Boom bust economy?

Sunny Disposition · 01-09-2019 12:08am

Greentopia wrote: »

I always hear the "it's a small open economy" reason as if that should explain why we can't keep things in a more steady state economically.

Denmark is a small economy with a similar population size and even smaller land mass.
Iceland (apart from the crash years) and with a population of only around 360,000 has managed to bounce back and remain on an even keel since then with very low unemployment. They both have very diverse economies, some of the lowest rates of income inequality in the world and consistency ranked in the top 5 happiest nations on earth and highest on the UN Human Development Index.

Norway also similar population and rankings. Yes they have oil, but it still only accounts for less than 4% of GDP and even if they never discovered it the country would still, according to economists and economic historians there still be "on par with Sweden and Denmark." https://sciencenorway.no/economy-forskningno-norway/what-would-norway-be-like-without-oil-money/1442935

We should be asking ourselves why they can manage to largely avoid boom and bust and we can't and what can we learn from them.

I think the problem in this country is we seem happy to put all our resources into foreign investment instead of developing enough indigenous industries leaving ourselves more open to outside shocks, don't invest in our people enough -affordable access to the best education for everyone, not just those who can afford it, have too much income inequality driven by the wrong government policies, allow neoliberal "market forces" to dictate everything causing lack of affordability and choice in the housing sector in particular, and have a tax system that is too narrow and inadequate to cater for the investment needed in radically improving public services.

We also have politicians who have little imagination and just follow the Anglo-Saxon economic model in the UK particularly instead of drawing from and copying aspects of the best examples from other similar size economies in Europe that manage to do some things better than us.

Interesting post, politicians certainly are a big part of the problem. But would we listen to anyone who wasn’t offering more of the same? Who genuinely was prepared to change course?

anewme · 01-09-2019 10:45am

I've been through a couple of boom to bust cycles now.

I'd like to cash out before the next one, but I'm not sure I'll be able to.

The trick is to keep ploughing ahead and not get pulled down by either cycle. Dont lose the run of yourself. Anyone who kept working even in an ok job through the last recession has to be in a financially good place now.

Many people I know are now saddled with rubbish apartments in Sunny Beach from the last recession and interest only mortgages on their homes. So you exhaggersted your earnings to get your mortgage and somehow it's the Banks fault?

Technology and automation are big game changers coming for us. I hope to cash out before that impact.

Mad_maxx · 01-09-2019 10:48am

Greentopia wrote: »

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We’re a small open economy that’s totally exposed to external shocks, brexit will be the next big one. Things go pear shaped here fast but recover reasonably quickly. I work in construction so have seen a few booms and busts at this stage.

I always hear the "it's a small open economy" reason as if that should explain why we can't keep things in a more steady state economically.

Denmark is a small economy with a similar population size and even smaller land mass.
Iceland (apart from the crash years) and with a population of only around 360,000 has managed to bounce back and remain on an even keel since then with very low unemployment. They both have very diverse economies, some of the lowest rates of income inequality in the world and consistency ranked in the top 5 happiest nations on earth and highest on the UN Human Development Index.

Norway also similar population and rankings. Yes they have oil, but it still only accounts for less than 4% of GDP and even if they never discovered it the country would still, according to economists and economic historians there still be "on par with Sweden and Denmark." https://sciencenorway.no/economy-forskningno-norway/what-would-norway-be-like-without-oil-money/1442935

We should be asking ourselves why they can manage to largely avoid boom and bust and we can't and what can we learn from them.

I think the problem in this country is we seem happy to put all our resources into foreign investment instead of developing enough indigenous industries leaving ourselves more open to outside shocks, don't invest in our people enough -affordable access to the best education for everyone, not just those who can afford it, have too much income inequality driven by the wrong government policies, allow neoliberal "market forces" to dictate everything causing lack of affordability and choice in the housing sector in particular, and have a tax system that is too narrow and inadequate to cater for the investment needed in radically improving public services.

We also have politicians who have little imagination and just follow the Anglo-Saxon economic model in the UK particularly instead of drawing from and copying aspects of the best examples from other similar size economies in Europe that manage to do some things better than us.

Ireland is not especially unequal

Mad_maxx · 01-09-2019 10:49am

riclad wrote: »

This boom is driven by investment by multinational,s ,tourism,
a booming economy in europe and low interest rates .
It,s real in that its not based on easy credit, or crazy lending by bank,s ,
or rising house price,s ,or people borrowing money to buy property .
There were a few people who predicted a bust in 2007,
but they were ignored ,
until suddenly house,s price,s fell, some people were unable to pay their loan,,s and house,s were worth less than the mortgages that were used to buy them.

"booming economy in Europe"

Europe is doing terrible economically, our economy tracks the health of the S+P in the USA

s8n · 01-09-2019 10:50am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwcmAe12QKY

Mad_maxx · 01-09-2019 10:59am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

We need to work on protecting our economy from the world economy a bit. Also the uk.

Brexit is going to destroy our economy.

It ( brexit) will savage the beef industry but its far too reliant on the UK anyway

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 11:50am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

"booming economy in Europe"

Europe is doing terrible economically, our economy tracks the health of the S+P in the USA

Yeah Europe isn’t doing great as a whole. Germany is on the brink of recession technically but it’s not doing well in any case. Some parts of Europe are doing ok. But the eurozone is not booming as a whole.

01-09-2019 1:16pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah Europe isn’t doing great as a whole. Germany is on the brink of recession technically but it’s not doing well in any case. Some parts of Europe are doing ok. But the eurozone is not booming as a whole.

Yeah but we also have very low inflation and unemployment rates that are lower than they have been in over a decade.

It's not just the Eurozone -- the global aconomy is decelerating, from Dehli to Detroit. Most developed and emerging economies are growing at a slower pace than was forecast this time last year. The UK is facing a real risk of recession.

Europe has systemic problems in addressing economic growth (weak monetary policy and ideologically-driven economic policy -- an almost pathological obsession with running surpluses), but lets not lose the run of ourselves. In a global context, Europe is generally in-line with a trend towards a global slow-down.

I see sheep · 01-09-2019 2:47pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Paddy loves boom and bust, politicians would rather give the pensioners and dole wasters a fiver a week than pay down some of our national debt or save money for times when our economy needs a cash boost.
But Paddy wouldn't have it any other way.

Paddy bailed out the banks who destroyed the economy.
But yes it's the pensioners and people out of work who are to blame of course.

EmmetSpiceland · 01-09-2019 2:57pm

I see sheep wrote: »

Paddy bailed out the banks who destroyed the economy.
But yes it's the pensioners and people out of work who are to blame of course.

Don’t forget the bond holders, they got “protected” too. Which, I believe, was on the advice of Peter Sutherland, who had “vested” interests in that.

Montage of Feck · 01-09-2019 4:37pm

Greentopia wrote: »

I always hear the "it's a small open economy" reason as if that should explain why we can't keep things in a more steady state economically.

Denmark is a small economy with a similar population size and even smaller land mass.
Iceland (apart from the crash years) and with a population of only around 360,000 has managed to bounce back and remain on an even keel since then with very low unemployment. They both have very diverse economies, some of the lowest rates of income inequality in the world and consistency ranked in the top 5 happiest nations on earth and highest on the UN Human Development Index.

Norway also similar population and rankings. Yes they have oil, but it still only accounts for less than 4% of GDP and even if they never discovered it the country would still, according to economists and economic historians there still be "on par with Sweden and Denmark." https://sciencenorway.no/economy-forskningno-norway/what-would-norway-be-like-without-oil-money/1442935

We should be asking ourselves why they can manage to largely avoid boom and bust and we can't and what can we learn from them.

I think the problem in this country is we seem happy to put all our resources into foreign investment instead of developing enough indigenous industries leaving ourselves more open to outside shocks, don't invest in our people enough -affordable access to the best education for everyone, not just those who can afford it, have too much income inequality driven by the wrong government policies, allow neoliberal "market forces" to dictate everything causing lack of affordability and choice in the housing sector in particular, and have a tax system that is too narrow and inadequate to cater for the investment needed in radically improving public services.

We also have politicians who have little imagination and just follow the Anglo-Saxon economic model in the UK particularly instead of drawing from and copying aspects of the best examples from other similar size economies in Europe that manage to do some things better than us.

We need a Viking party to contest the next election.

riclad · 01-09-2019 4:52pm

I see 2 problems we have now, high rental cost,s ,
lack of quality rental housing in many area,s .
This will tend to put off small companys from investing in ireland.

The lack of high speed broadband outside, citys and large towns .
Some rural area,s are already seeing a downturn in tourist,s
from the uk.
before brexit even happens .
After brexit irish good,s could cost 20 per cent more for uk consumers to buy .
Thats not even taking into account possible falls in the value of sterling
vs the euro.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 6:28pm

riclad wrote: »

I see 2 problems we have now, high rental cost,s ,
lack of quality rental housing in many area,s .
This will tend to put off small companys from investing in ireland.

The high cost of property is beneficial to those who have property. Imagine for a moment if we added all the property we need in Dublin in the morning. The cost pf property would fall. So property owners would be cross with the government who allowed enough property to be built because it interferes with their investments and retirement plans.

People who own property tend to be old, wealthy and vote. So the situation we have is not entirely accidental. It’s partly contrived to make sure that old, wealth voters, have their investments paid for by renters. Renters tend to be young, poor and less likely to vote.

So it’s not as simple as solving the problem. There are voters who are perfectly happy with the situation as it is, thank you very much.

dotsman · 01-09-2019 7:50pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Recession is the norm he said ..growth is unusual.

Well, when he makes ridiculous statements like that, then it's no wonder people don't listen.

RobbingBandit · 01-09-2019 7:58pm

Why do you think all the building work is going on at the moment the nature of a recession is the debtor comes to collect their payment you tell them it's at Bills house and Toms house then the magic of find the money begins when it can't be found nothing can be done no more money.

Metaphysical Macroeconomics keep on keeping on until they come to collect.

Quantum Erasure · 01-09-2019 9:20pm

dotsman wrote: »

Well, when he makes ridiculous statements like that, then it's no wonder people don't listen.

continuously increasing growth is unsustainable, recessions are inevitable in that economic model

beejee · 01-09-2019 9:47pm

The time to get ready for a global downturn was a year ago, 6 months minimum.

There's a lot to say that this next one will be the acid-test for globalism, in other words it's going to be truly bad.

Thinking of putting yourself in line for a decades long mortgage? New car that you don't need? Other extravagance? .. Don't do it. Think first. And still don't do it

Sunny Disposition · 01-09-2019 10:50pm

beejee wrote: »

The time to get ready for a global downturn was a year ago, 6 months minimum.

There's a lot to say that this next one will be the acid-test for globalism, in other words it's going to be truly bad.

Thinking of putting yourself in line for a decades long mortgage? New car that you don't need? Other extravagance? .. Don't do it. Think first. And still don't do it

It’s very hard for people to make decisions about buying houses nowadays, if the market didn’t fluctuate so dramatically it’d certainly be better. If the State had got behind a few big housing projects it could have been a great move and headed off a number of various problems, but no go.

dotsman · 01-09-2019 10:53pm

orli na nh wrote: »

continuously increasing growth is unsustainable, recessions are inevitable in that economic model

Of course recessions are inevitable. Nobody's stating otherwise.

But the statement I was quoting was implying that recessions are the normal state, and that growth is unusual.

Greentopia · 02-09-2019 10:11pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Interesting post, politicians certainly are a big part of the problem. But would we listen to anyone who wasn’t offering more of the same? Who genuinely was prepared to change course?

I don't know because we've never had an alternative with enough power to challenge the FFG monopoly. I'm more a radical than gradualist and reformist but I'm hoping the Social Democrats here can become a force in Irish politics in the coming years to take on the status quo so that at least we don't continue going backwards in areas like housing policy and social and income inequality.

They seem to take a lot of inspiration for their policies from the Nordic model, same as the Greens take theirs from the German Green Party. It's the only way I can see Ireland breaking out of the boom and bust cycle and making real progress socially, politically and economically.
Also the realisation has to come that if we want nice things like a properly run health service, well paying decent job opportunities for all and an education system designed to treat all our children equally we have to be broadly accepting that we have to pay a lot in taxes for it, and bring in a lot more people into the tax net than are at present.

Doling out crumbs before an election to a disgruntled electorate who continually choose the least worst option to rule for the next 4 years is a terrible way to run a society and economy. Root and branch reform is needed in many areas.

Greentopia · 02-09-2019 10:18pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Ireland is not especially unequal

I've lived here and in Sweden. Ireland by comparison is a way more unequal country. Way more. You don't have to believe me, but there's plenty of empirical evidence available to back this up.

InTheShadows · 02-09-2019 10:23pm

I see sheep wrote: »

Paddy bailed out the banks who destroyed the economy.
But yes it's the pensioners and people out of work who are to blame of course.

Paddy likes to piss on the poor and doff the cap to his supposed betters, always has always will.

02-09-2019 10:37pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Don’t forget the bond holders, they got “protected” too. Which, I believe, was on the advice of Peter Sutherland, who had “vested” interests in that.

Going to say something slightly irritating here "E", but even bondholders were burned -- admittedly not all of them, and years ago I would have said not enoughof them, but surprisingly the advice given to the Government has indicated their approach was correct.

Firstly, obligations that were sold on secondary markets, ie the headline bondholder selling his asset at a loss (or subsequent buyers selling at a loss from say 2009 - 2013) represent a so-called burning. Especially when you consider that a that such "paper" was bought by EU institutional lenders like the ECB, EFSF, ESM etc who (effectively) had a licence for printing money as good as if they were the Irish Central Bank of old.
In effect, such purchases on the secondary markets resulted in a direct cash transfer to the Irish Government and its financial system. It represented a real (and deserved) loss to private bondholders.

Secondly, there were some limited "haircuts" of Irish financial debt, where the ultra-conservative legal advisors would permit it. Although these were limited, and some were being litigated before the courts until fairly recently, when you look at the recovery in the economy over the past 5 years, it's probably safe to say that the Government was correct not to go Full Argentina.

Finally, it's rarely commented upon that there was a 'trickle-down' bailout effect to household borrowers. This was twofold. Firstly when the pillar-bank capital injections gave the banks, and their borrowers, the breathing space not to move on reposessions; and when the economy recovered, the space to allow write-down on mortgage arrears, which has happened and is ongoing.

The people who really got very little from the bank bailout were those of us who, at that time, had no loans/ arrears and had no pensions worth saving. But even we have benefitted from having returned to a very successful economy with almost full employment, and a reputation for adherence to the rule of law -- at least officialy.

I'm no apologist for the FF and FG governments. I am proud I that have never voted FG in my life and never will. But if financial stability and a pro-business economy is a legitimate aim of theirs, then they can fairly be said to have managed that objective successfully.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 03-09-2019 12:07am

InTheShadows wrote: »

Paddy likes to piss on the poor and doff the cap to his supposed betters, always has always will.

Who is Paddy? Friend of yours?

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 03-09-2019 12:10am

Greentopia wrote: »

I've lived here and in Sweden. Ireland by comparison is a way more unequal country. Way more. You don't have to believe me, but there's plenty of empirical evidence available to back this up.

Post transfers (ie tax) Ireland isn’t that unequal but I too would prefer to live in a society where we weren’t so unequal to begin with.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2019 11:01am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Post transfers (ie tax) Ireland isn’t that unequal but I too would prefer to live in a society where we weren’t so unequal to begin with.

The gaps have widened since the late 2000s. Wealthy people recovered from the recession and are experiencing a boom. Poor people didn’t recover, aren’t experiencing a boom in pay and are paying a greater proportion of their income than ever before on housing.

It’s going on the wrong direction.

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 11:17am

Greentopia wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Ireland is not especially unequal

I've lived here and in Sweden. Ireland by comparison is a way more unequal country. Way more. You don't have to believe me, but there's plenty of empirical evidence available to back this up.

I didn't know we were comparing Ireland to Sweden

Low income earners pay eight times more tax in Sweden than here, the left here don't want high taxes on anyone bar Denis o Brien, in other words they don't want the nordic model

As for the soc dems, wooly liberals of the highest order who are open borders fools

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 11:21am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Post transfers (ie tax) Ireland isn’t that unequal but I too would prefer to live in a society where we weren’t so unequal to begin with.

The gaps have widened since the late 2000s. Wealthy people recovered from the recession and are experiencing a boom. Poor people didn’t recover, aren’t experiencing a boom in pay and are paying a greater proportion of their income than ever before on housing.

It’s going on the wrong direction.

The generational gap is widening in terms of wealth

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

Wanderer78 · 03-09-2019 11:21am

Mad_maxx wrote:

I didn't know we were comparing Ireland to Sweden

It ll be interesting to see what happens the Swedish economy, as they try deal with their building boom

Wanderer78 · 03-09-2019 11:22am

Mad_maxx wrote:

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

I do think a land value tax would be a better approach

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 11:23am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote:

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

I do think a land value tax would be a better approach

Most people don't own land

Wanderer78 · 03-09-2019 11:34am

Mad_maxx wrote:

Most people don't own land

From my vague understanding of it, a lvt would reduce land hoarding, and put land to more productive use, rather than price speculation

BattleCorp · 03-09-2019 11:34am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

Grand in theory until you have a pensioner in a nice house or in a wealthy area but they are only on a state pension (€248.30 per week).

ednwireland · 03-09-2019 11:54am

orli na nh wrote: »

continuously increasing growth is unsustainable, recessions are inevitable in that economic model

thats what i think the earth is a closed system with limited resources - if yourre doing better someone somewhere is doing worse out of it. we shoudl really be spending our time making things last as long as possible not throwing things away for the next new shiney thing (guilty here as anyone else)

It needs a complete turn updside down of our thingking and i cant see it happening.

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 12:09pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote:

Most people don't own land

From my vague understanding of it, a lvt would reduce land hoarding, and put land to more productive use, rather than price speculation

Why not have both?

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 12:11pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

Grand in theory until you have a pensioner in a nice house or in a wealthy area but they are only on a state pension (€248.30 per week).

They can sell the house and buy another, young people make all the sacrafices nowadays, we can't constantly cosset the elderly

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 12:11pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'm very much in favour of property tax and no exemptions for pensioners

Grand in theory until you have a pensioner in a nice house or in a wealthy area but they are only on a state pension (€248.30 per week).

They can sell the house and buy another, young people make all the sacrafices nowadays, we can't constantly cosset the elderly

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2019 12:36pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Grand in theory until you have a pensioner in a nice house or in a wealthy area but they are only on a state pension (€248.30 per week).

That’s precisely the point of the tax.

In that situation the pensioner is living beyond their means. Their income has dropped to €248 a week so their lifestyle will obviously need to match it. Or else they’re living beyond their means. They just need to downsize like any other person in a capitalist society. It’s not a problem.

JohnnyFlash · 03-09-2019 12:48pm

The next recession is going to be another biggie. And it’s going to be about sovereign debt and the knock on impact of absolutely decimating the value of pension funds.

Mad_maxx · 03-09-2019 1:38pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

BattleCorp wrote: »

Grand in theory until you have a pensioner in a nice house or in a wealthy area but they are only on a state pension (€248.30 per week).

That’s precisely the point of the tax.

In that situation the pensioner is living beyond their means. Their income has dropped to €248 a week so their lifestyle will obviously need to match it. Or else they’re living beyond their means. They just need to downsize like any other person in a capitalist society. It’s not a problem.

It's about choices, the vast majority of people can't afford a million euro house, if you happen to live in one, don't expect the state to cover the costs of it

Besides, the state pension is more than enough to put away five hundred euro per annum for property tax

EmmetSpiceland · 03-09-2019 1:39pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The next recession is going to be another biggie. And it’s going to be about sovereign debt and the knock on impact of absolutely decimating the value of pension funds.

Ah now, J, which “barstool” economist did you get that one from? Or was it given to you through a toilet stall wall?

Are you talking about the state pension or “private” pensions getting decimated here?

I’m sure if you’re right, doubtful, we’ll never hear the end of it but if you’re wrong no one will remember so, I guess, it’s worth a “punt”.

BattleCorp · 05-09-2019 10:03am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's about choices, the vast majority of people can't afford a million euro house, if you happen to live in one, don't expect the state to cover the costs of it

Besides, the state pension is more than enough to put away five hundred euro per annum for property tax

The person in the million euro house has more than likely worked hard for it and provided it for themselves, the State didn't provide it so I don't see how the person living in that house is expecting the state to cover the costs of it.

Also, you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think it's easy for pensioners to save €500 per year for property tax. Many, and I mean a very significant number of pensioners have fcukall money and are living from week to week and they wouldn't have a hope in hell of forking out €500 on property tax.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-09-2019 10:31am

BattleCorp wrote: »

The person in the million euro house has more than likely worked hard for it and provided it for themselves, the State didn't provide it so I don't see how the person living in that house is expecting the state to cover the costs of it.

Also, you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think it's easy for pensioners to save €500 per year for property tax. Many, and I mean a very significant number of pensioners have fcukall money and are living from week to week and they wouldn't have a hope in hell of forking out €500 on property tax.

If they’re in such dire straits, then they could always sell their million Euro house.

Also, your situation above makes absolutely no distinction between wealth that they worked for, and inherited wealth which is the opposite of wealth that they worked hard for.

I’d have absolutely no problem with 95%inheritance tax above a nominal amount like €50,000.

People bang on as if they like meritocracy, but also support the notion of inheritance which is the opposite to meritocracy.

I did some work on the Grosvenor inheritance a few years back. The duke of Westminster inherited about £8bn when his father died (also inherited). All legally don’t through trusts which are set up to make sure the extremely wealthy don’t have to pay the kind of tax that normal people pay. Otherwise you’d lose the nobility (and I’ve no idea why that would be a problem)

the “bank of mum and dad” is now one of he main lenders for first time buyers and the single biggest lender. Meritocracy my hoop.

BattleCorp · 05-09-2019 10:08pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If they’re in such dire straits, then they could always sell their million Euro house.

I don't agree. Imagine you are in your mid 70's. The last thing you want to do is to sell your house and move. People in their 70's, 80's etc. usually have a support network of friends, relations and neighbours around them. Are you seriously suggesting that they have to up sticks and move away from all these supports to a strange area just because they are on a state pension and live in a big house?

Also, your situation above makes absolutely no distinction between wealth that they worked for, and inherited wealth which is the opposite of wealth that they worked hard for.

I’d have absolutely no problem with 95%inheritance tax above a nominal amount like €50,000.

What difference does it matter how they acquired their wealth (house)? If they worked hard for it, fair play to them and they deserve it. If they inherited it, so what. Someone close to them worked hard for it. Either way, the taxpayer would have done well enough out of it.

By all means, put a lean on the house if the pensioner can't pay the property tax so that when they die, the balance owed on the property needs to be paid by the estate of the dead person. But don't expect old age pensioners who have very little income to have to move just because they can't afford the property tax.

People bang on as if they like meritocracy, but also support the notion of inheritance which is the opposite to meritocracy.

I'm not a fan of rewarding people for sitting on their hole, but a parent working hard, paying tax and being able to leave something for their kids is a good thing. I don't see it as a negative.

Your inheritance tax is unbelievably punitive. You seem to have a gripe regarding people inheriting stuff.

I did some work on the Grosvenor inheritance a few years back. The duke of Westminster inherited about £8bn when his father died (also inherited). All legally don’t through trusts which are set up to make sure the extremely wealthy don’t have to pay the kind of tax that normal people pay. Otherwise you’d lose the nobility (and I’ve no idea why that would be a problem)

What has that got to do with forcing an auld wan to move out of her house if she can't afford the property tax?

the “bank of mum and dad” is now one of he main lenders for first time buyers and the single biggest lender. Meritocracy my hoop.

But I don't think you are correct on that point either. Yes, some Mams and Dads are in a position to help their kids with a deposit but the vast majority of Mams and Dads can't. I certainly didn't get any financial help from my parents when I was buying my house and I don't know any of my friends who did.

Again though, that's absolutely nothing to do with auld wans having to sell their house because they can't afford the property tax.

Mad_maxx · 05-09-2019 10:21pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's about choices, the vast majority of people can't afford a million euro house, if you happen to live in one, don't expect the state to cover the costs of it

Besides, the state pension is more than enough to put away five hundred euro per annum for property tax

The person in the million euro house has more than likely worked hard for it and provided it for themselves, the State didn't provide it so I don't see how the person living in that house is expecting the state to cover the costs of it.

Also, you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think it's easy for pensioners to save €500 per year for property tax. Many, and I mean a very significant number of pensioners have fcukall money and are living from week to week and they wouldn't have a hope in hell of forking out €500 on property tax.

The average Pensioner has a lot more disposable cash than most thirty somethings but due to the likes of you who swallow the poor pensioner line, the government keep pandering to them

500 euro is a tenner per week

El_Duderino 09 · 05-09-2019 10:53pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't agree. Imagine you are in your mid 70's. The last thing you want to do is to sell your house and move. People in their 70's, 80's etc. usually have a support network of friends, relations and neighbours around them. Are you seriously suggesting that they have to up sticks and move away from all these supports to a strange area just because they are on a state pension and live in a big house?

What difference does it matter how they acquired their wealth (house)? If they worked hard for it, fair play to them and they deserve it. If they inherited it, so what. Someone close to them worked hard for it. Either way, the taxpayer would have done well enough out of it.

By all means, put a lean on the house if the pensioner can't pay the property tax so that when they die, the balance owed on the property needs to be paid by the estate of the dead person. But don't expect old age pensioners who have very little income to have to move just because they can't afford the property tax.

I'm not a fan of rewarding people for sitting on their hole, but a parent working hard, paying tax and being able to leave something for their kids is a good thing. I don't see it as a negative.

Your inheritance tax is unbelievably punitive. You seem to have a gripe regarding people inheriting stuff.

What has that got to do with forcing an auld wan to move out of her house if she can't afford the property tax?

But I don't think you are correct on that point either. Yes, some Mams and Dads are in a position to help their kids with a deposit but the vast majority of Mams and Dads can't. I certainly didn't get any financial help from my parents when I was buying my house and I don't know any of my friends who did.

Again though, that's absolutely nothing to do with auld wans having to sell their house because they can't afford the property tax.

Hold he phone. What’s he cut off age for not having to move if you can’t afford to maintain the costs of your house? If someone hits 70/80 and they can’t afford the upkeep costs, then they have the choice to move or live beyond their means - just like every other human.

I didn’t say they have to move area. They might be in a position to downsize and live in the same area. If not, it’s a matter of behaving like everyone else in a capitalist society and live within their means.

I think you’re a good example of what I said in the last post. People pay lip service to meritocracy but in fact they will support the notion of inheritance even though it’s the opposite of meritocracy. It hardly matters if someone sits on their hole and inherits money or sits on their hole on he dole, they specifically didn’t earn the money. Someone earned it. You work and pay tax which goes to people on the dole so there’s no doubt that someone worked for it.

And the bank of mum and dad was in the news last week, whether you or I personally benefitted or not.

Social mobility is often mentioned alongside meritocracy. If you’re clever and hard working, you should rise towards the top in wealth and status even if you’re born poor. But people rarely discuss the other side of the same coin. If you’re lazy and stupid, you should fall towards the bottom in wealth and status even if you’re born rich.

Inheritance prevents that from happening. It means that if you’re born rich, chances are you stay rich and your children will stay rich. If you’re born poor, chances are you’ll stay poor and your children will be poor.

Inheritance is actually a really negative thing for a society that says it values the merits which our society claims to value.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-09-2019 10:59pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The average Pensioner has a lot more disposable cash than most thirty somethings but due to the likes of you who swallow the poor pensioner line, the government keep pandering to them

500 euro is a tenner per week

It wa reported in the last few weeks that old people have more cash than young people for the first time in recent history (and cash doesn’t include wealth such as properties, stocks and businesses, which old people are miles ahead of young people).

Old people actually have no idea about the situations young people face. The fact that old people live so long and vote so relatively has had a massive impact on how countries are run.

It a complete mess.

Idbatterim · 05-09-2019 11:32pm

I had enough of a neighbor pensioner talking ****e the other day and after years of listening to the “ poor pensioner “ spiel I told him id heard enough of it. If they’d all worked so hard , how are they still struggling ? Struggling on the worlds most ridiculous welfare state ? Many Picked up property for a pittance ? Now they screw every cent out of the young. My heart really bleeds. I’ve mates in Dublin with good paying jobs busting their balls and that are still struggling. Fcuking do one !

BattleCorp · 06-09-2019 9:15am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I had enough of a neighbor pensioner talking ****e the other day and after years of listening to the “ poor pensioner “ spiel I told him id heard enough of it. If they’d all worked so hard , how are they still struggling ? Struggling on the worlds most ridiculous welfare state ? Many Picked up property for a pittance ? Now they screw every cent out of the young. My heart really bleeds. I’ve mates in Dublin with good paying jobs busting their balls and that are still struggling. Fcuking do one !

Some, and I am only saying some pensioners are struggling because of the difference in their working income and their State pension. Typically your income is sliced in half when you retire on the State pension yet your costs don't significantly reduce.

I can't talk about other families but I can talk about my own. And this would be similar to many families from my area.

My Dad worked as a general operative in a factory and when that closed he did bits and pieces here and there. He didn't earn a huge wage and maybe after paying for his house, rearing us kids etc. he had about €15k saved up at the time of his death.

My Mam was a housewife who minded kids and did bits and pieces and would have had fcukall saved up as she would have spent any extra on us kids. Not wasted money mind, just stuff that we would have needed.

Cue them hitting pension age and that's a drop in income to the State pension level. Cue him dying shortly after and then the household is down to one State pension. In around €250ish per week. It costs pretty much the same to insure, heat, maintain a house whether there are one or two people living there. Your expenses don't go down significantly when one spouse dies but your income does.

Now, 15 years later, house maintenance etc. has wiped that €15k and the income is still pretty sh1te. A tenner a week to some people is nothing but it can be the difference in turning on the heat a couple of days for some pensioners.

While I agree with you that not all pensioners are poor, many are. It's wrong for me to say all pensioners are poor but equally it's wrong for you to rant about all the money that pensioners have because it's not the same for everybody.

You only have to look at some of the houses for sale on Daft to see the conditions many pensioners were living in.

El_Duderino 09 · 06-09-2019 9:52am

BattleCorp wrote: »

You only have to look at some of the houses for sale on Daft to see the conditions many pensioners were living in.

If they had been prepared to downsized earlier to a house manageable by an old person, they probably wouldn’t be in that position when they get old.

Boom bust economy?

Comments