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5.1 audio on Saorview

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  • 04-03-2016 9:56pm
    #1
    kazoo106
    Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭


    Is it for a technical reason that RTE only broadcast in Stereo on Saorview. The NI Freeview HD MUXs transmit in 5.1 surround.
    Is this a limitation of DVBT vs DVBT2 or is it that RTE cannot be bothered (much like the terrible artifacts on BBC sourced programmes) ?


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    #2
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    kazoo106 wrote: »
    Is it for a technical reason that RTE only broadcast in Stereo on Saorview. The NI Freeview HD MUXs transmit in 5.1 surround.
    Is this a limitation of DVBT vs DVBT2 or is it that RTE cannot be bothered (much like the terrible artifacts on BBC sourced programmes) ?

    The latter.


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    #3
    mackersdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭mackersdublin


    Both of RTE's HD channels are only in Stereo on Virgin Media too

    UTV Ireland is the only Irish based HD channel which broadcasts Dolby audio on VM


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    #4
    Jpmarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Jpmarn


    All Saorview approved equipment are capable of receiving Dolby 5.1 sound.


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    #5
    swoofer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,416 ✭✭✭swoofer


    why wont saorview broadcast 5.1 if they have the kit?


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    #6
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Digging up an old thread but Heat on RTE2 tonight would very much benefit from surround sound!


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    #7
    Simi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Simi


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Digging up an old thread but Heat on RTE2 tonight would very much benefit from surround sound!

    If I recall it's not even full 1920x1080 either. It's 1440x1080 stretched to fill the frame. No reason as to why. It's not like they don't have the bandwidth to spare


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    #8
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Simi wrote: »
    If I recall it's not even full 1920x1080 either. It's 1440x1080 stretched to fill the frame. No reason as to why. It's not like they don't have the bandwidth to spare

    Except they would have to pay for the extra (unused) bandwidth.

    The whole system of charges on Saorview needs reworking. Unused bandwidth is just burnt off. Each channel pays for the bandwidth it uses as a proportion of all used bandwidth.

    All main channels should be in HD, while +1 and news channels can be in 720 by 576. It would mean that TG4 and Virgin would pay more, and RTE could go full HD on RTE1 and RTE2.


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    #9
    lgs 4
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭lgs 4


    Dolby Digital sound is only available with full HD 1920x1080


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    #10
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    lgs 4 wrote: »
    Dolby Digital sound is only available with full HD 1920x1080

    First World problems I know but which Minister or body looks after this?


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    #11
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    athlone573 wrote: »
    First World problems I know but which Minister or body looks after this?

    Eamon Ryan TD is the Minister for Transport and the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communication


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    #12
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    Given how few channels are on Saorview they really should just throw the kitchen sink at it with HD and top notch sound. We are hardly struggling for bandwidth, meanwhile the market is shifting to streaming services.

    Saorview has a big opportunity to be relevant but it needs to be state of the art in terms of broadcasting technology standards.

    The Nordig system they use supports a lot.

    I could see a lot of people dropping Sky and Virgin over the years ahead for tv service and that’s where Saorview could see growth when combined with smart TVs and streaming services.


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    #13
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,385 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Does the current bandwidth of saorview allow all channels be in HD? Could they just make a sweeping decision that everything is in HD and split costs equally?


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    #14
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    dulpit wrote: »
    Does the current bandwidth of saorview allow all channels be in HD? Could they just make a sweeping decision that everything is in HD and split costs equally?

    It costs about the same for a Saorview channel that an analogue channel used to cost. We used four analogue channels for RTE 1, RTE 2, TG4, and TV3. We now use two Saorview channels, so if we needed a third channel, it would be no big cost. I think there is room for two more HD channels - TV3 (Virgin Media 1) and TG4.

    Also TG4 and Virgin Media use RTE's channels (built and paid for by RTE from their own funds without any Gov funding) and they both should pay more than they do, but that is a decision of the BAI. Otherwise they should build their own network.


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    #15
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    There’s no logic in hobbling Saorview though. We’ve hardly anything on it in the first place. At the very least it could be the gold standard for technical broadcasting quality.


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    #16
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    There’s no logic in hobbling Saorview though. We’ve hardly anything on it in the first place. At the very least it could be the gold standard for technical broadcasting quality.

    Yeah but cui bono?


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    #17
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,385 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Yeah but cui bono?

    The viewer, and possibly RTÉ?

    If my understanding is correct, there is a certain bandwidth for each mux on saorview. If nothing is broadcast or every ounce of bandwidth is used, the cost to RTÉ (2RN) is the same. But the agreement is that the cost of the mux is based on the relative bandwidth each broadcaster uses, so TV3 chose to go super fuzzy vision to pay less, leaving RTÉ pay more.

    If the above understanding is correct, then if there was a law made by the minister of communications and everything else that forced all broadcasters to broadcast on Saorview in Full HD, with appropriate sound/etc, and the costs being shared evenly per channel that would be fairer, right? It doesn't cost the broadcasters anything extra to broadcast on Saorview in HD apart from the carriage costs, right? They all have HD versions on Sky already...


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    #18
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    dulpit wrote: »
    The viewer, and possibly RTÉ?

    If my understanding is correct, there is a certain bandwidth for each mux on saorview. If nothing is broadcast or every ounce of bandwidth is used, the cost to RTÉ (2RN) is the same. But the agreement is that the cost of the mux is based on the relative bandwidth each broadcaster uses, so TV3 chose to go super fuzzy vision to pay less, leaving RTÉ pay more.

    If the above understanding is correct, then if there was a law made by the minister of communications and everything else that forced all broadcasters to broadcast on Saorview in Full HD, with appropriate sound/etc, and the costs being shared evenly per channel that would be fairer, right? It doesn't cost the broadcasters anything extra to broadcast on Saorview in HD apart from the carriage costs, right? They all have HD versions on Sky already...

    A simpler solution would be for RTE to broadcast only on Mux 1, and leave Mux 2 to for Virgin and TG4 plus the operating cost of that Mux plus payments to 2RN for the use of the hall (antenna sites, etc.). RT would save a bundle if that were so, but equally the other would pay more, and could go full HD at no extra cost over the use of Mux 2 - as they would use the vacant broadband they would be paying for anyway.


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    #19
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    That's all great in theory but my impression is that Virgin TV are very commercially minded and will fight this so it would take a very determined minister to push it through and it's not a big votewinner with the general public.


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    #20
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    athlone573 wrote: »
    That's all great in theory but my impression is that Virgin TV are very commercially minded and will fight this so it would take a very determined minister to push it through and it's not a big votewinner with the general public.

    That is why it is the way it is.


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    #21
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    They’ll be more commercially minded as people cut the cords and take down the dishes and they’re left with a SD feed and no viewers.

    Give it a few years and you’ll see a major shift to IPTV. Already 40% of those in the recent Comreg survey are saying they don’t watch broadcast tv anymore.

    Saorview has a big opportunity to become the source of Irish TV on many a smart television.

    If they don’t do that you’ll see drop off in viewers.

    It’s not 2001 and HD TVs are standard kit.

    The bandwidth charges are only notional anyway as they driven by licensing, not any real world cost.


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    #22
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    They’ll be more commercially minded as people cut the cords and take down the dishes and they’re left with a SD feed and no viewers.

    Give it a few years and you’ll see a major shift to IPTV. Already 40% of those in the recent Comreg survey are saying they don’t watch broadcast tv anymore.

    Saorview has a big opportunity to become the source of Irish TV on many a smart television.

    If they don’t do that you’ll see drop off in viewers.

    It’s not 2001 and HD TVs are standard kit.

    The bandwidth charges are only notional anyway as they driven by licensing, not any real world cost.

    I've no inside knowledge of RTE or VM but,just based on people I've spoken to:

    I suspect a lot more people watch broadcast TV than admit to it and have seen Line Of Duty, Tommy Tiernan or the Champions League / Six Nations.

    I very much doubt people are deciding whether to install an aerial based on whether they can get Virgin Media in HD or if RTE has surround sound. On the other hand they do like the convenience of a one box solution (from Eir or VM) to be able to record /watch Irish and UK channels easily even if it costs a bit more and has slightly worse picture quality.

    I would love if the Saorview platform had the same picture quality and functionality (catch up TV etc) as Sky / Freeview but given the size of the Irish market and the lack of any cohesive commercial interest that might make it happen, I don't see it, and I don't really mind, I'm happy enough that RTE have reasonable sports coverage and we can find local interest, music, documentaries there and TG4. VM is mass market stuff that I would rather watch on ITV.

    Anyway.


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    #23
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    athlone573 wrote: »
    I've no inside knowledge of RTE or VM but,just based on people I've spoken to:

    I suspect a lot more people watch broadcast TV than admit to it and have seen Line Of Duty, Tommy Tiernan or the Champions League / Six Nations.

    I very much doubt people are deciding whether to install an aerial based on whether they can get Virgin Media in HD or if RTE has surround sound. On the other hand they do like the convenience of a one box solution (from Eir or VM) to be able to record /watch Irish and UK channels easily even if it costs a bit more and has slightly worse picture quality.

    I would love if the Saorview platform had the same picture quality and functionality (catch up TV etc) as Sky / Freeview but given the size of the Irish market and the lack of any cohesive commercial interest that might make it happen, I don't see it, and I don't really mind, I'm happy enough that RTE have reasonable sports coverage and we can find local interest, music, documentaries there and TG4. VM is mass market stuff that I would rather watch on ITV.

    Anyway.

    That is why VM should go HD on Saorview. If the same programme is on ITV and VM, I watch it on ITV in HD rather than fuzzy vision, but in truth I do not watch much VM - it is low rent stuff mostly like old versions of programmes from ITV or US series long forgotten (if only).

    You do not have to wait for Christmas for turkeys.


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    #24
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    The issue is more when the VM & Sky boxes start to disappear.

    We’re yet to see the era where smart TVs and apps will ultimately dominate.

    If Saorview can provide those TVs with a source of live television in HD, it has a future and so do the terrestrial channels.

    Ubiquitous, gigabit fibre broadband will be a reality here within 5 years.


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    #25
    Jpmarn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Jpmarn


    None of the Irish channels have 5.1 Dolby Digital sound on the Sky platform. Any surround sound effect comes from Dolby Prologic system where the surround sound is decoded from a 2 channel stereo audio signal. The surround effects on films broadcast by RTÉ and other Irish channels won’t be as accurate than channels with 5.1 sound like BBC and Sky's own channels.


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    #26
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    Virgin Media in particular has an opportunity to really showcase their own technology on their CATV platform, but don't seem to bother.

    You'd think Virgin Media TV 1 at the very least would be broadcasting with all the bells and whistles on their own digital tv platform at the very least.


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    #27
    lgs 4
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭lgs 4


    If Virgin took their public service obligation seriously. They would be in HD on Saorview. The Broadcast Authority of Ireland are turning a blind eye to Virgin.


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    #28
    mackersdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭mackersdublin


    lgs 4 wrote: »
    If Virgin took their public service obligation seriously. They would be in HD on Saorview. The Broadcast Authority of Ireland are turning a blind eye to Virgin.

    Same could be said for TG4


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    #29
    lgs 4
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭lgs 4


    mackersdublin wrote: »
    Same could be said for TG4
    Yes your right


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    #30
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    athlone573 wrote: »
    I've no inside knowledge of RTE or VM but,just based on people I've spoken to:

    I suspect a lot more people watch broadcast TV than admit to it and have seen Line Of Duty, Tommy Tiernan or the Champions League / Six Nations.

    I very much doubt people are deciding whether to install an aerial based on whether they can get Virgin Media in HD or if RTE has surround sound. On the other hand they do like the convenience of a one box solution (from Eir or VM) to be able to record /watch Irish and UK channels easily even if it costs a bit more and has slightly worse picture quality.

    I would love if the Saorview platform had the same picture quality and functionality (catch up TV etc) as Sky / Freeview but given the size of the Irish market and the lack of any cohesive commercial interest that might make it happen, I don't see it, and I don't really mind, I'm happy enough that RTE have reasonable sports coverage and we can find local interest, music, documentaries there and TG4. VM is mass market stuff that I would rather watch on ITV.

    Anyway.

    Hate watching VM with the low quality fuzzy vision. It's most apparent when watching Champions League. Despise having to watch sport on crappy low res quality. In 2021 VM not having HD on Saorview is inexcusable.


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    #31
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Ryan should just pass a law which requires minimum HD for all channels. If they won;t play ball fine kick them off. They could shrug and point to VM and Sky as their primary platforms but a like like RTE and Long Wave it'll a case of not many people being able to kick up a mighty fuss and Virgin squirming when the small additional cost is revealed to the public.


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