashoggi has disappeared after walking into the consulate in Turkey

As details are emerging.. it's really looking like this guy was bumped off. He gave 2 mobiles to his fiancee and told her to call one of Erdogan's advisors if he didn't come out - looks like he was aware of danger

It's already highly politically charged

Unreal stuff if the Saudis have offed him in their Turkish consulate

At the moment it looks quite likely that he is dead, at the hands of a "hit squad".



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/saudis-lay-in-wait-for-jamal-khashoggi-and-left-turkey-quickly-sources-say/2018/10/09/0e283e2e-cbc5-11e8-ad0a-0e01efba3cc1_story.html?utm_term=.4ccb2731f82f

McMurphy

Was listening to this in the office yesterday on newstalk, there was also a theory that he might reappear somewhere in the near future,.


Completely bizarre either way.

wexie

was reading an article about this earlier and wondering are the Saudis taking a leaf out of the russian book.

Just flat out denying what a lot of people think they may have done. Although perhaps maybe the saudis are somewhat better organised than the russians.

Having said that there are already videos emerging of the 'alleged' hit team arriving in and out and about in Istanbul. Rumour has it one of them was a forensics expert so I guess they've got that going for them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45809470

trellheim

NYT reporting he was dismembered in the embassy. whoa nelly

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

ANKARA, Turkey — Top Turkish security officials have concluded that the Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on orders from the highest levels of the royal court, a senior official said Tuesday.

The official described a quick and complex operation in which Mr. Khashoggi was killed within two hours of his arrival at the consulate by a team of Saudi agents, who dismembered his body with a bone saw they brought for the purpose.

“It is like ‘Pulp Fiction,’” the official said.

Dohnjoe

Could be Turkish propaganda about the dismemberment, but equally it could be true

There's a chance he could have been abducted and taken back on that plane, but there is literally no cover story his abducters could use, and next to zero political gain from it.. I would assume hes dead

wexie

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There's a chance he could have been abducted and taken back on that plane, but there is literally no cover story his abducters could use, and next to zero political gain from it.. I would assume hes dead

Even though I would have thought that would be more along the Saudis way of doing things, bring him back, throw him in front of some religious court and then execute him, all official like.

trellheim

what was the film where they did that.... Bad Boys 2 wasnt it , the hard R cut ?

imme

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Could be Turkish propaganda about the dismemberment, but equally it could be true

There's a chance he could have been abducted and taken back on that plane, but there is literally no cover story his abducters could use, and next to zero political gain from it.. I would assume hes dead

Turkey is seeking preeminence in the region and on a word wide basis. The voice of the people of Islam. Their brand of Islam.

It is dubious about Saudi Arabia's louche-ness.

Trump says he's not happy. Nothing will happen there.
MBS in Saudi Arabia looks unstable.

Erdogan is typically petulant.

What will the outcome be, journalist murdered.
Little in terms of repurcussions.

911 hijackers were Saudi and where got invaded?

Its mad stuff but it will all blow over.

Larbre34

Ballsy. Full marks for efficiency too. The Embassy is Saudi soil, they know they can't be touched anymore than they could if it were a government basement in Riyadh. Problem gone, it will be a story for a couple of days then that will go away too.

Khasshoggi won't have supposed in a million years that they would be so blatant. He paid for his naivety with his life. And thats whatll keep the Sauds in control for centuries more, doing whatever is necessary to protect their interests without hesitation.

A Dub in Glasgo

Yes, this will be swept under the carpet without a peep from some western governments as the Saudis throw their wealth around buying all the new fancy stuff to use against Yemeni civilians

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes, this will be swept under the carpet without a peep from some western governments as the Saudis throw their wealth around buying all the new fancy stuff to use against Yemeni civilians

We do all love driving here and its coming into the winter too.

wexie

Hmmm... apparently the Turks are claiming they have both audio and video that proves he was killed in the consulate.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out if it turns out they do indeed have this evidence

Turkey 'has recording proving Saudi murder' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45838471

Amirani

Larbre34 wrote: »

Ballsy. Full marks for efficiency too. The Embassy is Saudi soil, they know they can't be touched anymore than they could if it were a government basement in Riyadh. Problem gone, it will be a story for a couple of days then that will go away too.

Not quite true, but effectively so.

The embassy remains the territory of Turkey (so not quite Saudi soil), but under the Vienna Convention, its law enforcement and officials cannot enter the embassy without being invited to by Saudi Arabia.

Cheerful Spring

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

911 hijackers were Saudi and where got invaded?

Its mad stuff but it will all blow over.

They were involved in 9/11 and it was covered up. Someday the truth will come out.

There plenty of American politicians who want people to know the truth.

Cheerful Spring

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes, this will be swept under the carpet without a peep from some western governments as the Saudis throw their wealth around buying all the new fancy stuff to use against Yemeni civilians

Trump is already saying he not stop arms shipments to Saudi Arabia over this. He even highlighted the money was more important to the United States. Trump is a fool and shill.

OneEightSeven

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Trump is already saying he not stop arms shipments to Saudi Arabia over this. He even highlighted the money was more important to the United States. Trump is a fool and shill.

Obama and Clinton would do the same thing, they just wouldn't be honest about it.

Harry Palmr

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this. The body (alive or dead) of Khashoggi is somewhere and it's not going to be long before any stalling by the Saudi's will be seen as refusal to admit the logically bleenin' obvious. If the Turkish have some credible evidence they should release some of it. Indeed it's a pity that it is Turkey at all given their own internal "issues" combined with long standing antagonism with the House of Saud.

Dohnjoe

This is not disappearing from the front pages.. this man is going to do more harm to Saudi dead than alive, how on earth did they think it was a good idea to murder this journalist

wexie

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this. The body (alive or dead) of Khashoggi is somewhere

I would imagine that body is long gone never to be found

CrabRevolution

I'm amazed how brazen it is. In all likelihood the Saudis will suffer no consequences, but the fact they've barely tried to hide it or provide any sort of alternative story is shocking.

At least the Russians try the "it could have been anyone who shot /poisoned /hacked etc." excuse and leave it up to the Western States to prove it was Russia (which they'll deny anyway), but this guy verifiably walked into the Saudi consulate and never left, so his fate is 100% up to the Saudis.

Zorya

Dohnjoe wrote: »

This is not disappearing from the front pages.. this man is going to do more harm to Saudi dead than alive, how on earth did they think it was a good idea to murder this journalist

It will though, it'll soon enough disappear from the front pages. So much political skullduggery these days is just a matter of being brazen enough to tough out the public's short attention span and general apathy, and trusting in the quick spin cycle of the news. Rinse and repeat. There will be no reduction of weapon sales to Saudi Arabia from Britain and the US and Europe and so on and so forth, so that the Saudi planes can reign down destruction on starving civilians or schoolchildren in Yemen, or wherever else they please, really. Who cares - it's jobs, profit, business! Trump only does what his slicker forebears have done before him, no more no less. Same dirt, different day. Money above all else, always.

Havockk

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm amazed how brazen it is. In all likelihood the Saudis will suffer no consequences, but the fact they've barely tried to hide it or provide any sort of alternative story is shocking.

At least the Russians try the "it could have been anyone who shot /poisoned /hacked etc." excuse and leave it up to the Western States to prove it was Russia (which they'll deny anyway), but this guy verifiably walked into the Saudi consulate and never left, so his fate is 100% up to the Saudis.

It's the shocking nature of the crime too. Not the cold unfeeling killings the likes we've seen of late but the torture and cutting up is serial killer like. And now to watch their allies try and brush it under the rug, I expect nothing will come of this.

Cheerful Spring

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this. The body (alive or dead) of Khashoggi is somewhere and it's not going to be long before any stalling by the Saudi's will be seen as refusal to admit the logically bleenin' obvious. If the Turkish have some credible evidence they should release some of it. Indeed it's a pity that it is Turkey at all given their own internal "issues" combined with long standing antagonism with the House of Saud.

According to the Turkish authorities, he recorded his torture and eventual death using an Apple watch.

I don't think anyone wants to see him being killed and chopped up if that's what is recorded?


Turkish version.
Turkish officials have said they believe the 59-year-old was murdered there by a 15-member Saudi “assassination squad”.

“The moments when Khashoggi was interrogated, tortured and murdered were recorded in the Apple Watch’s memory,” Turkish newspaper Sabah reported.

Brae100

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

According to the Turkish authorities, he recorded his torture and eventual death using an Apple watch.

I don't think anyone wants to see him being killed and chopped up if that's what is recorded?


Turkish version.
Turkish officials have said they believe the 59-year-old was murdered there by a 15-member Saudi “assassination squad”.

“The moments when Khashoggi was interrogated, tortured and murdered were recorded in the Apple Watch’s memory,” Turkish newspaper Sabah reported.

Only the audio was recorded by his Apple watch. The Turks say they also have video evidence, although that will never be released as it would compromise their sources.

This is very easy for the Saudis to prove they had nothing to do with it. All they have to do is produce the CCTV footage of Khasshogi leaving the embassy.

Cheerful Spring

Brae100 wrote: »

Only the audio was recorded by his Apple watch. The Turks say they also have video evidence, although that will never be released as it would compromise their sources.

This is very easy for the Saudis to prove they had nothing to do with it. All they have to do is produce the CCTV footage of Khasshogi leaving the embassy.

US officials claim they have received video and audio of the killing. My best guess is the Turks bugged the embassy and Saudis did not even know. They had secret cameras hid in the building?

TomOnBoard

Brae100 wrote: »

Only the audio was recorded by his Apple watch. The Turks say they also have video evidence, although that will never be released as it would compromise their sources.

This is very easy for the Saudis to prove they had nothing to do with it. All they have to do is produce the CCTV footage of Khasshogi leaving the embassy.

The Turks have both Audio and Video of it all because they have the Consulate bugged. They're using the Apple Watch recording story as a way of getting the recording out without compromising sources and methods. The Apple Watch scenario makes no technological sense.

Cheerful Spring

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The Turks have both Audio and Video of it all because they have the Consulate bugged. They're using the Apple Watch recording story as a way of getting the recording out without compromising sources and methods. The Apple Watch scenario makes no technological sense.

Audio does because allegedly he had connected and synced it up with a mobile phone before entering the consulate? Of course, you could be right and it just a cover story? It's a big deal to be found out you secretly recording a foreign power embassy ongoings. Every embassy in Turkey will now be looking for secret hidden cameras!

TomOnBoard

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Audio does because allegedly he had connected and synced it up with a mobile phone before entering the consulate? Of course, you could be right and it just a cover story? It's a big deal to be found out you secretly recording a foreign power embassy ongoings. Every embassy in Turkey will now be looking for secret hidden cameras!

The tech community have said that there is no technical way for the watch to sync with the phone outside the Consulate due to distance.

Cheerful Spring

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The tech community have said that there is no technical way for the watch to sync with the phone outside the Consulate due to distance.

If the experts said this I have no reason to dispute that.

Saudis recently held the Lebanon prime minister against his will too. Saudis have a long history of been involved in shady stuff including 9/11.

Franz Von Peppercorn

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The tech community have said that there is no technical way for the watch to sync with the phone outside the Consulate due to distance.

Depends where she was but it is improbable alright.

TomOnBoard

I suppose the manner in which any recordings were made and transmitted is irrelevant to most of us (We'll leave the spies to worry abt whether their defences have been compromised)... That recordings exist and can be validated is the big point...

If such validated 'proof' is produced, this ought to have huge repercussions. On its face, it is at least as serious as the Skripal poisonings in Salisbury, and look how the West's diplomatic services responded to that!

VonZan

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Depends where she was but it is improbable alright.

It's extremely improbable. What is more likely is that the Turks or someone else bugged the Saudi embassy.

I think this battle is futile as Saudi money talks and the US and the EU have let the Saudis away with a lot for selling them expensive military equipment. I also doubt Trump will take on the Saudis as they were one of the first countries internationally to support him. The US also heavily relies on Saudi intelligence in the middle east so it's no surprise Pompeo is so keen to sell them military equipment to keep the Saudis on board. It will be very interesting to see how this goes.

Cheerful Spring

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I suppose the manner in which any recordings were made and transmitted is irrelevant to most of us (We'll leave the spies to worry abt whether their defences have been compromised)... That recordings exist and can be validated is the big point...

If such validated 'proof' is produced, this ought to have huge repercussions. On its face, it is at least as serious as the Skripal poisonings in Salisbury, and look how the West's diplomatic services responded to that!

Guardian has a video of the alleged Saudi hit team and a van entering the garage area.

TomOnBoard

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Guardian has a video of the alleged Saudi hit team and a van entering the garage area.

Frankly, the Guardian video could be anything... Some planes, some cars, some ppl, the victim in front of a van, a similar van backing into a house, some ppl rolling suitcases... Hardly compelling evidence...

mcmoustache

It's disgusting that the west props up the Saudis. Yeah, I get realpolitik but the Saudis are basically the Taliban with money.

At this point though, they're no longer a stabilising force in the region. MBS is a bit of a nutter and he's seeing how far he can push before there are consequences. The nonsense in Qatar and Yemen is a good example. I didn't support regime-change in Iraq but I'd love to see the end of the house of Saud.

LuckyLloyd

This is a wild political event. Obviously it's disgraceful in every respect.

Cheerful Spring

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Frankly, the Guardian video could be anything... Some planes, some cars, some ppl, the victim in front of a van, a similar van backing into a house, some ppl rolling suitcases... Hardly compelling evidence...

Sure but maybe there are reasons to suspect these men are involved? We only saw tidbits of the evidence so far.

The Saudis are telling Trump they did not kill him. I hope the audio is released but it might be too upsetting for people to hear?

Cheerful Spring

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is a wild political event. Obviously it's disgraceful in every respect.

Is it not surprising do you think Saudis were not involved in crimes before this? They got away with 9/11 and its about time America politicians stood up for what is right.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They were involved in 9/11 and it was covered up. Someday the truth will come out.

There plenty of American politicians who want people to know the truth.

Hmm. There’s some redaction regarding the Saudis but there’s no way they have the expertise to pull off 9/11. Nor would it make sense.

Dr. Bre

Most of the hijackers were Saudi. Never forget..

Cheerful Spring

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Hmm. There’s some redaction regarding the Saudis but there’s no way they have the expertise to pull off 9/11. Nor would it make sense.

The connections have been outed by the FBI and CIA retired officials for years now.

The lead FBI agent who lead a 400 task force investigating 9/11 attacks found substantial evidence linking Saudi Arabia to the attacks on 9/11. The problem is the White house obstructed the investigation and ended the investigation before they got too close to the truth.

Robert Baer a highly respected CIA officer confirmed on video that Al Qaeda leader was in direct communication with Prince Bandar in the days leading up to 9/11. Money was also been funnelled through his wife's accounts to a Saudi spy who helped the hijackers settle in the United States.

Prince Bandar was US Saudi Ambassador on 9/11 later because the chief of Saudi Intelligence.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The connections have been outed by the FBI and CIA retired officials for years now.

The lead FBI agent who lead a 400 task force investigating 9/11 attacks found substantial evidence linking Saudi Arabia to the attacks on 9/11. The problem is the White house obstructed the investigation and ended the investigation before they got too close to the truth.

Robert Baer a highly respected CIA officer confirmed on video that Al Qaeda leader was in direct communication with Prince Bandar in the days leading up to 9/11. Money was also been funnelled through his wife's accounts to a Saudi spy who helped the hijackers settle in the United States.

Prince Bandar was US Saudi Ambassador on 9/11 later because the chief of Saudi Intelligence.

I see. Never read that particular theory although I have read theories about a different foreign state.

LuckyLloyd

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Is it not surprising do you think Saudis were not involved in crimes before this? They got away with 9/11 and its about time America politicians stood up for what is right.

Leaving aside the rest of your 9 / 11 conspiracy theory stuff, it *IS* highly surprising that Saudi Arabia would torture, kill and dismember the body of a high profile journalist in their consulate in Turkey and think they can brazen it out without sanction. It's outrageous. Just as Russia putting two agents on tele to say they were merely tourists going to Sailsbury cathedral and work in the fitness industry is outrageous.

We're seeing an uptick of activity that is reminiscent of the cold war. There are obviously plenty of potential theories for why that is the case.

wexie

mcmoustache wrote: »

I didn't support regime-change in Iraq but I'd love to see the end of the house of Saud.

I don't know. I'd be tempted to agree with that but it would depend on who'd replace them. I think they are by no means the most extreme voices in the kingdom

Franz Von Peppercorn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Leaving aside the rest of your 9 / 11 conspiracy theory stuff, it *IS* highly surprising that Saudi Arabia would torture, kill and dismember the body of a high profile journalist in their consulate in Turkey and think they can brazen it out without sanction. It's outrageous. Just as Russia putting two agents on tele to say they were merely tourists going to Sailsbury cathedral and work in the fitness industry is outrageous.

We're seeing an uptick of activity that is reminiscent of the cold war. There are obviously plenty of potential theories for why that is the case.

It isn’t really any more outrageous than the Yemen war, where western nations are also on side with the Saudis. Except this couldn’t be buried.

mcmoustache

wexie wrote: »

I don't know. I'd be tempted to agree with that but it would depend on who'd replace them. I think they are by no means the most extreme voices in the kingdom

I guess replacing the house of saud is realistically a non-runner. My personal dislike of them would have them wiped out but unfortunately the situation is more complicated than that. The whole country's system revolves around them and they can't simply be replaced.



The best that could be achieved would be replacing MBS with someone less nutty. Who knows, though. The problem may take care of itself. If his actions cause problems for other members of the family, he might find himself "deposed".

mcmoustache

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Most of the hijackers were Saudi. Never forget..

And even if they weren't, the Saudis are the source of all that crazy extremist wahabi stuff. They finance schools around the world where they preach their backwards nonsense. Those extremist schools are how their madness spreads. Those schools have no place in western or in any civilised society but, well, money.

Cheerful Spring

Fascinating news article released by Spector.

Headline What the media aren’t saying about Jamal Khashoggi

They talk about 9/11

Just some of it.
Worse, from the Royals’ point of view, was that Khashoggi had dirt on Saudi links to al Qaeda before the 9/11 attacks. He had befriended Osama bin Laden in the 1980s and 1990s in Afghanistan and Sudan while championing his jihad against the Soviets in dispatches. At that same time, he was employed by the Saudi intelligence services

Khashoggi was the only non-royal Saudi who had the beef on the Royals’ intimate dealing with al Qaeda in the lead-up to the 9/11 attacks. That would have been crucial if he had escalated his campaign to undermine the crown prince.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/death-of-a-dissident-saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-mobster-state/

Did the Saudis fear he would expose their darkest secrets to the media?

mcmoustache

mcmoustache wrote: »

I guess replacing the house of saud is realistically a non-runner. My personal dislike of them would have them wiped out but unfortunately the situation is more complicated than that. The whole country's system revolves around them and they can't simply be replaced.

The best that could be achieved would be replacing MBS with someone less nutty. Who knows, though. The problem may take care of itself. If his actions cause problems for other members of the family, he might find himself "deposed".

MBS isn't nutty though, or at least whilst he may be bordering nutty, he is also the driving force behind change in Saudi. His biggest problem is the Salafists, who genuinely are nutty.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/27/mohammed-bin-salmans-reforms-disrupting-saudi-arabia-status-quo-ex-google-exec.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/saudi-arabias-once-powerful-conservatives-silenced-by-reforms-and-repression/2018/06/04/5332bdec-3dad-11e8-955b-7d2e19b79966_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a8781b46ba4e