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The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

The Cush

Announced this morning - http://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/press-releases/2014/0923/645685-rte-radio-1-moves-from-longwave-transmission/

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/static/2014/0821/638554-stay-tuned/
http://static.rasset.ie/documents/radio1/rte-radio-1-staytuned.pdf

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Fuzzy Clam

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I think we should hang on to RTÉ Radio 1 on LW 252KHz for as long as the audience is listening in to the service on this wavelength. The Irish people at home in Ireland or overseas who still regularly tune in should not be abandoned by RTÉ.

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

Hotblack Desiato

AwaitYourReply -

MW/LW spectrum isn't really useful for anything else, so who'd buy it?

ITU regulates spectrum and we're bound by international agreements regarding use of spectrum regardless of EU membership. Nice rant though :rolleyes: you do realise that EEA/EFTA states are required to implement legislation regarding the EU single market to maintain access to that market, but have no vote or voice in that legislation?

AwaitYourReply

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

The platforms you are referring to are not as user-friendly for the current audience demographic that listens to RTÉ Radio 1 via LW 252KHz. The digital methods make little or no sense to many senior citizens such as our Irish senior citizens forced to emigrate and now residing in Britain with many of whom are just about getting by on a modest pension. RTÉ in theory, has no direct responsibility for those living outside the Republic however; morally it is inexcusable to direct the likes of Irish OAPs to other methods which in many cases may incur an additional expense if they wish to continue hearing Ireland's national public service broadcasting channel. LW 252KHz clearly works for this audience and should be left alone or else kept going until the latest possible date if the EU has a mandatory cut-off date fixed into the future.

AwaitYourReply

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

AwaitYourReply -

MW/LW spectrum isn't really useful for anything else, so who'd buy it?

ITU regulates spectrum and we're bound by international agreements regarding use of spectrum regardless of EU membership. Nice rant though :rolleyes: you do realise that EEA/EFTA states are required to implement legislation regarding the EU single market to maintain access to that market, but have no vote or voice in that legislation?

Do you seriously think that we have real clout in relation to European matters within the EU at present? You do know how many MEPs Ireland has versus countries like: Germany or Poland etc; in the European Parliament? We used punch well above our weight but as soon as we were told to vote a 2nd time in two separate referenda because the EU did not like our democratic decisions reached so they insisted we vote the right way next time round!

I suspect if the EU has a policy to clear spectrum on wavelength then it must be required for some important purpose especially if they want all member states to cease broadcast transmissions on AM Long Wave as they are hardly doing it for the sake of it. Oh by the way you're not too bad yourself at the ranting here either :rolleyes:

In the UK, there may be some annoyance as there are still some major services like BBC Radio 5 LIVE and TalkSport and a lot of UK local radio still seems to have a presence on MW over there. Of course BBC Radio 4 LW 198KHz was also saved from being switched off not too long ago following a lot of complaints received from those who found LW is how they wanted to receive updates regarding BBC Radio 4 rather than FM/digital etc;
Oh I'm delighted and thrilled that you enjoyed my post so much

Radio_Fan_67

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

The platforms you are referring to are not as user-friendly for the current audience demographic that listens to RTÉ Radio 1 via LW 252KHz. The digital methods make little or no sense to many senior citizens such as our Irish senior citizens forced to emigrate and now residing in Britain with many of whom are just about getting by on a modest pension. RTÉ in theory, has no direct responsibility for those living outside the Republic however; morally it is inexcusable to direct the likes of Irish OAPs to other methods which in many cases may incur an additional expense if they wish to continue hearing Ireland's national public service broadcasting channel. LW 252KHz clearly works for this audience and should be left alone or else kept going until the latest possible date if the EU has a mandatory cut-off date fixed into the future.

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

winston_1

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I suspect if the EU has a policy to clear spectrum on wavelength then it must be required for some important purpose especially if they want all member states to cease broadcast transmissions on AM Long Wave as they are hardly doing it for the sake of it.

There is no such EU policy. Various countries are doing it for one reason only. To save money. The same reason that they are closing SW output.

Digifriendly

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

What about those in NI who regularly tune into RTE radio 1 and cannot receive a decent FM signal?

Radio_Fan_67

Digifriendly wrote: »

What about those in NI who regularly tune into RTE radio 1 and cannot receive a decent FM signal?

RTE believe very very few people in N.I listen via longwave, I have not seen any evidence that proves them wrong.

watty

Where are the proper independent surveys?

The MW turn off was underhand and dishonestly done. People are not good at making official complaints, nor was there any clear mechanism before 2FM turn off and later RTE 1 turn off. There is never any honest and proper PSB based public consultation about anything RTE does.

They waste millions of overpaid presenters, too many managers and DAB.

What RTE say they believe is always based on what the accountants have decided to do.

watty

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

RTE are not abandoning anybody abroad. Its available on more platforms than ever. Even SW for anyone with a suitable radio.

No, only occasional programs. There has not been any Irish Shortwave service since the 1948 experiment.

UK puts stuff on R4LW claiming FM hasn't enough coverage (a bit over 99%), their DAB is less than 95% for portable.

FM coverage here is just less than 99%, perhaps 20,000 people need AM for good portable coverage.

Internet, Satellite and Cable are not portable (Mobile internet hasn't capacity for more that 1% of listeners, assuming NOTHING else was on Mobile, if no Radio Broadcast, also Mobile Coverage is really poor). Internet and Cable access unlike Broadcast Radio are not free access or universal.

If RTE was really on SW that would be nice. But they are not. Also it was purely cynical cost cutting to close MW. LW should only be closed if MW is being reinstated.

RTE and many others in Europe have forgotten what PSB Radio actually entails in terms of content and delivery.

This isn't about any European Directive, Digital Dividend, Spectrum reuse. It's purely soft method of saving money. Rather than U turn on DAB, or difficult decisions about over paid Presenters and too many Managers.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

No, only occasional programs. There has not been any Irish Shortwave service since the 1948 experiment.

Actually 1953 probably. There was also Radio Oglaigh na h-Eireann in 1962 which carried some Radio Eireann programs.
Just because RTE do not operate any HF transmitters, does not make the RTE SW service any less legitimate. Its common practice for broadcasters throughout the world to rent tx time.

Sheldons Brain

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

This may be true in relation to residential listeners, but there is no obvious solution for listening in the car.

STB.

watty wrote: »

FM coverage here is just less than 99%, perhaps 20,000 people need AM for good portable coverage.

Internet, Satellite and Cable are not portable (Mobile internet hasn't capacity for more that 1% of listeners, assuming NOTHING else was on Mobile, if no Radio Broadcast, also Mobile Coverage is really poor). Internet and Cable access unlike Broadcast Radio are not free access or universal.

If RTE was really on SW that would be nice. But they are not. Also it was purely cynical cost cutting to close MW. LW should only be closed if MW is being reinstated.

RTE and many others in Europe have forgotten what PSB Radio actually entails in terms of content and delivery.

This isn't about any European Directive, Digital Dividend, Spectrum reuse. It's purely soft method of saving money. Rather than U turn on DAB, or difficult decisions about over paid Presenters and too many Managers.

Unfortunately this is all true. The accountants have taken over. What the RTE Authority need to do is to re-read their own charter. They are a PSB, they do have responsibilities.

They were allowed shut down the MW service on the back of LW existing, which they are now saying they will shut down. One would presume that the TX is part of the National Emergency Plan. Unlike the UK we dont have an established DAB natiowide networked service.

250k in the scheme of RTE budgeting is a drop in the ocean.

Have they received the Ministerial go ahead to do so ?

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

I believe the amount of elderly longwave listeners in the uk and their inability to listen to RTE via other methods has been grossly exaggerated by a handful of anoraks, egos and eccentrics

Or greatly under played by those polls. No market research will ever truly capture the numbers of individuals and cluster of individuals you have categosrised as anoraks and eccentrics who use the service. Surely the elderly and diaspora should also be allowed a fair hearing. Least you ignore the other relevant tecnical points made above. Nothing to see here ? Very much plenty to see if not for the penny pinching attempts being made alone.

STB.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ireland is not alone in closing down longwave and medium wave. Next up is Germany and Poland, with France rumoured to be on the way out also.

swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/longwave-closures.html

To put LW closures in context in those countries.

Germany PSBs (DF and DK) ALSO has nationwide coverage via FM, AM, DRM and DAB+.

Poland PSBs (Polskies) ALSO has natiowide coverage via FM, AM and DAB+

France (RFI for example) ALSO uses FM MW LW and SW nationally and Worldwide.

DrPatrickBarry

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car. I came across this post below does anybody know what what stream rate RTE broadcast at?

I would happily pay something to keep the LW what have we not been asked?

Radio stations stream at different rates so there is no quick answer. Usually internet stations indicate their streaming data rates in Kbs (Kilobits per second)... Some stream at 12 Kbs, other can stream at 128 Kbs... There are many rates in between. The higher the rate, the better the audio quality and the more bytes you have to download.

So for example, consider a station streaming at 56 Kilobits per second (which is a fairly decent quality).

There are 8 bits in a byte, so:

56 KiloBits per second divided by 8 = 7 KiloBytes per second

There are 60 seconds X 60 minutes = 3600 seconds in an hour.

7 KiloBytes x 3600 = Approximately 25 MB (Mega Bytes) per hour that you need to download.

Radio_Fan_67

DrPatrickBarry wrote: »

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car. I came across this post below does anybody know what what stream rate RTE broadcast at?

I would happily pay something to keep the LW what have we not been asked?

Radio stations stream at different rates so there is no quick answer. Usually internet stations indicate their streaming data rates in Kbs (Kilobits per second)... Some stream at 12 Kbs, other can stream at 128 Kbs... There are many rates in between. The higher the rate, the better the audio quality and the more bytes you have to download.

So for example, consider a station streaming at 56 Kilobits per second (which is a fairly decent quality).

There are 8 bits in a byte, so:

56 KiloBits per second divided by 8 = 7 KiloBytes per second

There are 60 seconds X 60 minutes = 3600 seconds in an hour.

7 KiloBytes x 3600 = Approximately 25 MB (Mega Bytes) per hour that you need to download.

Im sure a few networks in the uk do all you can eat data. How many car radios on the road have longwave these days ? No more then 30% i would say.

watty

DrPatrickBarry wrote: »

Living in Manchester I am trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to listen to RTE via 3g in my car.

It's totally not scalable to listen to radio on 3G ESPECIALLY if there is no cap.

It can only support a minority of listeners. Across ALL Channels

This is why
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/

4G/LTE and the so called Digital Dividend doesn't much help as the Mobile operators have too lax licence conditions and they won't put more capacity by having smaller Cells as it's more cost with no more income.

56 Kilobits per second is rubbish quality actually.

RTE should never have ended on MW.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

56 Kilobits per second is rubbish quality actually.
.

It is but for speech its not much worse than an AM signal and without the interference.

marno21

56kbps AAC-HC would be miles better than AM quality and would be almost on par with FM quality, especially for speech stations

Mycroft H

Still doesn't sort out driving in the car....

Fuzzy Clam

STB. wrote: »

Or greatly under played by those polls. No market research will ever truly capture the numbers of individuals and cluster of individuals you have categosrised as anoraks and eccentrics who use the service. Surely the elderly and diaspora should also be allowed a fair hearing. Least you ignore the other relevant tecnical points made above. Nothing to see here ? Very much plenty to see if not for the penny pinching attempts being made alone.

The elderly and diaspora have a strong lobby. However, although the group have managed to gather many signatures on their petitions, I've seen little evidence as to how many people are actually listening to 252. In fact, if anything, the evidence is pointing more and more to the lack of listeners.

Radio_Fan_67

There was an article in the irish times today about a man in london who doesn't want to have to listen to RTE Radio 1 via his television because that involves "sitting still and staring at a blank screen" What the F#ck ?

Digifriendly

Radio_Fan_67 wrote: »

There was an article in the irish times today about a man in london who doesn't want to have to listen to RTE Radio 1 via his television because that involves "sitting still and staring at a blank screen" What the F#ck ?

The vast majority of people do not listen to radio via their TV and this man's comments would not be untpyical IMHO.

Sam Russell

He is talking about getting RTE Radio one from satellite, as that is the only way to do it in London, apart from 252 LW. He probably has no other way of listening, whereas 252 LW can be received on a portable radio anywhere in his house. I think satellite receivers are anything but portable.

I presume he does not have broadband.

Radio has always been a poor relation. Recording of TV has been possible for
decades, but not radio as no epg, or any attempt by radio to be recordable.

STB.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

I've seen little evidence as to how many people are actually listening to 252. In fact, if anything, the evidence is pointing more and more to the lack of listeners.

Much like DAB so.

Fuzzy Clam

STB. wrote: »

Much like DAB so.

Indeed.
However, a look through the various forums does show a fairly healthy interest in DAB. Not much in LW, the current discussion excepted.
The main problem being a lack of a network.
Different discussion.

Digifriendly

Sam Russell wrote: »

Radio has always been a poor relation. Recording of TV has been possible for
decades, but not radio as no epg, or any attempt by radio to be recordable.

Can you not set a manual recording for radio on Sky?

Sam Russell

Digifriendly wrote: »

Can you not set a manual recording for radio on Sky?

I know nothing about Sky.

No radios I know have a facility for recording radio programmes, or have series link, nor have an EPG. You might be able to record satellite radio channels but only as it looks like a TV show.

Oscarziggy

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know nothing about Sky.

No radios I know have a facility for recording radio programmes, or have series link, nor have an EPG. You might be able to record satellite radio channels but only as it looks like a TV show.

Yes you can record radio off a Freeview box --- I did a series link of "West coast Johnnie Walker " from BBC Radio 2 and also a series link of "The Missing Hancocks" on BBC Radio 4.
Regards

Sam Russell

Oscarziggy wrote: »

Yes you can record radio off a Freeview box --- I did a series link of "West coast Johnnie Walker " from BBC Radio 2 and also a series link of "The Missing Hancocks" on BBC Radio 4.
Regards

A Freeview box is not a radio - it is a TV box. The radio channel is just a TV channel without a video element. You still need a dirty great UHF aerial to receive it.