Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

TomOnBoard · 14-03-2019 2:31pm

NH2013 wrote: »

Two years on today, anyone with any info on the timeline of the reports publication, other than the above memo stating it’s being worked on?

Thats the best/latest publicly available information I'd say..

jetfiremuck · 14-03-2019 3:09pm

Apportioning blame/ cause will have a huge financial effect regarding compensation/litigation going forward. This is separate from the tragic loss of the crew and the effect on the families involved. The report needs to be copperfastened right.

Stovepipe · 14-03-2019 4:55pm

They will not apportion blame; they are not allowed to, in their brief as an investigative unit. They may point out shortcomings in operational matters but will not directly state that person X is responsible. This is being closely watched by a lot of parties and I have no doubt that it will run and run, well after publication of the final report.

jetfiremuck · 14-03-2019 5:29pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

They will not apportion blame; they are not allowed to, in their brief as an investigative unit. They may point out shortcomings in operational matters but will not directly state that person X is responsible. This is being closely watched by a lot of parties and I have no doubt that it will run and run, well after publication of the final report.

Sooo. You’re saying that they won’t state in the final report that the Helicopter mechanical was ok,re, fuel load etc no operational issues on that mission, ..... helicopter flew into terrain ? (All established in interim report already) Doesn’t leave much else out . It’s the helicopter replacement cost etc and who pays don’t you think at this stage?

14-03-2019 5:36pm

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Sooo. You’re saying that they won’t state in the final report that the Helicopter mechanical was ok,re, fuel load etc no operational issues on that mission, ..... helicopter flew into terrain ? (All established in interim report already) Doesn’t leave much else out . It’s the helicopter replacement cost etc and who pays don’t you think at this stage?

Before you decide that 'doesn't leave much out', you should take the time to read a selection of other reports. Just take the time to try understanding these things before you go arguing with people on the internet. It's not that difficult a thing to do.

http://www.aaiu.ie/reports/aaiu-investigation-reports

Stovepipe · 14-03-2019 8:24pm

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Sooo. You’re saying that they won’t state in the final report that the Helicopter mechanical was ok,re, fuel load etc no operational issues on that mission, ..... helicopter flew into terrain ? (All established in interim report already) Doesn’t leave much else out . It’s the helicopter replacement cost etc and who pays don’t you think at this stage?

They, like all AAIUs in Europe, are specifically not allowed to allocate blame. It is strictly just the facts of the event. What they can do is rule stuff out, tell you what the weather was like at the scene, tell you what was recorded on radar, tell you what the mechanical condition of the aircraft was, tell you about the condition of the wreck afterwards and provide pathological information about the crew. All of the AAIUs follow the same protocol and they all cooperate and they are all independent units. In saying that, some are more independent than others and subject to more or less political control. When this report comes out, it will be the most detailed one of it's kind, certainly in this country and it will undoubtedly be picked apart by interested parties.

MadYaker · 14-03-2019 8:28pm

I thought from reading this thread ages ago that people had gathered from media reports at the time that it basically came down to pilot error? Could be wrong there.

Irish Steve · 14-03-2019 8:38pm

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Sooo. You’re saying that they won’t state in the final report that the Helicopter mechanical was ok,re, fuel load etc no operational issues on that mission, ..... helicopter flew into terrain ? (All established in interim report already) Doesn’t leave much else out . It’s the helicopter replacement cost etc and who pays don’t you think at this stage?

I would respectfully suggest that you go and read the interim reports again, and then look very carefully at some of the issues that were raised in that interim report, the final report is likely to highlight in uncomfortable detail a number of very significant issues relating to equipment, services and data in use on the helicopter, and procedures laid down by the operator, all of those aspects merit considerable further investigation, as they were significantly contributory to the accident, and significant shortcomings by a number of organisations outside of the operator have been highlighted, what remains to be clarified is exactly how those shortcomings contributed to the eventual outcome.

TomOnBoard · 14-03-2019 9:07pm

MadYaker wrote: »

I thought from reading this thread ages ago that people had gathered from media reports at the time that it basically came down to pilot error? Could be wrong there.

You are quite wrong in your statement that "people had gathered from media reports at the time that it basically came down to pilot error"...

There were NO media reports from responsible outlets at the time that concluded pilot error... Many alluded to a multi- factorial accident, within which crew actions certainly demanded careful scrutiny, that being the meat of the AAIU investigation and reporting process.

At this stage, ANY responsible observer will be satisfied to await the final reports. There was an enormous amount of heat in discussions at the time on here and in other places (waaay more heat than light IIRC). That's done now! The process appears to be proceeding apace, and need to be allowed to arrive at a conclusion. No doubt, once the AAIU completes its work, batteries of lawyers and others will get involved in interpreting the final report to suit their own objectives. At that time, I'm sure we'll all have things to say then.

Just to say also, the preliminary AAIU reports etc will have already given rise to operational and safety changes, each one contributing to greater safety in operations. In addition, some serious soul- searching will hopefully have been undertaken by now within and between many other related organs of the State as to what/how our Air/Sea rescue and related services need to planned, organised and operated on a day to day basis.

Steve · 15-03-2019 12:10am

Still, 2 years on, regardless of the outcome of any report, they lost their lives on a mission to save others, lets respect that. )

jpfahy · 15-03-2019 12:24am

Whichever way you look at it two years is a ridiculously long time to wait for the final report. They must be waiting for a 'big other news' day during which to sneak it out.

faoiarvok · 15-03-2019 1:05am

jpfahy wrote: »

Whichever way you look at it two years is a ridiculously long time to wait for the final report. They must be waiting for a 'big other news' day during which to sneak it out.

Bulls**t.

The AAIU are an independent, professional, responsible organisation.

These reports are massively complex, and painstakingly researched and compiled. For comparison, I just looked at the last 5 final reports issued by the UK AAIB into commercial helicopter accidents, and 3 of those 5 were published over two years after the occurrence date, one of them took over 5.5 years to publish.

smurfjed · 15-03-2019 5:27am

regarding compensation/litigation going forward

Litigation by whom?

sasta le · 15-03-2019 10:39am

So in simple terms who and what was to blame?

FishOnABike · 15-03-2019 11:12am

sasta le wrote: »

So in simple terms who and what was to blame?

It generally isn't simple.

Most incidents are multifactorial. That's why it can take years for a final report.

Each of the factors has to be evidentially identified and steps to eliminate or mitigate the factors have to be identified and approved for the final report and its recommendations.

fixXxer · 15-03-2019 11:52am

sasta le wrote: »

So in simple terms who and what was to blame?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

Means Of Escape · 17-04-2019 5:32pm

faoiarvok wrote: »

Bulls**t.

The AAIU are an independent, professional, responsible organisation.

These reports are massively complex, and painstakingly researched and compiled. For comparison, I just looked at the last 5 final reports issued by the UK AAIB into commercial helicopter accidents, and 3 of those 5 were published over two years after the occurrence date, one of them took over 5.5 years to publish.

KLM/PAN AM 747 crash March 1977

Report issued October 1978

Means Of Escape · 17-04-2019 5:37pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

I would respectfully suggest that you go and read the interim reports again, and then look very carefully at some of the issues that were raised in that interim report, the final report is likely to highlight in uncomfortable detail a number of very significant issues relating to equipment, services and data in use on the helicopter, and procedures laid down by the operator, all of those aspects merit considerable further investigation, as they were significantly contributory to the accident, and significant shortcomings by a number of organisations outside of the operator have been highlighted, what remains to be clarified is exactly how those shortcomings contributed to the eventual outcome.

Many of the "arm chair investigators " as you called them ,have read the report,were on target from the offset and alluded to other factors outside of what you have listed above .

tretorn · 17-04-2019 5:49pm

Steve wrote: »

Still, 2 years on, regardless of the outcome of any report, they lost their lives on a mission to save others, lets respect that. )

Were they on a mission to save lives.

I thought they took off from Dublin to fly across the country to take someone with a cut finger off a boat. I dont think there was a threat of loss of life at any stage.

What happens now if people working on boats damage their fingers. I am presuming someone on board will have first aid training and be able to patch up the finger and the Captain can then bring the boat into land.

I really, really hope some lessons were learned after this accident.

Alkers · 17-04-2019 5:52pm

tretorn wrote:

I really, really hope some lessons were learned after this accident.

The incident could well have happened if they were training in the area, the reason for the call out didn't cause the crash.

tretorn · 17-04-2019 5:57pm

They wouldnt have been training in an area they didnt know in the middle of the night with no visibility.

You would expect anyone involved in training to be completely familiar with terrain, if not it would be the blind leading the blind.

It wasnt just this helicopter that went out, it was also the other helicopter that went as back up support and it appears from reports that the incident wasnt a matter of life and death.

Gadgetman496 · 17-04-2019 6:02pm

tretorn wrote: »

They wouldnt have been training in an area they didnt know in the middle of the night with no visibility.

You would expect anyone involved in training to be completely familiar with terrain, if not it would be the blind leading the blind.

It wasnt just this helicopter that went out, it was also the other helicopter that went as back up support and it appears from reports that the incident wasnt a matter of life and death.

The one that crashed was the backup support.

L1011 · 17-04-2019 6:18pm

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Many of the "arm chair investigators " as you called them ,have read the report,were on target from the offset and alluded to other factors outside of what you have listed above .

You were thread banned last year. It still applies. Have a day off the entire forum

mickdw · 17-04-2019 7:27pm

Means Of Escape wrote: »

faoiarvok wrote: »

Bulls**t.

The AAIU are an independent, professional, responsible organisation.

These reports are massively complex, and painstakingly researched and compiled. For comparison, I just looked at the last 5 final reports issued by the UK AAIB into commercial helicopter accidents, and 3 of those 5 were published over two years after the occurrence date, one of them took over 5.5 years to publish.

KLM/PAN AM 747 crash March 1977

Report issued October 1978

Wasn't that the Tenerife crash on the runway.
Cockpit voice recording would have solved that one outright rather quickly.

Alkers · 17-04-2019 7:30pm

tretorn wrote:

They wouldnt have been training in an area they didnt know in the middle of the night with no visibility.

tretorn wrote:

You would expect anyone involved in training to be completely familiar with terrain, if not it would be the blind leading the blind.

Of course they would, that's how they get their skillsets. You don't expect them to be only able to operate within areas they're personally very familiar with? How on earth would they cover the whole island in that case? The accident absolutely should not have happened but thats not to question the validity of it being out in the first place.

irishgeo · 17-04-2019 7:30pm

ba flight 38 took 2 years.

EchoIndia · 17-04-2019 11:21pm

mickdw wrote: »

Wasn't that the Tenerife crash on the runway.
Cockpit voice recording would have solved that one outright rather quickly.

You might want to research the Tenerife accident - cockpit recordings from the KLM aircraft were a central element in determining what went wrong.

skallywag · 05-01-2020 6:54pm

irishgeo wrote: »

any word on the final report?

It has been available for some time but seems that some are not happy with the content. Not sure when it will see public release.

AlekSmart · 05-01-2020 9:36pm

skallywag wrote: »

It has been available for some time but seems that some are not happy with the content. Not sure when it will see public release.

Wow...I was'nt aware that a factual based document such as an AAIU report,interim or final,would be retained because of the perceived "unhappiness" of individuals.

Surely this is not the case ?

skallywag · 05-01-2020 9:49pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Wow...I was'nt aware that a factual based document such as an AAIU report,interim or final,would be retained because of the perceived "unhappiness" of individuals.

Surely this is not the case ?

It's the crew's families.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Comments