New Airbnb rules

__..__

I can't link to it as I'm on the phone but it was all over the news yesterday. What everyone going to do who is providing Airbnb?
I was talking to an agent yesterday who told me there are ways around this. I have a meeting with them.after the weekend to find out what they are but what's everyone else doing?

Will Airbnb go to the courts? Will that start the ball rolling for landlords and property owners to go to the courts about rent control etc.

Graham

I assume you're referring to the recently issued "Guidance on Planning Applications for Short Term Lettings" from the Department of Housing to Chief Executives of City & County Councils:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/circular_pl10_aph3_2017.pdf

I can't say I'm surprised, in fact I think it should have happened a while back.

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

Hitman3000

__..__ wrote:

I can't link to it as I'm on the phone but it was all over the news yesterday. What everyone going to do who is providing Airbnb? I was talking to an agent yesterday who told me there are ways around this. I have a meeting with them.after the weekend to find out what they are but what's everyone else doing?

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

__..__

Graham wrote: »

I assume you're referring to the recently issued "Guidance on Planning Applications for Short Term Lettings" from the Department of Housing to Chief Executives of City & County Councils:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/circular_pl10_aph3_2017.pdf

I can't say I'm surprised, in fact I think it should have happened a while back.

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

Businesses always adapt. No business which is successful long term is going to still be sticking to it's original 'mission'. It's just not how business or expansion works.

__..__

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

Why would you expect that a business would be proposing something illegal to a potential customer? Certainly not the kind of business I would like to be dealing with.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

This use of Airbnb will be left alone, it's only full properties which are used exclusively for short term letting which is being targeted.

Hitman3000

__..__ wrote:

Why would you expect that a business would be proposing something illegal to a potential customer? Certainly not the kind of business I would like to be dealing with.

That's why I used the word 'if'. Good to know you have ethics and won't engage with dodgey behaviour.

Graham

__..__ wrote: »

Businesses always adapt. No business which is successful long term is going to still be sticking to it's original 'mission'. It's just not how business or expansion works.

Most businesses manage to expand without large-scale flouting of local/national regulations..

Graham

Arjun Fit Stewardess wrote: »

This use of Airbnb will be left alone, it's only full properties which are used exclusively for short term letting which is being targeted.

Are you quite sure. That's not what I'd infer from the following section:

1. Individual applying for a change of use for short term letting in an existing single apartment:

A grant of permission may be appropriate in an apartment where the following conditions are met:

• Applicant is the owner or occupant of the apartment in question;
• Apartment has a permanent resident;
• Confirmation of consent of management company;
• Short term letting does not exceed 60 nights in any one year and not more than 5 consecutive nights in any specific letting;
• Not more than 2 rooms per apartment to be occupied per night and not more than 4 guests; and
• Not more than 20% of the apartments accessible on any floor from any access stairwell/lift core to be approved for short term letting, on a first come first served basis, as is the norm for other locally contentious uses building up in an area.

rossmores

I know a lot of pre 63s in CC non residential areas gone total short term will take some policing imo

knipex

Hitman3000 wrote: »

I trust you will report the agent if his suggestion is illegal or contravenes the spirit of whatever legislation is introduced?

Since when is contravening the "Spirit" of the law as opposed the the actual law a reportable offense ??

__..__

Graham wrote: »

Most businesses manage to expand without large-scale flouting of local/national regulations..

Except that the regulations are being made to thwart the expansion.

__..__

knipex wrote: »

Since when is contravening the "Spirit" of the law as opposed the the actual law a reportable offense ??

The "spirit" of what the government are doing to property owners is what I would be concerned about.

Graham

__..__ wrote: »

Except that the regulations are being made to thwart the expansion.

AirBnB expansion isn't going to be thwarted because legislation has changed.

AirBnB expansion is going to be thwarted because they're no longer going to be permitted to facilitate large-scale contravention of the existing legislation.

Again, had AirBnB stuck to their home-sharing ethos I suspect the market would have been left to operate largely without interference.

__..__

Graham wrote: »

AirBnB expansion isn't going to be thwarted because legislation has changed.

AirBnB expansion is going to be thwarted because they're no longer going to be permitted to facilitate large-scale contravention of the existing legislation.

Again, had AirBnB stuck to their home-sharing ethos I suspect the market would have been left to operate largely without interference.

As I said, no business stands still, changes were made to thwart Airbnb expansion.
I'd say the hotels are delighted.

Graham

__..__ wrote: »

As I said, no business stands still, changes were made to thwart Airbnb expansion.

No sympathy from me.

AirBnB knew it wasn't going to last. AirBnB operators knew it wasn't going to last.

The AirBnB MO in each market appears to be; keep doing it for as long as we can get away with it.

__..__ wrote: »

I'd say the hotels are delighted.

I'd say they are, it must have been very frustrating trying to compete against unregulated operators flouting the regulations.

PeadarCo

Graham wrote:

If AirBnB had stuck to their original 'mission' of rent-a-spare-room rather than practically encouraging repurposing of entire properties/developments the business model would probably have been left alone.

All AirBnB has done is make the existing self catering holiday accommodation more trendy and more profitable. Some existing providers have switched to airbnb and its profitability has seen new entrants to the self catering market as well. In Dublin its being helped by the lack of hotel rooms

Selik

If current planning laws are not being enforced then how are new guidelines going to make a difference? I know somebody renting their apartment (to a of 2 people I think) in a large complex near Dublin city end their management company is fully aware and has no issues as of yet.

Graham

PeadarCo wrote: »

All AirBnB has done is make the existing self catering holiday accommodation more trendy and more profitable

errr no.

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

Graham

Selik wrote: »

If current planning laws are not being enforced then how are new guidelines going to make a difference?

The new guidelines basically remind and instruct local authorities to enforce the guidelines and to advise property management companies of their obligations in conjunction with the Property Services Regulatory Authority.

They also go on to say authorities will be expected to submit enforcement/complaint statistics back to the Department for ongoing monitoring.

PeadarCo

Graham wrote:

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

I'd agree but Airbnb branching out from just renting out rooms to whole houses has also come from the demand from pre existing holiday accommodation providers.

They are simply responding to demand. They don't own any accommodation as far as I know. If have an issue with whole houses on air bnb you need to look at the motivations of the people supplying the houses to air bnb.

You can ban air bnb but as I said there was a self catering holiday accommodation sector long before air bnb came along. There were plenty of service providers who tried the same thing as airbnb. This includes bord failte. They were just far less successful at marketing and making money for the accommodation owners.

Graham

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are simply responding to demand. They don't own any accommodation as far as I know. If have an issue with whole houses on air bnb you need to look at the motivations of the people supplying the houses to air bnb.

The motivation is, AirBnB bypasses any rights occupants would otherwise have had and AirBnB is much more lucrative than long-term residential letting.

Naturally a section of the market is going to try and move in that direction, particularly if it appears there will be no enforcement of the planning regs.

I absolutely get why it's a path many landlords have chosen.

davo10

I doubt this will have much effect on owners renting through Airbnb. The government/local authorities have neither the resources nor the will to do anything about the tens of thousands of such properties. More hot air me thinks.

Graham

davo10 wrote: »

I doubt this will have much effect on owners renting through Airbnb. The government/local authorities have neither the resources nor the will to do anything about the tens of thousands of such properties. More hot air me thinks.

I would imagine there will be quite a few AirBnB hosts who hold that particular line of wishful thinking.

You might be right, we may see business as usual. On the other hand, putting pressure on management companies and local authorities from above (Department of Housing and PSRA) and below (complaints from the public), we may see a dramatic change in the short-term letting landscape.

It will be interesting to see if AirBnB make any changes to their rules to enforce the 60 letting/5 consecutive night limits. That would swiftly hobble a huge number of hosts.

__..__

I think Airbnb might go down the legal route.
It's either that or lose business.
If Airbnb hobble you then you will try something else that won't hobble you.
Govt hobbles you you go to Airbnb. Airbnb hobbles you you move on to the next thing.

For my part I was letting and then the govt stepped in heavy handedly to make the risk/reward all wrong for me so I tried Airbnb. I actually got a company taking it off me via the Airbnb ad in the first place which is handy.

I was going to go to Airbnb when the current tenant moves if of my other property very soon for diversification but now I might just approach agents or companies and try to get the same deal again if I can. Either that or some.other alternative for short term letting assuming I can find one.

Gumbo

Graham wrote: »

errr no.

Thousands of residential properties have been repurposed as short-term holiday lettings.

+1
I know people who bought city centre properties for the sole purpose of Air BnB.
During renovations they had everything done specifically for it, including remote access and monitoring. Key boxes for the guests to collect from etc

Graham

__..__ wrote: »

I think Airbnb might go down the legal route.
It's either that or lose business.

I'd love to see what legal basis AirBnB could use to argue planning legislation doesn't apply.

__..__ wrote: »

If Airbnb hobble you then you will try something else that won't hobble you.
Govt hobbles you you go to Airbnb. Airbnb hobbles you you move on to the next thing.

You're not the first person to suggest there are alternative to AirBnB but let's face it, AirBnB is the vast majority of the market at the moment. Sure a landlord could try a less public marketplace but lets face it, a few weeks of empty property/no income is likely to focus the mind somewhat.

Even if there were a realistic alternative to AirBnB, it's not going to help much if planning enforcement/management companies are doing their job.

MayoSalmon

kceire wrote: »

+1
I know people who bought city centre properties for the sole purpose of Air BnB.
During renovations they had everything done specifically for it, including remote access and monitoring. Key boxes for the guests to collect from etc

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

circular flexing

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

By that logic we should cities should cater to tourists before residents. That isn't really sustainable. Yes tourism brings in money but residents (existing or potential) should come first.

Gumbo

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I don't see why this is such an issue for people.

Airbnb market in Dublin anyways is created by the severe hotel accommodation shortage.

Fix that and you go a long way to resolving the issue, simply economics I would of thought. Instead as is always the case in Ireland the government will try come in and meddle all the while the real issue is not being dealt with, supply!

I don’t see it as a problem either, I done her planning application for him
I was just confirming another posters point.

MayoSalmon

circular flexing wrote: »

By that logic we should cities should cater to tourists before residents. That isn't really sustainable. Yes tourism brings in money but residents (existing or potential) should come first.

The logic employed here is a citizen buys private property and then does with it he/she sees fit.

In this instance the best return for the for the property is apparently in the Airbnb market. If it were in the long term rental market that's where it would go.

Market conditions will prevail long term.

_Dara_

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The logic employed here is a citizen buys private property and then does with it he/she sees fit.

Well, with restrictions. You can’t run any business you want from a private property without notifying anyone. There are regulations. And in apartment buildings, there are your very close neighbours and house rules to consider. If your neighbours are enduring increased noise levels and disruption, do you think they’d care that you are making bank?

wordofwarning

Graham wrote: »

Most businesses manage to expand without large-scale flouting of local/national regulations..

Really? Really?

I don't think there is a single Fortune 500 company, that has not had a major lawsuit for poor product safety, harassment/discrimination, tax evasion(the illegal one), fraud, corruption etc.

Most major corporations beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission.

wordofwarning

Graham wrote: »

I'd say they are, it must have been very frustrating trying to compete against unregulated operators flouting the regulations.

Hotels struggling to compete? Hotels struggling to compete? Have you actually opened a business section of an Irish paper in the last 3 years?

Dublin hotels have a near 100% occupancy rates all year round. Dalata (the largest hotel group in Ireland) released their company results last month. Their profits soared 80% last year. What would they have been without some healthy competition?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0905/902344-dalata-hotel-group-results/

Airbnb is so popular in Ireland, as hotels are a complete rip off. It will be interesting seeing how the Government spins the massive drop off in tourist numbers as tourists coming to Ireland will realise hotels are full and there are no Airbnbs available. We will have a drop in tourist numbers, as there will be no where for them to stay

Can we expect another 80% increase in profit next year for hotels, as with no cheaper alternative of Airbnb can now completely screw the customer over...

Graham

wordofwarning wrote: »

Dublin hotels have a near 100% occupancy rates all year round. Dalata (the largest hotel group in Ireland) released their company results last month. Their profits soared 80% last year. What would they have been without some healthy competition?

wordofwarning wrote: »

Have you actually opened a business section of an Irish paper in the last 3 years?

I read this in The Irish Times only a few minutes ago.

One Dublin hotel company, understood to be the Dalata Group, last year received up to €8 million in payments to accommodate the homeless in the capital.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-hotelier-received-up-to-8m-to-accommodate-homeless-1.3271914

See anything wrong with this picture?

circular flexing

wordofwarning wrote: »

Hotels struggling to compete? Hotels struggling to compete? Have you actually opened a business section of an Irish paper in the last 3 years?

Dublin hotels have a near 100% occupancy rates all year round. Dalata (the largest hotel group in Ireland) released their company results last month. Their profits soared 80% last year. What would they have been without some healthy competition?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0905/902344-dalata-hotel-group-results/

Airbnb is so popular in Ireland, as hotels are a complete rip off. It will be interesting seeing how the Government spins the massive drop off in tourist numbers as tourists coming to Ireland will realise hotels are full and there are no Airbnbs available. We will have a drop in tourist numbers, as there will be no where for them to stay

Can we expect another 80% increase in profit next year for hotels, as with no cheaper alternative of Airbnb can now completely screw the customer over...

Tourists are important but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who live/work in the city (or want to).

Minderbinder

I think if the ridiculous tax on rental income is reduced then many of the problems talked about here will dissipate.

The government are 100% to blame here, not Airbnb.

listermint

AirBnB are 100% to blame here and those amongst this thread who thought they coils flout planning laws running a residential property like a hotel.

Ever here the saying if it's too good to be true it probably is. It was a risky business to get into long-term anyway and you should have known that. Shouldn't throw the toys out of the pram because you got found out.

Find alternative investment that doesn't operate outside the laws and piss people local to you off

Minderbinder

listermint wrote: »

AirBnB are 100% to blame here and those amongst this thread who thought they coils flout planning laws running a residential property like a hotel.

Ever here the saying if it's too good to be true it probably is. It was a risky business to get into long-term anyway and you should have known that. Shouldn't throw the toys out of the pram because you got found out.

Find alternative investment that doesn't operate outside the laws and piss people local to you off

Typical of the anti-business socialist culture in this country. It’s bad enough that the state stifles business and tries to stop people trying to earn more money, I don’t think ordinary people need to encourage the government further.

Seriously, what is it with this country and the people opting for comfort over ambition? It’s like we’re a nation of retired old folks.

If people own a house and there is a huge market for short term rental of that property, and they can make multiple times the money that they make from overtaxed, inflexible long term rentals then this is something that should be encouraged.

It’s not Airbnb’s fault that there is a shortage of housing or that the government is greedy beyond relief with taxing landlords. Anyone who thinks that will never achieve anything in this life.

listermint

Minderbinder wrote: »

Typical of the anti-business socialist culture in this country. It’s bad enough that the state stifles business and tries to stop people trying to earn more money, I don’t think ordinary people need to encourage the government further.

Seriously, what is it with this country and the people opting for comfort over ambition? It’s like we’re a nation of retired old folks.

If people own a house and there is a huge market for short term rental of that property, and they can make multiple times the money that they make from overtaxed, inflexible long term rentals then this is something that should be encouraged.

It’s not Airbnb’s fault that there is a shortage of housing or that the government is greedy beyond relief with taxing landlords. Anyone who thinks that will never achieve anything in this life.

Your not a business. Your an amateur trying to float the law and making money doing so.

If you want to operate like a business then do so.


Socialist. Lol get real

listermint

listermint wrote: »

AirBnB are 100% to blame here and those amongst this thread who thought they coils flout planning laws running a residential property like a hotel.

Ever here the saying if it's too good to be true it probably is. It was a risky business to get into long-term anyway and you should have known that. Shouldn't throw the toys out of the pram because you got found out.

Find alternative investment that doesn't operate outside the laws and piss people local to you off

If you think this is going to stop people doing Airbnb you are sadly mistaken, so you shouldn't be so smug with your commentary.

You should be directing your efforts into making long term letting be even something approaching fair for LL and getting the totally tenant focused tenancy laws changed if you want LL to rent their property long term.

andekwarhola

As said by others, sticking to the original Airbnb model was fine but when you've a city with a rental crisis with so many accidental /small landlords and vast swathes of properties are being lost to maximising short term letting, it was only going to end in tears.

_Dara_

andekwarhola wrote: »

As said by others, sticking to the original Airbnb model was fine but when you've a city with a rental crisis with so many accidental /small landlords and vast swathes of properties are being lost to maximising short term letting, it was only going to end in tears.

Exactly, most people seemed to have warm and fuzzy feelings towards Airbnb when it first came on the scene.

People here are saying “We’ll use other channels if we can’t use Airbnb” but those other avenues don’t have the visibility of Airbnb and therefore get less business. And if they do become as big as Airbnb, then they’ll become the new focus for regulation.

_Dara_

Minderbinder wrote: »

Typical of the anti-business socialist culture in this country. It’s bad enough that the state stifles business and tries to stop people trying to earn more money, I don’t think ordinary people need to encourage the government further.

Seriously, what is it with this country and the people opting for comfort over ambition? It’s like we’re a nation of retired old folks.

If people own a house and there is a huge market for short term rental of that property, and they can make multiple times the money that they make from overtaxed, inflexible long term rentals then this is something that should be encouraged.

It’s not Airbnb’s fault that there is a shortage of housing or that the government is greedy beyond relief with taxing landlords. Anyone who thinks that will never achieve anything in this life.

Ireland is far from the only country to clamp down on Airbnb. Socialism? Is that why the capitalist mecca of New York has brought in controls?

MayoSalmon

_Dara_ wrote:

Ireland is far from the only country to clamp down on Airbnb. Socialism? Is that why the capitalist mecca of New York has brought in controls?

De Blasio is a democrat!!

_Dara_

MayoSalmon wrote: »

De Blasio is a democrat!!

Yeah, by Irish standards, the Democratic party is basically centre right wing or, at the most, centrist.

Browney7

Minderbinder wrote: »

I think if the ridiculous tax on rental income is reduced then many of the problems talked about here will dissipate.

The government are 100% to blame here, not Airbnb.

Is it only the marginal tax rate being charged on rental income that is ridiculous in your view? Income from working overtime, dividend income on shares/investments is fair game?

The spin on this forum that rental income being taxed at a marginal rate is grossly unfair is curious to say the least.

_Dara_

Browney7 wrote: »

Is it only the marginal tax rate being charged on rental income that is ridiculous in your view? Income from working overtime, dividend income on shares/investments is fair game?

The spin on this forum that rental income being taxed at a marginal rate is grossly unfair is curious to say the least.

Not to mention that sole traders pay the marginal rate also. What makes rental income special?

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

Is it only the marginal tax rate being charged on rental income that is ridiculous in your view? Income from working overtime, dividend income on shares/investments is fair game?

The spin on this forum that rental income being taxed at a marginal rate is grossly unfair is curious to say the least.

Rental income should be taxed a much lower rate, 20% max. It's a joke that your are taxed at the marginal rate.

You are investing your money, taking the risk and providing a service you should be very handsomely rewarded for this.

Browney7

Arjun Fit Stewardess wrote: »

Rental income should be taxed a much lower rate, 20% max. It's a joke that your are taxed at the marginal rate.

You are investing your money, taking the risk and providing a service you should be very handsomely rewarded for this.

So if you lob 300k into IRES REIT you pay a lower rate than the marginal rate on your dividends in your preferential landlord taxation utopia?

_Dara_

Arjun Fit Stewardess wrote: »

Rental income should be taxed a much lower rate, 20% max. It's a joke that your are taxed at the marginal rate.

You are investing your money, taking the risk and providing a service you should be very handsomely rewarded for this.

Again, what makes rental income special? Sole traders invest a lot of money in the start up of their business and still pay the marginal rate. Any business provides a service.