New Airbnb rules

__..__ · 27-10-2017 8:09am #1

I can't link to it as I'm on the phone but it was all over the news yesterday. What everyone going to do who is providing Airbnb?
I was talking to an agent yesterday who told me there are ways around this. I have a meeting with them.after the weekend to find out what they are but what's everyone else doing?

Will Airbnb go to the courts? Will that start the ball rolling for landlords and property owners to go to the courts about rent control etc.

Graham · 27-10-2017 9:58am

I assume you're referring to the recently issued "Guidance on Planning Applications for Short Term Lettings" from the Department of Housing to Chief Executives of City & County Councils:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/circular_pl10_aph3_2017.pdf

I can't say I'm surprised, in fact I think it should have happened a while back.

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

Hitman3000 · 27-10-2017 9:59am

__..__ wrote:

I can't link to it as I'm on the phone but it was all over the news yesterday. What everyone going to do who is providing Airbnb? I was talking to an agent yesterday who told me there are ways around this. I have a meeting with them.after the weekend to find out what they are but what's everyone else doing?

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

__..__ · 27-10-2017 10:06am

Graham wrote: »

I assume you're referring to the recently issued "Guidance on Planning Applications for Short Term Lettings" from the Department of Housing to Chief Executives of City & County Councils:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/circular_pl10_aph3_2017.pdf

I can't say I'm surprised, in fact I think it should have happened a while back.

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

Businesses always adapt. No business which is successful long term is going to still be sticking to it's original 'mission'. It's just not how business or expansion works.

__..__ · 27-10-2017 10:07am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

Why would you expect that a business would be proposing something illegal to a potential customer? Certainly not the kind of business I would like to be dealing with.

27-10-2017 10:09am

Graham wrote: »

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

This use of Airbnb will be left alone, it's only full properties which are used exclusively for short term letting which is being targeted.

Hitman3000 · 27-10-2017 10:10am

__..__ wrote:

Why would you expect that a business would be proposing something illegal to a potential customer? Certainly not the kind of business I would like to be dealing with.

That's why I used the word 'if'. Good to know you have ethics and won't engage with dodgey behaviour.

Graham · 27-10-2017 10:12am

__..__ wrote: »

Businesses always adapt. No business which is successful long term is going to still be sticking to it's original 'mission'. It's just not how business or expansion works.

Most businesses manage to expand without large-scale flouting of local/national regulations..

Graham · 27-10-2017 10:16am

Arjun Fit Stewardess wrote: »

This use of Airbnb will be left alone, it's only full properties which are used exclusively for short term letting which is being targeted.

Are you quite sure. That's not what I'd infer from the following section:

1. Individual applying for a change of use for short term letting in an existing single apartment:

A grant of permission may be appropriate in an apartment where the following conditions are met:
Applicant is the owner or occupant of the apartment in question;

Apartment has a permanent resident;

Confirmation of consent of management company;

Short term letting does not exceed 60 nights in any one year and not more than 5 consecutive nights in any specific letting;

Not more than 2 rooms per apartment to be occupied per night and not more than 4 guests; and

Not more than 20% of the apartments accessible on any floor from any access stairwell/lift core to be approved for short term letting, on a first come first served basis, as is the norm for other locally contentious uses building up in an area.

rossmores · 27-10-2017 10:24am

I know a lot of pre 63s in CC non residential areas gone total short term will take some policing imo

knipex · 27-10-2017 10:29am

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

Since when is contravening the "Spirit" of the law as opposed the the actual law a reportable offense ??

__..__ · 27-10-2017 10:52am

Graham wrote: »

Most businesses manage to expand without large-scale flouting of local/national regulations..

Except that the regulations are being made to thwart the expansion.

__..__ · 27-10-2017 10:53am

knipex wrote: »

Since when is contravening the "Spirit" of the law as opposed the the actual law a reportable offense ??

The "spirit" of what the government are doing to property owners is what I would be concerned about.

Graham · 27-10-2017 11:08am

__..__ wrote: »

Except that the regulations are being made to thwart the expansion.

AirBnB expansion isn't going to be thwarted because legislation has changed.

AirBnB expansion is going to be thwarted because they're no longer going to be permitted to facilitate large-scale contravention of the existing legislation.

Again, had AirBnB stuck to their home-sharing ethos I suspect the market would have been left to operate largely without interference.

__..__ · 27-10-2017 11:14am

Graham wrote: »

AirBnB expansion isn't going to be thwarted because legislation has changed.

AirBnB expansion is going to be thwarted because they're no longer going to be permitted to facilitate large-scale contravention of the existing legislation.

Again, had AirBnB stuck to their home-sharing ethos I suspect the market would have been left to operate largely without interference.

As I said, no business stands still, changes were made to thwart Airbnb expansion.
I'd say the hotels are delighted.

Graham · 27-10-2017 11:23am

__..__ wrote: »

As I said, no business stands still, changes were made to thwart Airbnb expansion.

No sympathy from me.

AirBnB knew it wasn't going to last. AirBnB operators knew it wasn't going to last.

The AirBnB MO in each market appears to be; keep doing it for as long as we can get away with it.

__..__ wrote: »

I'd say the hotels are delighted.

I'd say they are, it must have been very frustrating trying to compete against unregulated operators flouting the regulations.

PeadarCo · 27-10-2017 11:33am

Graham wrote:

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

All AirBnB has done is make the existing self catering holiday accommodation more trendy and more profitable. Some existing providers have switched to airbnb and its profitability has seen new entrants to the self catering market as well. In Dublin its being helped by the lack of hotel rooms

Selik · 27-10-2017 11:39am

If current planning laws are not being enforced then how are new guidelines going to make a difference? I know somebody renting their apartment (to a of 2 people I think) in a large complex near Dublin city end their management company is fully aware and has no issues as of yet.

Graham · 27-10-2017 12:59pm

PeadarCo wrote: »

All AirBnB has done is make the existing self catering holiday accommodation more trendy and more profitable

errr no.

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

Graham · 27-10-2017 1:06pm

Selik wrote: »

If current planning laws are not being enforced then how are new guidelines going to make a difference?

The new guidelines basically remind and instruct local authorities to enforce the guidelines and to advise property management companies of their obligations in conjunction with the Property Services Regulatory Authority.

They also go on to say authorities will be expected to submit enforcement/complaint statistics back to the Department for ongoing monitoring.

PeadarCo · 27-10-2017 1:22pm

Graham wrote:

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

I'd agree but Airbnb branching out from just renting out rooms to whole houses has also come from the demand from pre existing holiday accommodation providers.

They are simply responding to demand. They don't own any accommodation as far as I know. If have an issue with whole houses on air bnb you need to look at the motivations of the people supplying the houses to air bnb.

You can ban air bnb but as I said there was a self catering holiday accommodation sector long before air bnb came along. There were plenty of service providers who tried the same thing as airbnb. This includes bord failte. They were just far less successful at marketing and making money for the accommodation owners.

Graham · 27-10-2017 1:34pm

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are simply responding to demand. They don't own any accommodation as far as I know. If have an issue with whole houses on air bnb you need to look at the motivations of the people supplying the houses to air bnb.

The motivation is, AirBnB bypasses any rights occupants would otherwise have had and AirBnB is much more lucrative than long-term residential letting.

Naturally a section of the market is going to try and move in that direction, particularly if it appears there will be no enforcement of the planning regs.

I absolutely get why it's a path many landlords have chosen.

davo10 · 27-10-2017 1:44pm

I doubt this will have much effect on owners renting through Airbnb. The government/local authorities have neither the resources nor the will to do anything about the tens of thousands of such properties. More hot air me thinks.

Graham · 27-10-2017 2:16pm

davo10 wrote: »

I doubt this will have much effect on owners renting through Airbnb. The government/local authorities have neither the resources nor the will to do anything about the tens of thousands of such properties. More hot air me thinks.

I would imagine there will be quite a few AirBnB hosts who hold that particular line of wishful thinking.

You might be right, we may see business as usual. On the other hand, putting pressure on management companies and local authorities from above (Department of Housing and PSRA) and below (complaints from the public), we may see a dramatic change in the short-term letting landscape.

It will be interesting to see if AirBnB make any changes to their rules to enforce the 60 letting/5 consecutive night limits. That would swiftly hobble a huge number of hosts.

__..__ · 27-10-2017 2:27pm

I think Airbnb might go down the legal route.
It's either that or lose business.
If Airbnb hobble you then you will try something else that won't hobble you.
Govt hobbles you you go to Airbnb. Airbnb hobbles you you move on to the next thing.

For my part I was letting and then the govt stepped in heavy handedly to make the risk/reward all wrong for me so I tried Airbnb. I actually got a company taking it off me via the Airbnb ad in the first place which is handy.

I was going to go to Airbnb when the current tenant moves if of my other property very soon for diversification but now I might just approach agents or companies and try to get the same deal again if I can. Either that or some.other alternative for short term letting assuming I can find one.

Gumbo · 27-10-2017 2:27pm

Graham wrote: »

errr no.

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

+1
I know people who bought city centre properties for the sole purpose of Air BnB.
During renovations they had everything done specifically for it, including remote access and monitoring. Key boxes for the guests to collect from etc

Graham · 27-10-2017 3:13pm

__..__ wrote: »

I think Airbnb might go down the legal route.
It's either that or lose business.

I'd love to see what legal basis AirBnB could use to argue planning legislation doesn't apply.

__..__ wrote: »

If Airbnb hobble you then you will try something else that won't hobble you.
Govt hobbles you you go to Airbnb. Airbnb hobbles you you move on to the next thing.

You're not the first person to suggest there are alternative to AirBnB but let's face it, AirBnB is the vast majority of the market at the moment. Sure a landlord could try a less public marketplace but lets face it, a few weeks of empty property/no income is likely to focus the mind somewhat.

Even if there were a realistic alternative to AirBnB, it's not going to help much if planning enforcement/management companies are doing their job.

MayoSalmon · 27-10-2017 3:17pm

kceire wrote: »

+1
I know people who bought city centre properties for the sole purpose of Air BnB.
During renovations they had everything done specifically for it, including remote access and monitoring. Key boxes for the guests to collect from etc

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

circular flexing · 27-10-2017 4:20pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

By that logic we should cities should cater to tourists before residents. That isn't really sustainable. Yes tourism brings in money but residents (existing or potential) should come first.

Gumbo · 27-10-2017 5:18pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

I don’t see it as a problem either, I done her planning application for him

I was just confirming another posters point.

MayoSalmon · 27-10-2017 5:21pm

circular flexing wrote: »

By that logic we should cities should cater to tourists before residents. That isn't really sustainable. Yes tourism brings in money but residents (existing or potential) should come first.

The logic employed here is a citizen buys private property and then does with it he/she sees fit.

In this instance the best return for the for the property is apparently in the Airbnb market. If it were in the long term rental market that's where it would go.

Market conditions will prevail long term.

New Airbnb rules

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