The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

One of his NH horses cantered home midweek - can't remember the name but was impressive.

Edit: Solo Saxophone at Wetherby on Friday.

Despite being difficult beforehand, Cap Francais ran a fine staying on race in the Listed class Blue Riband Trial today at Epsom.

You'd think that such an unexposed horse would go on to much better things. I'd think that he's a typical Frankel, hard to assess, a bit highly strung and likely to be strongly punted on the next time he runs. If he runs in anyways half decent company next time I'll be gladly opposing him because he looks unreliable to my eyes.

Last week last year's 2,000 Guineas fourth Elarqam once again failed to live up to expectations as he slumped to a 5 3/4L 4th place finish in the Gp3 Brigadier Gerard stakes at Sandown. He ran on in the end leaving punters none the wiser as to whether he's gone at the game or just needs some reinventing.

tryfix wrote: »

Veracious gets her group win at Sandown and impresses the commentators in regards to her future chances of improving again. Through the 2nd this was very much a group 3 class race and the result shouldn't be bigged up.

To my eyes Veracious was showing some quirks with her pulling early on and not finding much in front. The interviewer tried to get Ryan Moore to big up her potential but Ryan wasn't interested in taking the offer. I've huge respect for Stoute's patient training tactics but I think she's one to take on in the future.

True to form the favourite Veracious lets backers down like a ton of bricks today.

Is Michael Stoute's record of improving horses from 3-4 more of a colt thing than a filly thing?

Itziger wrote: »

Seemingly a fella called Galileo had the 1000 Guineas winner. Imagine if we had a thread on him.

Ah that fella's stock don't need analysis they just get on with the job while the Frankels need a whole squad of psychiatrists to help them complete their tasks. :pac:

Deleted User wrote: »

More prize money for frankel than galileo year to date. There's a whole world beyond tipperary lads.

Newmarket's beyond Tipp as is Epsom.

Jaysus, lads, call me old-fashioned (and you'd be right) but are we really comparing 1,000 Guineas, 2,000 Guineas, Oaks, Derbies, St Legers, Lockinge, Eclipse, Arcs, King Georges and the list goes on to some of the Dubai stuff and a few more Group Races??

You'd be laughed out of court.

This year he has had Mehdaayih for the Oaks and she was an impressive winner of the Cheshire oaks this week.

Cap Francais is 2nd fav for the Lingfield Derby Trial after his fast finishing 2nd in the Blue Ribbon Trial at Epsom. He has 2 Fillies in the French 1,000 Guineas and not too much else going on.




The probably continued meteoric rise of Kingman is a big threat to Frankel's crown as darling stallion of the UK media and Juddmonte won't be slow about diverting their better mares from Frankel to Kingman if the results are going to be better.

Deleted User wrote: »

I respect your opinion but not sure I can agree with this. Frankel has had zero flashy 2 year olds and plenty of improvers. All his g1 winners are 3+ I think? Even this year look at dream castle or master of reality winning the vintage crop with some very big names in behind (could be a one off)

Anyone can pick through progeny and find what they want to see. The facts are stakes winners and prize money. IMHO.

I'd like to be able to agree with you, because for a start the Frankel input is only half the story as his progeny will have as much input from their various dams as they will from having Frankel as their sire. There's one small problem in that the Frankels in their many shapes and sizes tend to follow certain patterns. Frankel had no shortage of flashy 2yos in his first seasons at stud until trainers observed that his first crop 2yos weren't training on too well and they may have made then made the decision to not over try them as 2yos. His first crop had the flashy 2yo Fair Eva who won a gp3 at Royal Ascot, Cunco his very first 2yo winner was multiple listed placed As a 2yo, Queen Kindly won a Gp2 2yo race, Frankuus won at listed and Gp3 as a 2yo. None of them developed into Gp1 placed horses.

G3 winning 2yo Elarqam made it as far as 4th in the Guineas, the O'Brien pair of 2yo Gp winners Nelson and Rostropovich showed how bringing them along slowly would allow them to retain their form from season to season but they ended up reaching their highest ratings when used for the ignoble task of pacemaking.

As regards stakes winners and prize money, I'd suggest you look at Australian racing where there are a silly amount of big money G1 and G2 races which are often won by OR 108 to OR 113 type horses who wouldn't have the opportunity to win those kinds of races or prize money in Europe. Proper Ratings are the mark of a horses ability.


I used the term early bloomers rather than precocious to try to indicate that in general his stock are close to their peaks within the first half dozen races of their careers as they move from their maiden wins to group company.

For example you quote the 5 year old G1 winner Dream Castle as an example of how the Frankels can improve with age. I myself was quite taken with what Dream Castle was doing at the start of this year out in Meydan, but then he came badly unstuck when he ran against a hardened G1 field on World Cup Night.

Dream Castle has actually improved very little from the May of his 3yo career. On only his third ever run he ran to RPR 114, OR 113 when 5th in 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket. He failed to progress from that run until he was Gelded at the end of his first season in Dubai, it was this operation that allows horses to concentrate on their racing that allowed him to improve through 3 races in the Spring in Meydan. He improved by 4Lbs OR and just 2Lbs RPR due to being gelded, that's a standard response to being gelded rather than being an age related improvement of form from racing experience. He has apparently failed to improve on his initial G1 win.
Similarly Master Of Reality's surprise G3 win at the Curragh was down to it being his first run since he was gelded and Capri simply ran way below his previous form in that race. The form equals a neck beating of a 6yo 110 rated horse who was giving him a pound, a long way from what could be expected of Capri.

Of all Frankels Gp1 winners only the mighty Cracksman has shown proper improvement from repeatedly racing in Gp1 company and his biggest improvement was brought on by finally running on the Soft Ground that he needed to produce his best. He also never improved his rating from his initial G1 win as a 3yo.

Without Parole hit OR 119, RPR 120 on his 4th ever run. He has seemingly declined in his 4 runs since to RPR 109 despite being trained by a master trainer with a good handle on the Frankels. He has failed so far to improve on his G1 win.

Soul Stirring hit her peak RPR 112 as a G1 winning 2yo and repeated that RPR twice in her next 3 runs as a 3yo one of which was a G1 win over a stepped up to 12f. She failed to improve on her first G1 win.

Call The Wind won his G1 after being stepped up to 2m4f at the end of his first season. He appears to not have run prior to his 4th year and was Gelded before his first run. He apparently improved 2LB on RPR ratings from his 114 G1 win in France to 116 for his 3rd over 2m in Meydan.


There's a theme there that says the Frankels tend to flatten out once they've reached G1 company and it's instructive that many of his stock seem to need gelding to keep/get them interested in the game.


Another one of his stock that hit a good height of form is Monarchs Glen who couldn't win a pattern race until he was Gelded and went on to to achieve a G1 level 121 in Listed company but he bombed out in two runs in G1 company after that. These Frankels often seem to lose their form in true G1 company.

The need to geld so many of his better stock points to temperament problems or more correctly I think they start to think about the game after a short enough time racing.

Yum yum, another wide margin Oaks Trial winner for Frankel and Gosden with Anapurna. A win in the Oaks would fill a big hole in Frankel's CV by providing him with a proper middle distance 3yo filly.

Cap Francais predictably failing to find the improvement that his Epsom 2nd promised.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would you restrict it to UK prize money? That's what I call being selective.

World wide stats for EU sires here, use any stats you like to tell me he's not a success: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=100&nao=2&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

I asked you to back your claim that Frankel is a success.
You pointed me to a General Sire Year To Date 2019 Worldwide money list.
It show Frankel in 6th place in the money list for 2019, with his top earner shown as Senator (2014) (GB).

It took me a while to trace Senator as he is not easily found.
He was exported to Hong Kong in 2017 and renamed Simply Brilliant.

He had two UK wins, at Leicester and Carlisle, and has had six wins in Hong Kong since.
He has earnings of GBP 1,008,663 (converted) and has an RPR 113.
In Great Britain his earnings were GBP 4,528 + 3,234 + 466 +1,404 = GBP 9,632.
Another way of stating that is just over 99% of his earnings are in Hong Kong.
His most recent earnings were GBP 207,207 for 3rd place in the Group 1 Hong Kong Mile.

This is similar to the record Frankel's Japan Oaks Group 1 winner Soul Stirring.
She won GBP 868,131 for that Oaks, and has GBP 1,487,526 lifetime earnings. The Oaks win was her third lifetime win from four starts.
Since then she has run seven times for one 3rd place.

Money won in countries where the prizemoney is multiples of that earned in Europe is one measure of success.

What I prefer as a measure of sire ability is Group race wins, and preferably Group 1 and Classic wins.
I think Frankel progeny have difficulty getting beyond Group 3 level, with the exception of Cracksman, whose dam line is similar to the multiple Group 1 winner Golden Horn.

Perhaps Frankel can shine in the three remaining English classic races, the Oaks, Derby, St Leger.
As pointed out above he was not represented in the first two classics.
He has a runner in a French classic tomorrow.

Frankel has two runners, Suphala and East, in the Poule d'Essai des Pouliches, at 15:30 tomorrow, ParisLongchamp, 10 runners.
My pick is Watch Me.
The ground is heavy, and Longchamp heavy can be heavy heavy.