The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

Fuzzy Clam · 06-12-2014 12:01am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I think we should hang on to RTÉ Radio 1 on LW 252KHz for as long as the audience is listening in to the service on this wavelength. The Irish people at home in Ireland or overseas who still regularly tune in should not be abandoned by RTÉ.

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-12-2014 12:09am

AwaitYourReply -

MW/LW spectrum isn't really useful for anything else, so who'd buy it?

ITU regulates spectrum and we're bound by international agreements regarding use of spectrum regardless of EU membership. Nice rant though :rolleyes: you do realise that EEA/EFTA states are required to implement legislation regarding the EU single market to maintain access to that market, but have no vote or voice in that legislation?

AwaitYourReply · 06-12-2014 1:43am

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

The platforms you are referring to are not as user-friendly for the current audience demographic that listens to RTÉ Radio 1 via LW 252KHz. The digital methods make little or no sense to many senior citizens such as our Irish senior citizens forced to emigrate and now residing in Britain with many of whom are just about getting by on a modest pension. RTÉ in theory, has no direct responsibility for those living outside the Republic however; morally it is inexcusable to direct the likes of Irish OAPs to other methods which in many cases may incur an additional expense if they wish to continue hearing Ireland's national public service broadcasting channel. LW 252KHz clearly works for this audience and should be left alone or else kept going until the latest possible date if the EU has a mandatory cut-off date fixed into the future.

AwaitYourReply · 06-12-2014 2:19am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

AwaitYourReply -

MW/LW spectrum isn't really useful for anything else, so who'd buy it?

ITU regulates spectrum and we're bound by international agreements regarding use of spectrum regardless of EU membership. Nice rant though :rolleyes: you do realise that EEA/EFTA states are required to implement legislation regarding the EU single market to maintain access to that market, but have no vote or voice in that legislation?

Do you seriously think that we have real clout in relation to European matters within the EU at present? You do know how many MEPs Ireland has versus countries like: Germany or Poland etc; in the European Parliament? We used punch well above our weight but as soon as we were told to vote a 2nd time in two separate referenda because the EU did not like our democratic decisions reached so they insisted we vote the right way next time round!

I suspect if the EU has a policy to clear spectrum on wavelength then it must be required for some important purpose especially if they want all member states to cease broadcast transmissions on AM Long Wave as they are hardly doing it for the sake of it. Oh by the way you're not too bad yourself at the ranting here either :rolleyes:

In the UK, there may be some annoyance as there are still some major services like BBC Radio 5 LIVE and TalkSport and a lot of UK local radio still seems to have a presence on MW over there. Of course BBC Radio 4 LW 198KHz was also saved from being switched off not too long ago following a lot of complaints received from those who found LW is how they wanted to receive updates regarding BBC Radio 4 rather than FM/digital etc;
Oh I'm delighted and thrilled that you enjoyed my post so much

Radio_Fan_67 · 06-12-2014 2:25am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

The platforms you are referring to are not as user-friendly for the current audience demographic that listens to RTÉ Radio 1 via LW 252KHz. The digital methods make little or no sense to many senior citizens such as our Irish senior citizens forced to emigrate and now residing in Britain with many of whom are just about getting by on a modest pension. RTÉ in theory, has no direct responsibility for those living outside the Republic however; morally it is inexcusable to direct the likes of Irish OAPs to other methods which in many cases may incur an additional expense if they wish to continue hearing Ireland's national public service broadcasting channel. LW 252KHz clearly works for this audience and should be left alone or else kept going until the latest possible date if the EU has a mandatory cut-off date fixed into the future.

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

winston_1 · 06-12-2014 10:43am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I suspect if the EU has a policy to clear spectrum on wavelength then it must be required for some important purpose especially if they want all member states to cease broadcast transmissions on AM Long Wave as they are hardly doing it for the sake of it.

There is no such EU policy. Various countries are doing it for one reason only. To save money. The same reason that they are closing SW output.

Digifriendly · 06-12-2014 12:02pm

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

What about those in NI who regularly tune into RTE radio 1 and cannot receive a decent FM signal?

Radio_Fan_67 · 06-12-2014 12:52pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

What about those in NI who regularly tune into RTE radio 1 and cannot receive a decent FM signal?

RTE believe very very few people in N.I listen via longwave, I have not seen any evidence that proves them wrong.

watty · 07-12-2014 2:46pm

Where are the proper independent surveys?

The MW turn off was underhand and dishonestly done. People are not good at making official complaints, nor was there any clear mechanism before 2FM turn off and later RTE 1 turn off. There is never any honest and proper PSB based public consultation about anything RTE does.

They waste millions of overpaid presenters, too many managers and DAB.

What RTE say they believe is always based on what the accountants have decided to do.

watty · 07-12-2014 2:56pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

No, only occasional programs. There has not been any Irish Shortwave service since the 1948 experiment.

UK puts stuff on R4LW claiming FM hasn't enough coverage (a bit over 99%), their DAB is less than 95% for portable.

FM coverage here is just less than 99%, perhaps 20,000 people need AM for good portable coverage.

Internet, Satellite and Cable are not portable (Mobile internet hasn't capacity for more that 1% of listeners, assuming NOTHING else was on Mobile, if no Radio Broadcast, also Mobile Coverage is really poor). Internet and Cable access unlike Broadcast Radio are not free access or universal.

If RTE was really on SW that would be nice. But they are not. Also it was purely cynical cost cutting to close MW. LW should only be closed if MW is being reinstated.

RTE and many others in Europe have forgotten what PSB Radio actually entails in terms of content and delivery.

This isn't about any European Directive, Digital Dividend, Spectrum reuse. It's purely soft method of saving money. Rather than U turn on DAB, or difficult decisions about over paid Presenters and too many Managers.

Fuzzy Clam · 07-12-2014 3:35pm

watty wrote: »

No, only occasional programs. There has not been any Irish Shortwave service since the 1948 experiment.

Actually 1953 probably. There was also Radio Oglaigh na h-Eireann in 1962 which carried some Radio Eireann programs.
Just because RTE do not operate any HF transmitters, does not make the RTE SW service any less legitimate. Its common practice for broadcasters throughout the world to rent tx time.

Sheldons Brain · 08-12-2014 1:06am

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

This may be true in relation to residential listeners, but there is no obvious solution for listening in the car.

STB. · 08-12-2014 3:19am

watty wrote: »

FM coverage here is just less than 99%, perhaps 20,000 people need AM for good portable coverage.

Internet, Satellite and Cable are not portable (Mobile internet hasn't capacity for more that 1% of listeners, assuming NOTHING else was on Mobile, if no Radio Broadcast, also Mobile Coverage is really poor). Internet and Cable access unlike Broadcast Radio are not free access or universal.

If RTE was really on SW that would be nice. But they are not. Also it was purely cynical cost cutting to close MW. LW should only be closed if MW is being reinstated.

RTE and many others in Europe have forgotten what PSB Radio actually entails in terms of content and delivery.

This isn't about any European Directive, Digital Dividend, Spectrum reuse. It's purely soft method of saving money. Rather than U turn on DAB, or difficult decisions about over paid Presenters and too many Managers.

Unfortunately this is all true. The accountants have taken over. What the RTE Authority need to do is to re-read their own charter. They are a PSB, they do have responsibilities.

They were allowed shut down the MW service on the back of LW existing, which they are now saying they will shut down. One would presume that the TX is part of the National Emergency Plan. Unlike the UK we dont have an established DAB natiowide networked service.

250k in the scheme of RTE budgeting is a drop in the ocean.

Have they received the Ministerial go ahead to do so ?

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

Or greatly under played by those polls. No market research will ever truly capture the numbers of individuals and cluster of individuals you have categosrised as anoraks and eccentrics who use the service. Surely the elderly and diaspora should also be allowed a fair hearing. Least you ignore the other relevant tecnical points made above. Nothing to see here ? Very much plenty to see if not for the penny pinching attempts being made alone.

STB. · 08-12-2014 4:15am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ireland is not alone in closing down longwave and medium wave. Next up is Germany and Poland, with France rumoured to be on the way out also.

swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/longwave-closures.html

To put LW closures in context in those countries.

Germany PSBs (DF and DK) ALSO has nationwide coverage via FM, AM, DRM and DAB+.

Poland PSBs (Polskies) ALSO has natiowide coverage via FM, AM and DAB+

France (RFI for example) ALSO uses FM MW LW and SW nationally and Worldwide.

DrPatrickBarry · 08-12-2014 11:58am

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car. I came across this post below does anybody know what what stream rate RTE broadcast at?

I would happily pay something to keep the LW what have we not been asked?

Radio stations stream at different rates so there is no quick answer. Usually internet stations indicate their streaming data rates in Kbs (Kilobits per second)... Some stream at 12 Kbs, other can stream at 128 Kbs... There are many rates in between. The higher the rate, the better the audio quality and the more bytes you have to download.

So for example, consider a station streaming at 56 Kilobits per second (which is a fairly decent quality).

There are 8 bits in a byte, so:

56 KiloBits per second divided by 8 = 7 KiloBytes per second

There are 60 seconds X 60 minutes = 3600 seconds in an hour.

7 KiloBytes x 3600 = Approximately 25 MB (Mega Bytes) per hour that you need to download.

Radio_Fan_67 · 08-12-2014 12:06pm

DrPatrickBarry wrote: »

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car. I came across this post below does anybody know what what stream rate RTE broadcast at?

I would happily pay something to keep the LW what have we not been asked?

Radio stations stream at different rates so there is no quick answer. Usually internet stations indicate their streaming data rates in Kbs (Kilobits per second)... Some stream at 12 Kbs, other can stream at 128 Kbs... There are many rates in between. The higher the rate, the better the audio quality and the more bytes you have to download.

So for example, consider a station streaming at 56 Kilobits per second (which is a fairly decent quality).

There are 8 bits in a byte, so:

56 KiloBits per second divided by 8 = 7 KiloBytes per second

There are 60 seconds X 60 minutes = 3600 seconds in an hour.

7 KiloBytes x 3600 = Approximately 25 MB (Mega Bytes) per hour that you need to download.

Im sure a few networks in the uk do all you can eat data. How many car radios on the road have longwave these days ? No more then 30% i would say.

watty · 08-12-2014 10:00pm

DrPatrickBarry wrote: »

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car.

It's totally not scalable to listen to radio on 3G ESPECIALLY if there is no cap.

It can only support a minority of listeners. Across ALL Channels

This is why
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/

4G/LTE and the so called Digital Dividend doesn't much help as the Mobile operators have too lax licence conditions and they won't put more capacity by having smaller Cells as it's more cost with no more income.

56 Kilobits per second is rubbish quality actually.

RTE should never have ended on MW.

Fuzzy Clam · 08-12-2014 11:20pm

watty wrote: »

56 Kilobits per second is rubbish quality actually.
.

It is but for speech its not much worse than an AM signal and without the interference.

marno21 · 08-12-2014 11:24pm

56kbps AAC-HC would be miles better than AM quality and would be almost on par with FM quality, especially for speech stations

Mycroft H · 08-12-2014 11:28pm

Still doesn't sort out driving in the car....

Fuzzy Clam · 09-12-2014 12:05am

STB. wrote: »

Or greatly under played by those polls. No market research will ever truly capture the numbers of individuals and cluster of individuals you have categosrised as anoraks and eccentrics who use the service. Surely the elderly and diaspora should also be allowed a fair hearing. Least you ignore the other relevant tecnical points made above. Nothing to see here ? Very much plenty to see if not for the penny pinching attempts being made alone.

The elderly and diaspora have a strong lobby. However, although the group have managed to gather many signatures on their petitions, I've seen little evidence as to how many people are actually listening to 252. In fact, if anything, the evidence is pointing more and more to the lack of listeners.

Radio_Fan_67 · 09-12-2014 12:22am

There was an article in the irish times today about a man in london who doesn't want to have to listen to RTE Radio 1 via his television because that involves "sitting still and staring at a blank screen" What the F#ck ?

Digifriendly · 09-12-2014 11:04am

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

There was an article in the irish times today about a man in london who doesn't want to have to listen to RTE Radio 1 via his television because that involves "sitting still and staring at a blank screen" What the F#ck ?

The vast majority of people do not listen to radio via their TV and this man's comments would not be untpyical IMHO.

Sam Russell · 09-12-2014 2:34pm

He is talking about getting RTE Radio one from satellite, as that is the only way to do it in London, apart from 252 LW. He probably has no other way of listening, whereas 252 LW can be received on a portable radio anywhere in his house. I think satellite receivers are anything but portable.

I presume he does not have broadband.

Radio has always been a poor relation. Recording of TV has been possible for
decades, but not radio as no epg, or any attempt by radio to be recordable.

STB. · 09-12-2014 5:28pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

I've seen little evidence as to how many people are actually listening to 252. In fact, if anything, the evidence is pointing more and more to the lack of listeners.

Much like DAB so.

Fuzzy Clam · 09-12-2014 7:38pm

STB. wrote: »

Much like DAB so.

Indeed.
However, a look through the various forums does show a fairly healthy interest in DAB. Not much in LW, the current discussion excepted.
The main problem being a lack of a network.
Different discussion.

Digifriendly · 09-12-2014 7:47pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Radio has always been a poor relation. Recording of TV has been possible for
decades, but not radio as no epg, or any attempt by radio to be recordable.

Can you not set a manual recording for radio on Sky?

Sam Russell · 09-12-2014 8:50pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Can you not set a manual recording for radio on Sky?

I know nothing about Sky.

No radios I know have a facility for recording radio programmes, or have series link, nor have an EPG. You might be able to record satellite radio channels but only as it looks like a TV show.

Oscarziggy · 09-12-2014 9:35pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know nothing about Sky.

No radios I know have a facility for recording radio programmes, or have series link, nor have an EPG. You might be able to record satellite radio channels but only as it looks like a TV show.

Yes you can record radio off a Freeview box --- I did a series link of "West coast Johnnie Walker " from BBC Radio 2 and also a series link of "The Missing Hancocks" on BBC Radio 4.
Regards

Sam Russell · 09-12-2014 10:44pm

Oscarziggy wrote: »

Yes you can record radio off a Freeview box --- I did a series link of "West coast Johnnie Walker " from BBC Radio 2 and also a series link of "The Missing Hancocks" on BBC Radio 4.
Regards

A Freeview box is not a radio - it is a TV box. The radio channel is just a TV channel without a video element. You still need a dirty great UHF aerial to receive it.

Oscarziggy · 09-12-2014 11:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A Freeview box is not a radio - it is a TV box. The radio channel is just a TV channel without a video element. You still need a dirty great UHF aerial to receive it.

Um yes I am aware of that ........ I was just saying that you can record radio programmes on a Freeview box.
Anyway ...........back to RTE closing LW 252.....
Regards

Sam Russell · 10-12-2014 12:36am

The point I am making is that 252LW is received on a portable, cheap, old fashioned radio. No need for Dab, Freeview, or satellite. Just the job for anyone longing to hear from home.

A long time ago (about 1980), I was in North Africa for a long time and could receive RTE on MW for about ten minutes about midnight after a Turkish station shut down, but just before RTE shut down and I could hear the late night news. It meant a lot at the time. This was before 252LW existed.

So 252LW should be retained, and the more other stations shut down, the less interference there will be and the further the reach of the signal.

Digifriendly · 10-12-2014 10:35am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point I am making is that 252LW is received on a portable, cheap, old fashioned radio. No need for Dab, Freeview, or satellite. Just the job for anyone longing to hear from home.

A long time ago (about 1980), I was in North Africa for a long time and could receive RTE on MW for about ten minutes about midnight after a Turkish station shut down, but just before RTE shut down and I could hear the late night news. It meant a lot at the time. This was before 252LW existed.

So 252LW should be retained, and the more other stations shut down, the less interference there will be and the further the reach of the signal.

Totally agree. I hope RTE do retain this esp. for listeners in NI and GB who can't get RTE1 on either FM or DAB.

Oscarziggy · 10-12-2014 11:36am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point I am making is that 252LW is received on a portable, cheap, old fashioned radio. No need for Dab, Freeview, or satellite. Just the job for anyone longing to hear from home.

A long time ago (about 1980), I was in North Africa for a long time and could receive RTE on MW for about ten minutes about midnight after a Turkish station shut down, but just before RTE shut down and I could hear the late night news. It meant a lot at the time. This was before 252LW existed.

So 252LW should be retained, and the more other stations shut down, the less interference there will be and the further the reach of the signal.

Couldn't agree more ---- don't know where the ability to record came from --- so I apologise if there have been some crossed wires somewhere.
Peace and goodwill to all men (and women).
Regards

Radio_Fan_67 · 10-12-2014 12:09pm

Hasn't the longwave 252 signal always been useless in London ? Some people go on about it as if it covers all of europe.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2014 12:53pm

The ability to record is just an example of how radio is the poor relation of broadcasting. It matters little compared to TV.

Mycroft H · 10-12-2014 1:38pm

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

Hasn't the longwave 252 signal always been useless in London ? Some people go on about it as if it covers all of europe.

Mate of mine saying he was getting it pretty clear in Antwerp about two weeks ago

Fuzzy Clam · 10-12-2014 3:07pm

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

Hasn't the longwave 252 signal always been useless in London ? Some people go on about it as if it covers all of europe.

Even in the Atlantic days, with higher power, the signal in London was reportably quite poor. I think it was attenuated by a range of hills.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2014 3:46pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Even in the Atlantic days, with higher power, the signal in London was reportably quite poor. I think it was attenuated by a range of hills.

Long wave bounces off the ionosphere, and as you move away from the transmitter, initially the signal fades and then strengthens when the reflection comes in. This skip distance is about where London would be - you get a better signal in Paris than London unfortunately. However, as the number of transmissions in Europe reduce, there will be less interference.

Fuzzy Clam · 10-12-2014 4:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Long wave bounces off the ionosphere, and as you move away from the transmitter, initially the signal fades and then strengthens when the reflection comes in. This skip distance is about where London would be - you get a better signal in Paris than London unfortunately. However, as the number of transmissions in Europe reduce, there will be less interference.

Daytime reception of LW and MW is groundwave. This is why the signals travel better over sea paths (excellent conductivity) and poorly over mountains etc.
There may be skywaving at night. Particularly noticeable on the upper end of the MW band.

Antenna · 18-12-2014 10:31am

In Co.Cork I monitored 252 last night Wed (at 10:30PM approx) and discovered Algeria were testing (I assume) digital DRM on 252kHz for several minutes with 'white noise' type interference on top of RTE. It was the worst CCI from Algeria to RTE on 252 ever. The transmitter then reverted to analogue and a strong tone appeared (more annoying than music/speech from another station in the background of a wanted station).

Last Saturday night I very briefly monitored 252 and Algeria were transmitting sweep tones.

watty · 18-12-2014 8:06pm

RTE is also on much lower power. There is French language station and R4 on LW are both better reception here. (Limerick)

On a GOOD early 1970 Koyo (3 x SW, LW, MW and 87 to to 180 in three bands) there are 3 x UK MW in daytime. Nothing on the Tesco radios or clock radios.

The 1956 Valve portable LW/MW/VHF German Philips performed nearly as good.

watty · 18-12-2014 8:56pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Daytime reception of LW and MW is groundwave. This is why the signals travel better over sea paths (excellent conductivity) and poorly over mountains etc.
There may be skywaving at night. Particularly noticeable on the upper end of the MW band.

All of MW is excellent here from an hour before dark in Winter, actually dark in Summer.
LW R4 fades twice a day due to Skywave and Groundwave interfering Dawn and Dusk. Probably all the MW & LW are lower power at night.

watty · 18-12-2014 9:01pm

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

Hasn't the longwave 252 signal always been useless in London ? Some people go on about it as if it covers all of europe.

LW is better in UK during day than MW was. RTE MW was over most of Europe at night. LW not so good at night.

So yes Manchester, Birmingham etc better on 252 during day, than MW RTE was, but not London. Night time MW was better in all of UK and most of Europe compared with 252.

The UK doesn't use their 279 allocation. Ireland should have swapped them 252 for it

(Algeria was too strong in London on 252).

We seem to have five MW allocations.

Also very many radios are made for USA Market, so no LW, They should have stuck with MW and done a new site in Wicklow for South UK.

During WWII the UK actually transmitted Athlone / R. Eirean from numerous English sites so the Irish TX couldn't be used by Luftwaffe.

Apogee · 19-12-2014 1:18pm

RTE News wrote:

The RTÉ longwave service is to be extended until at least 2017.

Chair of the Oireachtas Transport and Communications Committee John O’Mahoney said he was delighted at the decision of the RTÉ board to retain the service.

RTÉ Radio 1 LW will operate a full service in 2015, with reduced hours in 2016 before working towards a full shutdown in 2017.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1219/667931-rte-longwave/

Digifriendly · 19-12-2014 1:44pm

Apogee wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1219/667931-rte-longwave/

Good news indeed even if it is only a stray of execution.

Oscarziggy · 19-12-2014 1:53pm

Yes good news indeed --- who knows by 2017 we could all be walking around with implants under the skin automatically tracking whatever station you choose via satellite or 10G !!
Regards

watty · 19-12-2014 2:59pm

It's not really good news. They are just going to do it more stealthly. No viable alternatives other than MW.

galtee boy · 19-12-2014 3:34pm

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

Hasn't the longwave 252 signal always been useless in London ? Some people go on about it as if it covers all of europe.

I have a brother living in South West London and 252LW is quite listenable in his car during the day. I have been in the car with him over there and in my opinion its better than R4 LW is here in North Cork. LW252 is not crystal clear by any means, but is certainly usable by day,.

Antenna · 19-12-2014 7:58pm

galtee boy wrote: »

I have a brother living in South West London and 252LW is quite listenable in his car during the day. I have been in the car with him over there and in my opinion its better than R4 LW is here in North Cork. LW252 is not crystal clear by any means, but is certainly usable by day,.

Is that comparison using the same car radio at both locations ?

The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

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