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Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)
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Does anyone have any research or info on such beef producer groups?Are there similar groups in operation to what is being suggested here and in the beef plan in the UK or mainland Europe? I'm not that up to date on on working examples of this concept but will dig a bit deeper into it.
If we were as beef farmers to try to implement producer groups, How would we do it? How would we avoid too many smaller splinter groups being set up? My assumption being with the larger and more united each particular group is the more negotiating power they should have with the beef factories.The caveat with such a scenario is you need to be in a good well ran and organised group or else you will be really out in the cold in dealing with the factories if in future individual deals become less common with a move to groups. Although it would not be much colder that the present scenario of how we market slaughter ready cattle I know.
There has been a lot of very good points in this thread to date. In particular some anger is right to also be directed at the large retailers and multiples. They are a large contributor to the present scenario of this race to the bottom of obtaining quality product at the lowest possible price. The meat factories have a tough time in dealing with these retailers, they are prepared to drop and switch major contracts at little notice and with no regard to the previous meat factory of whom they dealt with. Not saying I have pity on them either, but their game is a lot tougher and low margin,high volume that the simplistic view that some make of it being a money making machine.
All previous attempts at farmer owned and co-op type meat processors failed miserably. Many before my time, thus I am unsure of the exact causes, but I imagine poor management combined with unrealistic price demands from the same farmer owners/members would have been primary causes.0 -
I’d love to see the Levies system changed so that all farm organisations get a share.
It could be divided depending on the numbers in each organisation. More members deserves more funding.0 -
I guess the bottom line with this beef plan is at least its a plan. people might agree or disagree with it but their trying something. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over end over again and expect a different result, thats what many of us are at and I include my self in that.We might have tweaked things a bit but are still going around in circles. Good thing I like about the beef plan group is to see the youth thats in it. The next generation are about to speak one way or another I feel0
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Bass Reeves wrote: »Where will the money come from. The EU is reducing the CAP budget every year. Our present subsidies are worth about 50% in real terms compared to 2002. Apart from that Glas is a mere shadow of REPS. In the mid noughties I drew about 5K from REPS for 7 yeras( bought a small bit of land so had to redo plan) today GLAs is worth about 1500 to me and the discussion group is 750. The costs in the mid noughties was about 600 euro once off and 50 a year to do SFP. At present DG is costing 120/year to vet over 1K to planner for plan and nutrient plan. Finally teagasc get 500/year for my DG and charge me another 200ish I think
Lads that talk about a calf slaughter scheme are STUPID, STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID,
The reason I say thsi is the only winner will be the dairy farmer as it will put a floor of about 60-80 euro minimum on any calves.
And we will lose it will look brillant can you imagine Vegan and animal right group showing video's of calves being loaded on trailers and being unloaded into abatoirs and lads pulling and dragging the half dead ones. It will work real well for our dairy export image and our nice green beef image.
Can’t see the issue re a calf slaughter scheme, in Australia a lad would come every week and weigh your bull calves and pay a dollar a kilo, calves he took had to be healthy and fit to travel, if half dead they where left their, they went for dog meat....
Their needs to be probably 500,000 finished animals took out of the system to create a situation where factories are competing for stock, heading into spring 19 I really can’t see their been a crazy demand for calves going forward either, the light bulb has finally come on for a lot of lads this year and their not going to bother with calf to beef going forward0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »Not necessarily. The future markets work in the US because they have a huge market. As well Future markets cost money whether you buy or sell beef. In essence with a future you commit generally to buy or sell at a price but you must commit cash to cover that option AFAIK......
As far as I know, anyone can buy and sell Beef Futures. In fact most are traded by financial people. Here is the Live Cattle one for example (LC). Live cattle are cattle fit for slaughter. These first traded in 1964 on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME). (Opens better in Misrosoft Edge)
https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/LC1:COM
The beauty of these is anyone can access these online. They allow finishers to hedge against price fluctuations if they wish but more importantly, they give a sort of roadmap ahead of what way prices are most likely to go. It's a bit like looking at the odds of a horse race. Nobody knows for certain who will win, but the heavily backed favourite is the most likely.'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'
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Bass Reeves wrote: »The reason there is no forward pricing is because the Cartel decide that there is no forward pricing< that is why there is a requirement for legislation. There is forward pricing at present but it is only available to contracted feedlots.
Why would it be any different for beef? Part of the agreement with the lads getting forward prices is that if there's a shortage of cattle any day, they will be called in to fill it whether cattle are ready or not.
Factories would be taking on more risk for no gain so why would they participate?0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »No after cows are inseminated for to breed replacement heifers bull will be ran with herd so as to have tight calving pattern
But for the first 3 to 6 weeks all cows will be insimenated. Only the cows that you want a replacement from will be bred to a dairy bull. You will still have to AI the cows you don't want replacements from. You can't run a bull with them at that time and ask him not to serve the cows you want to AI. If male beef straws are available, they will be used.0 -
Why on earth would anybody want there to be a beef futures market?
All a futures market will lead to is third party (I.e financial investors) getting involved - and what does that mean it’s means speculation and speculation only leads to massive price swings which have nothing to do with the actual market position
We already see that in milk - it can fall from 40 cent to 25 cent in the space of a year, and it’s nothing short of a disaster for farmers
For me the solution is to get live exports running properly and on a consistent basis. That is the only way to get factories to pay for cattle and to create a bit of completion for them0 -
A futures market is completely different to the price market itself. Any speculation on futures has no effect on market price. They have worked well for USA farmers since the 60's. Why wouldn't they work here?
https://www.futuresfundamentals.org/see-the-impact/agriculture-futures/'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'
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Dieselmad producer groups as such are not in existance much yet. Up until about 2015 it would have being semi illegal to set up extra large producer groups. While we have a semi existance if them in the AA and HE schemes the cartel will not set base prices with them nationally. Mind you when these groups were set up first they the PG's did as they had the contracts.
However not the AA and HE schemes are operated by all virtually all processors on a kind of licience arrangement. The processors control the contracts from the retailers and then pay a bonus to the farmers. As such these are no longer producer groups.
Up to 2015 extra large producers groups would have been in contravention of competition legislation. However the EU saw the imbalance between retailer, processor and farmers. They agreed to allow these extra largae producer groups. However there needs to be legislation passed to enforce the rights for these groups. In 2015/2016 there was a start made and the expectation was that there would be 3-4 large producer groups with a minimum of 20K farmers/group. All farmers would have to members of a producer group and all beef would have to be sold through a producer group.
But lo and behold who objected along with the processors the good old IFA. Imagine that. They wanted that smaller producer groups be allowed. From what I understand the department suggested as low as 500 but the IFA wanted groups of sub 50 farmers to be allowed to accomodate the bugger feedlots. This would have allowed these feedlots could again be used to control supply. The proposed legislation more or less disappeared after that.
If producer groups are backed by legislation and if the processors are not allowed to do sweetheart deals with a few extra large feedlots it will lift prices across the beef sector. Talking about withholding suppliers marching on Dublin, chaining trolly's has all been tried and has failed this excuse of blaming farmers is a lazy excuse when the one time a change could have been made it was objected to.
Jaymala Australia is not exporting a load of beef and milk products into the UK and European markets. As well in Australia the scheme is not subsidised by government, As I said earlier part of the reason beef is unprofitable is lads paying dairy farmers for calves that should go straight for slaughter. Australia booby calf scheme is a market reaction to poor calf prices.
Yosemit it back again to enacting legislation that is being given the nod by the EU. The EU has again spoken about the imbalance between farmers and the processors/retailers but unless you have action on producer groups we will be here again in 2-3 years time.
Sorry I forgot in the last two week we had an ex president of the IFA speaking out against any control of FeedlotsSlava Ukrainii
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Bass Reeves wrote: »
Yosemit it back again to enacting legislation that is being given the nod by the EU. The EU has again spoken about the imbalance between farmers and the processors/retailers but unless you have action on producer groups we will be here again in 2-3 years time.
Ye that makes more sense, I thought you meant small producers groups of much less than 5000 -
Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »Completely agree they have enough and have the whole thing fcuked from tillage to beef but how else do you get them to sell to the exporters instead of nutters at the mart.
So, it’s all the dairy farmers fault. Ye haven’t a hope if at this early stage ye are turning farmer against farmer. The exact opposite to what ye are trying to achieve. Dairy farmers are beef farmers as well you know?
Probably makes you feel better though.0 -
Keepgrowing wrote: »So, it’s all the dairy farmers fault. Ye haven’t a hope if at this early stage ye are turning farmer against farmer. The exact opposite to what ye are trying to achieve. Dairy farmers are beef farmers as well you know?
Probably makes you feel better though.
Not all of them. The big ones that rent for silly money, miles away from home. Removing tenants that were on it for years. The ones carting silage 20/30 k away from home. The ones that will step on anyone to get what they want. The sad looking factory type farms. Sound familiar??
If you look back at my post you'll see it's far from turning farmers against one another I said. I said that you should get a bonus for selling to exporters to make up the difference of price than selling here. Fact is that there is something like 350k more dairy cows here now post quota. That's a lot of extra culls every year. Look at cow price this week. Did you see the amount of dairy cows in the factory during the summer out of the parlor? Something like an extra 170/180k extra bull calves on the market now. The market is flooded simple as. The suckler cow numbers didn't flood it, that's for sure. All that teagasc and co want everyone to do that isn't milking is to contract rare. No money in that either.0 -
Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »Not all of them. The big ones that rent for silly money, miles away from home. Removing tenants that were on it for years. The ones carting silage 20/30 k away from home. The ones that will step on anyone to get what they want. The sad looking factory type farms. Sound familiar??
If you look back at my post you'll see it's far from turning farmers against one another I said. I said that you should get a bonus for selling to exporters to make up the difference of price than selling here. Fact is that there is something like 350k more dairy cows here now post quota. That's a lot of extra culls every year. Look at cow price this week. Did you see the amount of dairy cows in the factory during the summer out of the parlor? Something like an extra 170/180k extra bull calves on the market now. The market is flooded simple as. The suckler cow numbers didn't flood it, that's for sure. All that teagasc and co want everyone to do that isn't milking is to contract rare. No money in that either.
Before quotas came in there were more dairy cow's than there are now and much less sucklers. How many sad looking factory farms do you know off? I know of none. Unfortunately it's the bottom line each farmer has to look at for themselves to see what needs to change0 -
Will arguing solve the whole beef situation; I doubt it. It’s not the dairy farmer, tillage farmer or the exporters fault. It’s more society’s. People want the good life now. They won’t sacrifice the 191 car or their sun holiday so as to support what is effectively a dying group. They don’t just care. The retailers are business people they want their profit margin at all costs, if Irish farmers can’t supply don’t be under any illusions it’ll be got somewhere and do people really think lads give a monkeys whether that’s reared on grass or a hormone pumped rig handled twenty different times and shipped in from some third world country.
I love farming and would love to be at it full time but 50 sucklers on ninety acres is now a hobby. Beef would have to double in price and inputs stay the same for me to make any sort of a decent wage.
It’s horrible to say but this same argument will be going on for many more years but the 90 acres will be 200 then 400 and so on. Subsidies are their to create jobs in the department and Teagasc and prolong the suffering.
I have joined the beef plan movement and hope it works, I also signed the petition to save our sucklers but in my own estimation I think we are being slowly phased out.
It’s great to see the will of some that are willing to fight, but every year I get more disillusioned by the way farming is going.0 -
Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »Not all of them. The big ones that rent for silly money, miles away from home. Removing tenants that were on it for years. The ones carting silage 20/30 k away from home. The ones that will step on anyone to get what they want. The sad looking factory type farms. Sound familiar??
If you look back at my post you'll see it's far from turning farmers against one another I said. I said that you should get a bonus for selling to exporters to make up the difference of price than selling here. Fact is that there is something like 350k more dairy cows here now post quota. That's a lot of extra culls every year. Look at cow price this week. Did you see the amount of dairy cows in the factory during the summer out of the parlor? Something like an extra 170/180k extra bull calves on the market now. The market is flooded simple as. The suckler cow numbers didn't flood it, that's for sure. All that teagasc and co want everyone to do that isn't milking is to contract rare. No money in that either.
So, you only want to alienate the larger dairy farmers. I rent land but not at “silly” money, I haul silage 30km and you know who’s land it’s coming off? It’s drystock farms, ones with enough wit to see where their bread is buttered.
We have offered all of our spring ‘19 calves to 3 calf buyers for a nominal fee of €30/head. That’s for fr bulls, He heifers and bulls but guess what? They’ve all declined. The simple fact is they can pick up “runners” now for €300, can’t say I blame them. There’s an over supply of cattle and further subs will only exasperate this.
Tell me this what’s the cost of keeping an 800 kg cow that produces 1 calf every 27 months? Just the cow
Tell me what’s your definition of a factory farm?
Tell me why you think there’d no money in contract rearing?
Tell me is every beef farmer good enough at their job to rear another’s stock?0 -
3 and a half yo “heifer” when she calves. I wonder could this be part of the problem. Should she not be in calf with her second calf? €4300???
https://twitter.com/ajwwoods/status/1060985736864952320?s=210 -
Sure really the problem is if a good price is paid everyone expands and all that extra beef has to be dumped somewhere.Will arguing solve the whole beef situation; I doubt it. It’s not the dairy farmer, tillage farmer or the exporters fault. It’s more society’s. People want the good life now. They won’t sacrifice the 191 car or their sun holiday so as to support what is effectively a dying group. They don’t just care. The retailers are business people they want their profit margin at all costs, if Irish farmers can’t supply don’t be under any illusions it’ll be got somewhere and do people really think lads give a monkeys whether that’s reared on grass or a hormone pumped rig handled twenty different times and shipped in from some third world country.
I love farming and would love to be at it full time but 50 sucklers on ninety acres is now a hobby. Beef would have to double in price and inputs stay the same for me to make any sort of a decent wage.
It’s horrible to say but this same argument will be going on for many more years but the 90 acres will be 200 then 400 and so on. Subsidies are their to create jobs in the department and Teagasc and prolong the suffering.
I have joined the beef plan movement and hope it works, I also signed the petition to save our sucklers but in my own estimation I think we are being slowly phased out.
It’s great to see the will of some that are willing to fight, but every year I get more disillusioned by the way farming is going.0 -
Keepgrowing wrote: »
Tell me this what’s the cost of keeping an 800 kg cow that produces 1 calf every 27 months? Just the cow
Very few hitting 800kg, most around 700. Cost of the cow vareys for everyone, length of winter in different areas, how intensive etc. I have a 5 month winter usually. Some very wet boggy land and some very good land. Calve down at 22/24 months here and the average calving intervill is 368 days. Some 340 days and some slipped to near 400, they were since moved on. I cost my cows near 850 a year to keep. Including lost opportunity to rent and full price available for bales if sold not cost price.
I'm moving away from the commercial stock over the next few years and into pedigree breeding and keeping a third less stock. Won't be much if any better off but will have allot more time for family etc. Less risk calving less cows.
Tell me what’s your definition of a factory farm?
Indoor systems with robots. Drawing all fodder to the farm from all over the country. I know of two and I'm not in the Hart of dairy country. They are Notting but glorified factorys.
Tell me why you think there’d no money in contract rearing?
What is the price being offered to winter springers at the moment? You'd want over 2 Euro a day to cover bales at 30 each, diesel, ware and tare on tractor and time etc, doubt you'd get that. If there was money in it lads would be doing it themselves.
Tell me is every beef farmer good enough at their job to rear another’s stock?
Definitely not. You only have to look out the window of your car for a few minutes to see someone that isn't good enough to do their own, so they definitely won't have the interest to do someone else's.0 -
Keepgrowing wrote: »3 and a half yo “heifer” when she calves. I wonder could this be part of the problem. Should she not be in calf with her second calf? €4300???
https://twitter.com/ajwwoods/status/1060985736864952320?s=21
That's solid madness and only ever happens up that part of the country for some reason. If the same cattle were offered down here they would be in the 1800/2000 bracket most years. They also get one or two hundred more for their weanlings every year like for like. Don't know why.0 -
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Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »That's solid madness and only ever happens up that part of the country for some reason. If the same cattle were offered down here they would be in the 1800/2000 bracket most years. They also get one or two hundred more for their weanlings every year like for like. Don't know why.
Not even that part of the country, just elphin. Some mart, 2700 avg , paid over 3k for some of tem as maidens0 -
Keepgrowing wrote: »3 and a half yo “heifer” when she calves. I wonder could this be part of the problem. Should she not be in calf with her second calf? €4300???
https://twitter.com/ajwwoods/status/1060985736864952320?s=21
That is as much of a generalisation of Beef farmers as the one above on the Dairy. A willy waving competition between 2/3 gob****es with too much of an EU cheque burning a hole in their pocket. Ive no agenda against Dairy. Takes serious hard work and even though there can be good profit, when a lad adds up the hours against the profit like many the small business youd be as well working in Supermacs for the hourly rate! Dont think this thread should become a battle of the different farm types. I think beef producers, being dry or suckler based can learn a lot from the dairy boys and maybe a little bit more efficiency on the beef side might help the bottom line. But instead of ye dairy boys coming on here throwing stones maybe offer a little leg up on how maybe we can get this off the ground and at the end of the day it is becoming more likely that more and more Beef will be dairy based. It is also important that there is more quality calves being produced and that everything that is extreme xbred is not coming onto the beef system. At the end of the day we are all farmers and our whole industry part time or not is being put under fierce pressure from big mouthed and loud sections of society and we either stick together or get buried.0 -
Keepgrowing wrote: »Tell me this what’s the cost of keeping an 800 kg cow that produces 1 calf every 27 months? Just the cow
Them fat beef cows are the best, only feed them a bale of hay every so often let them use the codiron on their back. They go back in calf easy costhey are so fat.theyre calves are always worth more than 1000 euros. Tbh they represent better value than cows with a calvig interval of sub 365 days imho. If only i could get more of them.:)0 -
CloughCasey1 wrote: »That is as much of a generalisation of Beef farmers as the one above on the Dairy. A willy waving competition between 2/3 gob****es with too much of an EU cheque burning a hole in their pocket. Ive no agenda against Dairy. Takes serious hard work and even though there can be good profit, when a lad adds up the hours against the profit like many the small business youd be as well working in Supermacs for the hourly rate! Dont think this thread should become a battle of the different farm types. I think beef producers, being dry or suckler based can learn a lot from the dairy boys and maybe a little bit more efficiency on the beef side might help the bottom line. But instead of ye dairy boys coming on here throwing stones maybe offer a little leg up on how maybe we can get this off the ground and at the end of the day it is becoming more likely that more and more Beef will be dairy based. It is also important that there is more quality calves being produced and that everything that is extreme xbred is not coming onto the beef system. At the end of the day we are all farmers and our whole industry part time or not is being put under fierce pressure from big mouthed and loud sections of society and we either stick together or get buried.
Is there room for imrovement in beef/lamb price, It's a luxury meat now and cannot compete with pork and chickhen.
Anytime I get a chance to go through ICM I cannot help but admire the effort they make to market our lamb, the different products they make and the amount of investment in further processing the lamb0 -
charolais0153 wrote: »Not even that part of the country, just elphin. Some mart, 2700 avg , paid over 3k for some of tem as maidens
It used to be a thing to go up that direction and buy young cattle. I'd say it's gone the other way now.0 -
When the Shorthorn replaced the native breeds as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.CloughCasey1 wrote: »That is as much of a generalisation of Beef farmers as the one above on the Dairy. A willy waving competition between 2/3 gob****es with too much of an EU cheque burning a hole in their pocket. Ive no agenda against Dairy. Takes serious hard work and even though there can be good profit, when a lad adds up the hours against the profit like many the small business youd be as well working in Supermacs for the hourly rate! Dont think this thread should become a battle of the different farm types. I think beef producers, being dry or suckler based can learn a lot from the dairy boys and maybe a little bit more efficiency on the beef side might help the bottom line. But instead of ye dairy boys coming on here throwing stones maybe offer a little leg up on how maybe we can get this off the ground and at the end of the day it is becoming more likely that more and more Beef will be dairy based. It is also important that there is more quality calves being produced and that everything that is extreme xbred is not coming onto the beef system. At the end of the day we are all farmers and our whole industry part time or not is being put under fierce pressure from big mouthed and loud sections of society and we either stick together or get buried.
When the Friesian replaced the Shorthorn as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.
When the Holstein replace the Friesian as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.
Now, a small quantity of Jersey bulls are used across a small number of herds and, again, farmers are complaining about how this will hurt the quality of the beef animal.
Time and breeds move on, markets change and farmers adjust their management to utilise the animals available to suit the markets available.
It's what has always happened and what will always happen. Life goes on and people still manage to survive.0 -
40years ago a friesian cow was better than a lot of beef cows around nowBuford T. Justice V wrote: »When the Shorthorn replaced the native breeds as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.
When the Friesian replaced the Shorthorn as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.
When the Holstein replace the Friesian as the main dairy breed, farmers were complaining about how this would hurt the quality of the beef animal.
Now, a small quantity of Jersey bulls are used across a small number of herds and, again, farmers are complaining about how this will hurt the quality of the beef animal.
Time and breeds move on, markets change and farmers adjust their management to utilise the animals available to suit the markets available.
It's what has always happened and what will always happen. Life goes on and people still manage to survive.0 -
And lads are still making money out of them.charolais0153 wrote: »40years ago a friesian cow was better than a lot of beef cows around now0 -
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I always think this is the worst part of the year for farmers. Facing into a long winter, days getting shorter. But somehow we still fight on. Everything that could possibly go wrong this year did. Just like the drought is becoming a distant momory now, next spring we'll be opening the gates again to lush green grass. The cute boyos that didnt keep stock for the winter, will be nudging their way in at ringside again.;)
'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'
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