Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 1:10am

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1069970500535902208

Does anyone out there really believe that this guy knows what the hell he is talking about? "Taking in" billions in tariffs?

And that's because it's US companies selling US products to the raiders at prices that Don doesn't approve of, except for Saudi Arabia and other allies of Don.

Ozymandius2011 · 05-12-2018 1:20am

Just found out that as we speak, results are coming in from the Georgia Secretary of State election runoff. This is important because in half the US states, an official (sometimes elected, other times appointed) called the Secretary of State runs the elections in each state. During the election, the Democrats accused the Georgia gubernatorial election candidate (who won), Brian Kemp, of voter suppression. He happened to be the Secretary of State during the election.

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 1:23am

everlast75 wrote: »

Stone is pleading the 5th

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1070068482337894406?s=19

And if the Senate subpoena's him to appear, I take it he can claim the 5th there while still appearing before it or can it legally oblige to him answer questions put to him, with a declaration of no prosecution in respect of any criminal acts and deeds done by him relevant to the matter before the senate committee, under pain of imprisonment for contempt of congress. That'd be a horror for the courts to handle.

mcmoustache · 05-12-2018 1:27am

aloyisious wrote: »

And if the Senate subpoena's him to appear,

Unlikely with Grassley in charge of the subpoena pen. The Senate Intelligence Committee, on the other hand might be a little different.

TomOnBoard · 05-12-2018 1:31am

aloyisious wrote: »

And if the Senate subpoena's him to appear, I take it he can claim the 5th there while still appearing before it or can it legally oblige to him answer questions put to him, with a declaration of no prosecution in respect of any criminal acts and deeds done by him relevant to the matter before the senate committee, under pain of imprisonment for contempt of congress. That'd be a horror for the courts to handle.

The Senate could grant him immunity, in which case he could no longer plea the 5th. However, in order to grant immunity, 2/3rds of the Committee would have to agree it. Very rare apparently..

That said, from Stone's personal perspective such immunity would mean he could never be prosecuted for anything related to evidence he might give- an even more powerful 'get out of jail' card than a Presidential Pardon..

Ozymandius2011 · 05-12-2018 2:24am

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The Senate could grant him immunity, in which case he could no longer plea the 5th. However, in order to grant immunity, 2/3rds of the Committee would have to agree it. Very rare apparently..

That said, from Stone's personal perspective such immunity would mean he could never be prosecuted for anything related to evidence he might give- an even more powerful 'get out of jail' card than a Presidential Pardon..

Speaking of which I would point out that it was the Senate's granting of immunity to Admiral John Poindexter and Oliver North in the Iran Contra scandal that saved them from going to prison. For that reason I dont think the Democrats would support granting immunity, and Jeff Flake, who until January has the deciding vote on the Judiciary Committee would be unlikely to agree to it either.

Update: Decision Desk projects that the Republican, Brad Raffensberger, has won the Georgia Secretary of State's race.

TomOnBoard · 05-12-2018 3:41am

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Speaking of which I would point out that it was the Senate's granting of immunity to Admiral John Poindexter and Oliver North in the Iran Contra scandal that saved them from going to prison. For that reason I dont think the Democrats would support granting immunity, and Jeff Flake, who until January has the deciding vote on the Judiciary Committee would be unlikely to agree to it either.

Just showing the messiness that is inherent in granting such immunity is the fact that, in the cases you mentioned, both North and Poindexter were actually convicted initially. It was only after appeals that their convictions were reversed, based on arguments related to the congressional immunity. North had already carried out some of his community service sentence by the time his conviction was reversed. Also, it wasn't the immunity itself that saved him; rather the appeal.court held that the team handling his prosecution had not adequately demonstrated that they had inoculated themselves from being tainted by North's testimony to congress.

So, without being a legal mind, it appears that immunity only applies to the testimony actually given and not to any underlying crimes which, if other corroborating evidence exists, can be independently prosecuted. It stil! sounds like a.minefield though.

Captain Obvious · 05-12-2018 8:56am

Flynn gives "substantial cooperation" to prosecutors. Mueller recommends no jail time. A Redditor gives a full breakdown of his activities.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/04/politics/flynn-mueller-filing/

April 2014 — Flynn is fired as director of the Defense Intelligence Agency ("abusive with staff, didn't listen, worked against policy, bad management, etc." per Colin Powell).

Oct. 2014 — Flynn founds Flynn Intel Group. In a letter from the DIA, Flynn is warned that he is prohibited from receiving "consulting fees, gifts, travel expenses, honoraria, or salary ... from a foreign government unless congressional consent is first obtained".

Summer 2015 — Flynn is paid by ACU Strategic Partners to travel to the Middle East to promote a trillion-dollar Saudi-financed U.S.–Russian business to develop nuclear power capabilities in the Arab world. Flynn does not disclose this trip when applying for his security clearance renewal in Jan. 2016

Late Summer 2015 — Flynn begins advising the Trump campaign.

Aug. 2015 — Flynn receives a 13 200 EUR speaking fee from Volga-Dnepr Airlines, a Russian airfreight company that the U.N. had suspended from its list of approved vendors after a corruption scandal involving an indicted Russian U.N. official.

Oct. 2015 — Flynn receives a 13 200 EUR speaking fee from a subsidiary Kaspersky Lab. Ruslan Stoyanov, head of Kaspersky's computer incidents investigation unit is arrested in Russia, for treason, in December 2016.

Flynn travels to Saudi Arabia to again promote the Saudi/Russian nuclear project. He fails to disclose the nature of the travel and reports a fictional hotel name as his residence during the trip.

Dec. 2 — Flynn and his son meet with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak at his Washington, D.C. residence. In a subsequent email to the Russian embassy, Flynn’s son described the meeting as “very productive”. The meeting came to light publicly only in April 2018.

Dec. 10 — Seated directly at Vladimir Putin's right hand, Flynn appears in Moscow at a gala hosted by Kremlin-controlled propaganda outlet Russia Today (RT). RT pays Flynn 39 600 EUR for his participation and provides airfare, accommodations and other expenses for Flynn and his son.

U.S. intelligence notices an uptick in communication between Flynn and Kislyak shortly after.

Feb. 2016 — Flynn increases his role with the Trump campaign and is later vetted as a possible VP pick.

Feb. 11 — While applying for renewal of his security clearance, Flynn tells Pentagon investigators that he had received no income from foreign companies and had only “insubstantial contact” with foreign nationals.

May 2016 — Flynn joins the advisory board of OSY Technologies, part of the NSO Group, a secretive cyberweapons dealer founded by former Israeli intelligence officials. NSO's spyware is subsequently found to have been used to attack and surveil prominent journalists and human rights activists.

July 18 — Flynn leads crowds at the Republican National Convention in chants of "Lock her up!", saying "if I did a tenth of what she did, I would be in jail today!".

Aug. 9 — Flynn signs a contract with Inovo, a firm owned by Ekim Alptekin, a close ally and appointee of Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Flynn is assigned to run an influence campaign to discredit Fethullah Gulen, a Turkish cleric who lives in Pennsylvania and was blamed by Erdogan for a failed coup.

Summer 2016 — Flynn Intel begins work on a pro-Turkey documentary, hiring professionals to shoot it, misleading them about the intentions of the project and working to conceal its role in producing the film.

Aug. 17 — Flynn begins attending classified intelligence briefings with candidate Trump.

Sept. 3 — Flynn and associates begin reaching out to Russian hackers in an attempt to obtain Clinton's personal e-mails and transmit them to Flynn through an intermediary.

Sept. 19 — Flynn meets with Turkey's ministers of foreign affairs and energy, Erdogan's son-in-law, and other officials at an undisclosed New York hotel, in a meeting arranged by Alptekin. Among other topics, Flynn discusses a plan for "a covert step in the dead of night to whisk [Gulen] away" without going through the legal extradition process.

Sept. 20 — Flynn, his son and business partners meet with Dana Rohrabacher, a U.S. congressman best known as a staunch advocate of pro-Russia policies.

Nov. 8 — Election day. Flynn publishes a lengthy op-ed entitled "Our ally Turkey is in crisis and needs our support". He states that "we need to see the world from Turkey’s perspective" and brands Gulen as "a radical Islamist". Flynn does not disclose to the publisher that he was being paid by Alptekin.

Nov. 10 — Obama, in a face-to-face conversation with Trump, warns against hiring Flynn to be part of Trump's national security team.

Nov. 11 — Media reports expose Flynn's contract with Alptekin to lobby on behalf of Turkey.

Nov. 14 — Flynn receives the final installment of 466 400 EUR from Alptekin.

Nov. 18 — Flynn accepts Trump's offer of the position of National Security Advisor. Pence receives a letter from Rep. Cummings notifying him of Flynn's work on behalf of Turkey.

Nov. 30 — The Justice Department notifies Flynn that it is scrutinizing his work lobbying on behalf of the Turkish government.

Nov./Dec. 2016 — Flynn meets with Austrian far-right leader Heinz-Christian Strache at Trump Tower. Strache announces weeks later that his party has signed a cooperation agreement with Vladimir Putin's ruling party.

Dec. 1 — Flynn meets with Russian ambassador Kislyak and Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner at Trump Tower. The men discuss the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities to shield their discussions from monitoring.

Mid-Dec. — Flynn meets with the Turkish government to discuss an offer to pay him and his son as much as 13 EUR million to kidnap Gulen and deliver him to a Turkish prison island.

Dec. 22 — Flynn secretly asks Kislyak for Russia's help to delay or defeat a pending UN Security Council resolution.

Dec. 29 — Flynn secretly discusses relief from U.S. sanctions with Kislyak on the same day the Obama administration announces its response to Russian interference in the campaign.

Jan. 4 — Flynn tells Trump’s transition team that he is under federal investigation for secretly working as a paid lobbyist for Turkey during the campaign.

Jan. 6 (approx.) — The FBI begins investigating Flynn's late December phone conversations with Kislyak.

Jan. 12 — Conforming to the wishes of Turkey, Flynn instructs the Obama administration to hold off on a military operation to retake the Islamic State’s de facto capital of Raqqa with Syrian Kurdish forces.

Jan. 18 — Flynn attends a “working breakfast” with the Foreign Minister of Turkey and others, including Devin Nunes, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Jan. 20 — Trump is inaugurated. Flynn becomes National Security Advisor.

Eleven minutes into the Trump presidency, Flynn texts ACU managing partner Alex Copson that the Russian nuclear plan is "good to go" and "to put things in place". Copson tells associates that Flynn would ensure that sanctions against Russia are "ripped up" and that "this is going to make a lot of very wealthy people".

Jan. 22 — The WSJ reports that Flynn is under investigation by U.S. counterintelligence agents regarding his communications with Russian officials.

Jan. 24 — The FBI interviews Flynn regarding his Russian contacts.

Jan. 26 — Acting Attorney General Sally Yates informs the White House that Flynn misled the FBI in his interview, that the DOJ knew that Flynn’s public accounts were untrue, and expressed concerns that he was vulnerable to blackmail by Russian intelligence.

Jan. 30 — Trump fires Yates.

Feb. 13 — Flynn is forced out of his role as NSA after The Washington Post reports on Yates's warning to the Trump White House.

Feb. 14 — In a private conversation with FBI director Comey, Trump asks Comey to end any investigation into Flynn, stating “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”

March 7 — Flynn files paperwork acknowledging that he worked as a foreign agent representing the interests of the Turkish government.

March 22 — Trump asks Director of National Intelligence Coats to intervene with Comey to get the FBI to back off its focus on Flynn.

March 30 — Flynn tells the FBI and congressional officials that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, with his lawyer stating that “General Flynn has a story to tell, and he very much wants to tell it, should the circumstances permit”.

April 25 — Flynn tells associates, “I just got a message from the president to stay strong”.

April/May — Federal prosecutors issue grand jury subpoenas to Flynn associates seeking “records, research, contracts, bank records, communications” relating to Flynn and Alptekin.

May 9 — Trump fires Comey.

May 22 — A House committee reveals that Flynn lied to Pentagon investigators about the source of money he received from RT when applying for security clearance in 2016.

Flynn announces that he will not cooperate with a subpoena requiring him to hand over documents related to his dealings with Russians.

June 2 — Special Counsel Mueller assumes control of a grand jury investigation into Flynn.

August — Flynn files paperwork disclosing payments from SCL Group, a Virginia-based company related to Cambridge Analytica.

Dec. 1 — Flynn pleads guilty to willfully and knowingly lying to the FBI about his December 2016 conversations with Kislyak.

Dec. 4, 2018 — Mueller cites Flynn's "substantial" assistance with several criminal investigations when he recommends a sentence includes little to no jail time.

Here is Lindsey Graham's response after being briefed by the CIA on Kashoggi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yROrhwPTY

Not a good 24 hours for Trump.

circadian · 05-12-2018 10:33am

Nov. 18 — Flynn accepts Trump's offer of the position of National Security Advisor. Pence receives a letter from Rep. Cummings notifying him of Flynn's work on behalf of Turkey.

Looks like Pelosi for President is becoming increasingly likely.

Igotadose · 05-12-2018 10:46am

Discussion of the offer of the penthouse to Putin is a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I remember when I worked for a multinational how they, every year, drilled us about this. You can't offer *anything* at all without vetting it through your legal department, in advance, and getting approval, is what I learned. A pen, a pad of paper, whatever. No gifts to any foreign business contacts outside the company. Don't pay for meals. Nada.

Trumpco of course has only the best people, some of whom are now at the reigns of the USG, they'd never violate the FCPA. Note that violations don't actually have to include the act of donating/giving whatever. Just corrupt intent, which is why you never offer anything.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-putin-fcpa-moscow-project-cohen_us_5c06b70ee4b066b5cfa6885d

BTW, it might not be Trump himself is in violation, just the underlings that did the deed (was there a letter? email? something? that records this?) And in the maelstrom of corruption and criminality that surrounds Trump and TrumpCo, this is small potatoes.

Congress and the USG will be after Trump and TrumpCo for years long after he's gone from the WH.

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2018 11:13am

Igotadose wrote: »

Discussion of the offer of the penthouse to Putin is a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I remember when I worked for a multinational how they, every year, drilled us about this. You can't offer *anything* at all without vetting it through your legal department, in advance, and getting approval, is what I learned. A pen, a pad of paper, whatever. No gifts to any foreign business contacts outside the company. Don't pay for meals. Nada.

Trumpco of course has only the best people, some of whom are now at the reigns of the USG, they'd never violate the FCPA. Note that violations don't actually have to include the act of donating/giving whatever. Just corrupt intent, which is why you never offer anything.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-putin-fcpa-moscow-project-cohen_us_5c06b70ee4b066b5cfa6885d

BTW, it might not be Trump himself is in violation, just the underlings that did the deed (was there a letter? email? something? that records this?) And in the maelstrom of corruption and criminality that surrounds Trump and TrumpCo, this is small potatoes.

Congress and the USG will be after Trump and TrumpCo for years long after he's gone from the WH.

I mean it's not like Trump has ever said that the anti-bribery law was "ridiculous, a horrible law that made it difficult for U.S. companies to compete overseas." or anything...

But the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which bars businesses from paying bribes to overseas officials, remains a key part of U.S. efforts to combat global corruption.

Now one study is showing the Trump administration's use of the law may be declining, even as administration officials say they're committed to enforcing it.

When the law was first passed, the United States was something of an outlier because many other governments did little to stop bribery. Over time, however, attitudes changed. Today, governments around the world are much more likely to cooperate in pursuing wrongdoers.

Still, the 1977 law has its critics, like Trump, who say companies can't compete when barred from paying bribes in places where doing so is routine.

"Now, every other country goes into these places, and they do what they have to do. It's a horrible law and it should be changed. I mean, we're like the policeman for the world. It's ridiculous," Trump said in a 2012 interview on CNBC.

Such comments have raised questions about the Trump administration's interest in enforcing the law.

mcmoustache · 05-12-2018 11:35am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Flynn gives "substantial cooperation" to prosecutors. Mueller recommends no jail time. A Redditor gives a full breakdown of his activities.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/04/politics/flynn-mueller-filing/

Not a good 24 hours for Trump.

What has me somewhat confused is Flynn's behaviour over the past year or so. From the filing last night, we know that he has been fully cooperating so much that Mueller wants to let him completely off the hook. On the other hand, he has been full MAGA at public events and retweeting QAnon nonsense.

I got the impression from the filing that Flynn went above and beyond in terms of his cooperation so it doesn't make sense to me that he would do that while still red-capping in public.

On the other hand, his plea agreement from last year does contain this interesting bit:

(a) Your client shall cooperate fully, truthfully, completely, and forthrightly with this Office and other Federal, state, and local law enforcement authorities identified by this Office in any and all matters as to which this Office deems the cooperation relevant. Your client acknowledges that your client's cooperation may include, but will not necessarily be limited to: answering questions; providing sworn written statements; taking government administered polygraph examination(s); and participating in covert law enforcement activities.

I wonder if the red-capping over the past year was just an act? I'll keep an eye on his and his son't twitter to see if there's any change now that the cat's out of the bag.

everlast75 · 05-12-2018 12:14pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

What has me somewhat confused is Flynn's behaviour over the past year or so. From the filing last night, we know that he has been fully cooperating so much that Mueller wants to let him completely off the hook. On the other hand, he has been full MAGA at public events and retweeting QAnon nonsense.

I got the impression from the filing that Flynn went above and beyond in terms of his cooperation so it doesn't make sense to me that he would do that while still red-capping in public.

On the other hand, his plea agreement from last year does contain this interesting bit:

I wonder if the red-capping over the past year was just an act? I'll keep an eye on his and his son't twitter to see if there's any change now that the cat's out of the bag.

I think so. Mueller values secrecy and it would appear for example with Cohen, that he does not like others to know what is going on behind closed doors. Keeping up appearances I guess fits into that M.O.

I think there may have been two cards played with Flynn in terms of securing his unadulterated co-operation, given that he apparently was only facing 6 months.

I think they played his legacy as a US officer and asked if he wanted to be remembered as a guy who sold out his Country after all his service.

Secondly, I reckon his son is on the hook for something serious, and he wanted to ensure his safety.

This is speculation on my part, but I too was mystified at the complete 180 in terms of his chants of "lock her up" to cooperating utterly with Mueller, and others.

prawnsambo · 05-12-2018 12:23pm

everlast75 wrote: »

Secondly, I reckon his son is on the hook for something serious, and he wanted to ensure his safety.

I don't know if you've read this, but (and it's pretty damn out there) it suggests the same thing. It's a year old, but so far it's still stacking up. Only time will tell if it's accurate.

Senior law enforcement officials presented Donald Trump’s former National Security adviser, already indicted at the time for failure to register as a foreign agent of Turkey, with irrefutable evidence of espionage committed on behalf of the Russian state by both himself and his son and business partner, Mike Flynn Jr. Espionage is a capital crime.

Penn · 05-12-2018 12:32pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

What has me somewhat confused is Flynn's behaviour over the past year or so. From the filing last night, we know that he has been fully cooperating so much that Mueller wants to let him completely off the hook. On the other hand, he has been full MAGA at public events and retweeting QAnon nonsense.

I got the impression from the filing that Flynn went above and beyond in terms of his cooperation so it doesn't make sense to me that he would do that while still red-capping in public.
I wonder if the red-capping over the past year was just an act? I'll keep an eye on his and his son't twitter to see if there's any change now that the cat's out of the bag.

I'd say it's more likely that he still fully believes in Trump and what Trump is doing and is still a MAGAholic, but that he also recognises how deep a sh*theap he (and possibly his son) is in and co-operating fully is his best chance of staying out of jail and having some semblance of a comfortable life going forward. That's why so many have flipped on Trump; as much as they believe in him or saw him as their golden goose, they know if they stick with him too long they'll go down with the ship.

Penn · 05-12-2018 12:37pm

Also, not sure on the accuracy of this as it's just something I saw on Twitter yesterday, but regarding Roger Stone pleading the 5th Amendment, is it true that that only protects you from having to give testimony, but doesn't protect you from having to submit documents? As in Stone may still be forced to provide documentary evidence if asked and the 5th amendment doesn't protect him from that. Haven't had a chance to look it up myself.

amandstu · 05-12-2018 1:28pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I mean it's not like Trump has ever said that the anti-bribery law was "ridiculous, a horrible law that made it difficult for U.S. companies to compete overseas." or anything...

I think that quote (that I was unaware of) goes to the heart of his and his cronies' putrid mindset.

Not to say that the giving of gifts is not justifiably engrained into all cultures but I think most of us know when we have stepped in a piece of sh** whereas some of us seem to use them as stepping stones.

Itssoeasy · 05-12-2018 1:34pm

This whole Trump presidency has been an out of control landfill fire, but I found Rudolph gulianni and his stupid conspiracy theory about twitter about g20.In funny when it was clearly taken to be a link of some kind by twitter because Rudy didn't make a proper space between the full stop of one sentence and the start of the other.

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 1:37pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

On the other hand, his plea agreement from last year does contain this interesting bit:

I wonder if the red-capping over the past year was just an act? I'll keep an eye on his and his son't twitter to see if there's any change now that the cat's out of the bag.

Double-agenting wearing a wire?

B0jangles · 05-12-2018 1:39pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

This whole Trump presidency has been an out of control landfill fire, but I found Rudolph gulianni and his stupid conspiracy theory about twitter about g20.In funny when it was clearly taken to be a link of some kind by twitter because Rudy didn't make a proper space between the full stop of one sentence and the start of the other.

And Rudy was supposed to be Trump's Cyber-Security Expert.

It's almost too perfect.

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 1:52pm

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prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't know if you've read this, but (and it's pretty damn out there) it suggests the same thing. It's a year old, but so far it's still stacking up. Only time will tell if it's accurate.

From Huffpost Dec 2017. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/michael-flynn-will-keep-military-rank-and-pension_us_5a219b9fe4b0a02abe90ff61

Now if Gen Flynn was still on the General Staff "officers liable for active duty while retired" list it might make a difference as to whom could in theory try him on a capital charge of espionage, and terminate his federal defence pension abruptly.

mcmoustache · 05-12-2018 1:53pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't know if you've read this, but (and it's pretty damn out there) it suggests the same thing. It's a year old, but so far it's still stacking up. Only time will tell if it's accurate.

If Mensch's Patribotics report is correct, it's probably coincidental. I don't think she has been right about much anything since the story about the dns lookups to alpha-bank. As I said, the report could well be correct but she's a terrible source.

everlast75 · 05-12-2018 2:31pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Double-agenting wearing a wire?

Apparently RR floated that idea in the story that broke when removal of the president was discussed, so possible?

everlast75 · 05-12-2018 2:36pm

Penn wrote: »

Also, not sure on the accuracy of this as it's just something I saw on Twitter yesterday, but regarding Roger Stone pleading the 5th Amendment, is it true that that only protects you from having to give testimony, but doesn't protect you from having to submit documents? As in Stone may still be forced to provide documentary evidence if asked and the 5th amendment doesn't protect him from that. Haven't had a chance to look it up myself.

Good explanation from a solid professional

https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/1070083530150043649?s=19

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 2:44pm

RTE is discussing the Mueller investigation with a US journalist and it seems that Rob Mueller has asked the judge hearing the Flynn case NOT to impose jail-time on the general as he has been cooperating with the investigation. I don't know if the request is par for the course to avoid a charge of bias or means the general has rolled and provided Mueller info beneficial to his investigation and he wants to keep Flynn onside while unsettling the usual suspects.

Gwen Cooper · 05-12-2018 2:49pm

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE is discussing the Mueller investigation with a US journalist and it seems that Rob Mueller has asked the judge hearing the Flynn case NOT to impose jail-time on the general as he has been cooperating with the investigation. I don't know if the request is par for the course to avoid a charge of bias or means the general has rolled and provided Mueller info beneficial to his investigation and he wants to keep Flynn onside while unsettling the usual suspects.

It's probably a message to the others - cooperate and I'll be nice.

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2018 2:51pm

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE is discussing the Mueller investigation with a US journalist and it seems that Rob Mueller has asked the judge hearing the Flynn case NOT to impose jail-time on the general as he has been cooperating with the investigation. I don't know if the request is par for the course to avoid a charge of bias or means the general has rolled and provided Mueller info beneficial to his investigation and he wants to keep Flynn onside while unsettling the usual suspects.

There are a few things about the Mueller submission on Flynn that are very interesting.

One is obviously that he's recommending no jail time for Flynn which suggests that Flynn has given up everything and everyone that he knows.

The other is that the submission lists 3 active cases that Flynn is helping with and that the "Russian Collusion" case is listed 2nd out of three with the 1st being described as a Criminal Case with the details redacted and the 3rd not being described at all.

The size of the redacted sections suggests that the 2 unknown cases are substantial and significant ( given that the redacted sections are both larger than the text plus redactions for the Russian Collusion section).

What (or who) does Flynn know about that has not yet been made public??

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 3:04pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There are a few things about the Mueller submission on Flynn that are very interesting.

One is obviously that he's recommending no jail time for Flynn which suggests that Flynn has given up everything and everyone that he knows.

The other is that the submission lists 3 active cases that Flynn is helping with and that the "Russian Collusion" case is listed 2nd out of three with the 1st being described as a Criminal Case with the details redacted and the 3rd not being described at all.

The size of the redacted sections suggests that the 2 unknown cases are substantial and significant ( given that the redacted sections are both larger than the text plus redactions for the Russian Collusion section).

What (or who) does Flynn know about that has not yet been made public??

I'm mindful of the reports from some months back where Don was allegedly walking around the W/W doubting the reliability of all those working there. I can just imagine the effect on Don if he got the idea in his head that staffers were recording what he [or his family members] was saying.

mcmoustache · 05-12-2018 3:10pm

Penn wrote: »

Also, not sure on the accuracy of this as it's just something I saw on Twitter yesterday, but regarding Roger Stone pleading the 5th Amendment, is it true that that only protects you from having to give testimony, but doesn't protect you from having to submit documents? As in Stone may still be forced to provide documentary evidence if asked and the 5th amendment doesn't protect him from that. Haven't had a chance to look it up myself.

On the face of it, the 5th protects you from incriminating testimony but not from submitting documents. There's a grey area, however, where the act of production provides information that wasn't in the hands of prosecutors.

Under the Act of Production Doctrine, the act of an individual in producing documents or materials (e.g., in response to a subpoena) may have a "testimonial aspect" for purposes of the individual's right to assert the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination to the extent that the individual's act of production provides information not already in the hands of law enforcement personnel about the (1) existence; (2) custody; or (3) authenticity, of the documents or materials produced.

mcmoustache · 05-12-2018 3:12pm

aloyisious wrote: »

Double-agenting wearing a wire?

He could be asked to do so or to record his phone conversations as part of the plea deal. That's not to say that it happened - just that he could have been.

prawnsambo · 05-12-2018 3:16pm

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE is discussing the Mueller investigation with a US journalist and it seems that Rob Mueller has asked the judge hearing the Flynn case NOT to impose jail-time on the general as he has been cooperating with the investigation. I don't know if the request is par for the course to avoid a charge of bias or means the general has rolled and provided Mueller info beneficial to his investigation and he wants to keep Flynn onside while unsettling the usual suspects.

It seems that the "no charges" are in relation to relatively minor offences. 'Relatively' because according to the timeline posted earlier, he could well be charged with more serious offences.

serfboard · 05-12-2018 3:24pm

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm mindful of the reports from some months back where Don was allegedly walking around the W/W doubting the reliability of all those working there. I can just imagine the effect on Don if he got the idea in his head that staffers were recording what he [or his family members] was saying.

Yep, this is also reflected in what he is saying about Mike Pence:

The New York Times wrote:

In one conversation after another he has asked aides and advisers a pointed question: Is Mike Pence loyal?

Mr. Trump has repeated the question so many times that he has alarmed some of his advisers.

A paranoid narcissist who sees betrayal and disloyalty everywhere.

In other words, thinking that everyone around him is just like himself.

TomOnBoard · 05-12-2018 3:47pm

I don't know if this was posted earlier and I missed it.

If its a dup. pls advise..

Anyway, Rudi seemingly failed to insert a space in a tweet after the G-20 meeting and set himself up for some very embarassing consequences. I'll leave it to yeerselves to judge...

"Mueller filed an indictment just as the President left for http://G-20.In July he indicted the Russians who will never come here just before he left for Helsinki.Either could have been done earlier or later. Out of control!Supervision please?"

For full story, see WaPo here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/05/rudy-giulianis-typo-became-an-anti-trump-message-he-blamed-twitter-this-atlanta-man-pranked-him/?utm_term=.9e96f48993cb

Generally another tour de force from Trump's Cyber-Security Czar...

prawnsambo · 05-12-2018 3:48pm

serfboard wrote: »

Yep, this is also reflected in what he is saying about Mike Pence:
A paranoid narcissist who sees betrayal and disloyalty everywhere.

In other words, thinking that everyone around him is just like himself.

Mike Pence is just about the only person he can't fire.

prawnsambo · 05-12-2018 3:54pm

@TomOnBoard Yep it's a dupe. See post #69

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-12-2018 3:57pm

http://g-20.in/
No matter how often I click it, it never gets old.

demfad · 05-12-2018 4:06pm

Part of the Flynn Memo refers to “related firsthand witnesses” being “forthcoming” after Flynn flipped. "Firsthand Witnesses". Who are they? And First hand witnesses to what or whom? Interesting.

aloyisious · 05-12-2018 4:21pm

demfad wrote: »

Part of the Flynn Memo refers to “related firsthand witnesses” being “forthcoming” after Flynn flipped. "Firsthand Witnesses". Who are they? And First hand witnesses to what or whom? Interesting.

Plus the use of the term "related", meaning to an event or family ties.

Water John · 05-12-2018 4:24pm

When you see Flynn getting a pass from Mueller for what he had done in exchange for cooperation, one must assume he has put some very senior people in the spotlight.

Penn · 05-12-2018 5:24pm

Water John wrote: »

When you see Flynn getting a pass from Mueller for what he had done in exchange for cooperation, one must assume he has put some very senior people in the spotlight.

Well I think as prawnsambo pointed out earlier, the charges he's getting a pass from are fairly minor ones. We don't know how some of the more serious charges which are likely to be brought against him might play out.

prawnsambo wrote: »

It seems that the "no charges" are in relation to relatively minor offences. 'Relatively' because according to the timeline posted earlier, he could well be charged with more serious offences.

He could still be facing sentences, though possibly reduced or suspended if indeed he's still helping with catching the bigger fish.

Pelvis · 05-12-2018 5:25pm

Water John wrote: »

When you see Flynn getting a pass from Mueller for what he had done in exchange for cooperation, one must assume he has put some very senior people in the spotlight.

His charges would only result in a prison sentence of between 0-6 months.

Even without a plea there was a chance he wouldn't have done any jail time anyway.

FreudianSlippers · 05-12-2018 5:28pm

Water John wrote: »

When you see Flynn getting a pass from Mueller for what he had done in exchange for cooperation, one must assume he has put some very senior people in the spotlight.

I agree, but I'd also point out that Flynn was only indicted on one count of making false statements which isn't the most serious crime in all the various indictments. To get zero jail time though, he must have given them something very juicy.

FreudianSlippers · 05-12-2018 5:28pm

Pelvis wrote: »

His charges would only result in a prison sentence of between 0-6 months.

Even without a plea there was a chance he wouldn't have done any jail time anyway.

Tell that to Martha Stewart!

Hurrache · 05-12-2018 5:33pm

Water John wrote: »

When you see Flynn getting a pass from Mueller for what he had done in exchange for cooperation, one must assume he has put some very senior people in the spotlight.

Could also be a carrot in light of Trump's suggestions he may offer pardons. Cooperate with me and I'll ask for no jail time, or risk sticking with the administration who may or may not get you out of the crap you'll find yourself in.

EltonJohn69 · 05-12-2018 5:56pm

El Trumpo looking bored and uncomfortable at the George Bush funeral.... he has a strange unnatural sitting posture....

prawnsambo · 05-12-2018 6:10pm

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

El Trumpo looking bored and uncomfortable at the George Bush funeral.... he has a strange unnatural sitting posture....

He had a glorious moment during the signing of the new NAFTA treaty. He signed his copy in the wrong place. The reactions of the others around him were priceless.

Also his reaction to Trudeau calling him "Donald"

Larbre34 · 05-12-2018 6:14pm

I wonder if theres any chance Trump listened to a word of former Canadian PM Mulroney's quite beautiful eulogy about leadership, statesmanship and friendship.

He is surrounded too a thousand years of Government experience, probably no chance he would absorb any of that either

UsedToWait · 05-12-2018 6:21pm

I'd love to hear from the Trump supporters at this stage?
Still a witch hunt?
Seems to be finding bigly witches.

Captain Obvious · 05-12-2018 6:22pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

He had a glorious moment during the signing of the new NAFTA treaty. He signed his copy in the wrong place. The reactions of the others around him were priceless.

Also his reaction to Trudeau calling him "Donald"

Probably thought it was another hush agreement and signed it David Dennison

duploelabs · 05-12-2018 6:43pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Probably thought it was another hush agreement and signed it David Dennison

John Baron

Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

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