Who is the best/worst Taoiseach in modern times?

skooterblue2 · 24-08-2020 2:17am

Tell me how wrote: »

Bet you're sorry the 1916 rising ever happened.

Meh, Under the British, or the EU or maybe if the Soviet Union has persisted for a war after the fall of Berlin, it would have all been the same under a different power.

Mehapoy · 24-08-2020 3:58am

Best: Leo, when you see what a mess MM is making you realise leadership on something like covid looks easy but can be messed up very easily, also did very well throughout the whole brexit debacle in keeping NI aligned to the EU

Honourable mentions, Albert Reynolds Laid alot if the groundwork for peace with John Major and the good relationship he had with him brought the British to the table.

Worst: Cowen for guaranteeing every debt of the developers and saddling the country for 100 years
Ahern, a grifter that had no vision for the country only stadiums and corruption, handed a loaded grenade to Cowen
Ends Kenny, had an opportunity to fundamentally remake the country but was a real status quo'er that carried on the ff raid on the country

votecounts · 24-08-2020 4:16am

Mehapoy wrote: »

Best: Leo, when you see what a mess MM is making you realise leadership on something like covid looks easy but can be messed up very easily, also did very well throughout the whole brexit debacle in keeping NI aligned to the EU

Honourable mentions, Albert Reynolds Laid alot if the groundwork for peace with John Major and the good relationship he had with him brought the British to the table.

Worst: Cowen for guaranteeing every debt of the developers and saddling the country for 100 years
Ahern, a grifter that had no vision for the country only stadiums and corruption, handed a loaded grenade to Cowen
Ends Kenny, had an opportunity to fundamentally remake the country but was a real status quo'er that carried on the ff raid on the country

deserves a lot of credit for peace in the north with the Good Friday Agreement

10000maniacs · 24-08-2020 5:59am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

For me, I would say Bertie was by far the worst, given the outcome of his tenure. He put absolutely no control on anything, anybody who talked about a downturn was told to commit suicide. Between him and Charlie "When I have it I'll spend it" McCreevy, they set the traps for what was a crippling recession.

Cowen was useless but he was given the ultimate hospital pass.

I think Enda was OK in fairness to him (and probably the best we had). Himself and Noonan got more right than wrong. Irish Water was their biggest disaster in my view. I would say he didn't tackle waste in the public sector like he could have and Dr. J's plan for the health service floundered badly.

I think Leo's administration was a lot poorer than people remember. Yes they did well in Covid but where was the same urgency regarding housing, where was the control of costs at the childrens hospital, where was the accountability for cervical check. I also never liked that they didn't try to get more corporation tax from multi national companies but kept hammering the squeezed middle.

We have to realise that the squeezed middle with huge mortgages are the ones who are going to have to pay the bill for the 100,000s of social houses promised in the last election. Any leader who has misgivings about this is a good leader in my opinion.

Dempo1 · 24-08-2020 6:40am

Leo seems to get Kudos for his initial handling of the Pandemic but in reality his decisions were quite easy. Seems to me he's done a "Bertie on Cowan stroke" and has been crowned the new "most devious & Cunning" of them all.

Very dissapointing that the minute Michael Martin took over the poison chalice that is actually requiring real and tough decisions, Leo & is FG cohorts have been acting disgracefully underming everyone from Martin to the acting CMO, his interview on the news at one yesterday reminded me of a petulant child who's lost his toy.

This all said, Michael Martin, Leo, Bertie Ahern, John Bruton, Brian Cowan in order of lack of preference.

Wanderer78 · 24-08-2020 7:46am

10000maniacs wrote:

We have to realise that the squeezed middle with huge mortgages are the ones who are going to have to pay the bill for the 100,000s of social houses promised in the last election. Any leader who has misgivings about this is a good leader in my opinion.

With record low rates, effectively, nobody should have to pay for those social houses, just borrow borrow borrow, we could even borrow a few quid from ourselves if needed

Chips Lovell · 24-08-2020 9:26am

Mod Note

Please heed the charter folks

Keep your language civil, particularly when referring to other posters and people in the public eye. Using unsavoury language does not add to your argument. Examples would be referring to other people or groups as scumbags, crusties, sheeple, shills, trolls, traitors or saying that recently deceased people should “rot in hell” or similar. Repeated use of terms like that will result in a ban from the forum.

10000maniacs · 24-08-2020 3:20pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With record low rates, effectively, nobody should have to pay for those social houses, just borrow borrow borrow, we could even borrow a few quid from ourselves if needed

This is how we ended up in the last mess. Borrow, borrow, borrow. And Also, Covid19 borrowings are in excess of €30 billion this year. We can't afford the election promises any time soon.

Wanderer78 · 24-08-2020 3:23pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

This is how we ended up in the last mess. Borrow, borrow, borrow. And Also, Covid19 borrowings are in excess of €30 billion this year. We can't afford the election promises any time soon.

it was indeed from borrowing, but that was private debt, from private sector financial institutions, public sector borrowing is less risky, and less likely to lead to the calamity we ve just pulled ourselves out of, even though im expecting private sector debt issues to resurface again very soon, due to our current situation

24-08-2020 3:30pm

hard to have a discussion on anything govt related without one of two posters informing us that govt spending isnt real

its somewhat of a limiter to serious discussion tbh

lemass is probably up there

kenny is a favourite target of the 'free everything' brigade but history will be very kind to what he achieved, tho he and varadkar were far too conservative in what they were willing to do in tackling property interests

Wanderer78 · 24-08-2020 3:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

hard to have a discussion on anything govt related without one of two posters informing us that govt spending isnt real

its somewhat of a limiter to serious discussion tbh

lemass is probably up there

kenny is a favourite target of the 'free everything' brigade but history will be very kind to what he achieved, tho he and varadkar were far too conservative in what they were willing to do in tackling property interests

unsure what this means?

beggars_bush · 24-08-2020 3:33pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

This is how we ended up in the last mess. Borrow, borrow, borrow. And Also, Covid19 borrowings are in excess of €30 billion this year. We can't afford the election promises any time soon.

Borrowing money cheaply to actually build housing is better than paying private landlords millions every month to house families

24-08-2020 3:36pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Strange logic.....

The reason we don't talk about it is because it is not costing the tax payer, if Paddy Murphy wants to pay 5 people to do something inefficiently, more the power to Paddy!
It is a different kettle of fish when the tax payer is footing the bill. Then people are entitled to expect value for money.

the private sector costs the taxpayer enormously

huge elements of govt spend is taken up by repairing damage done or regulating activities that otherwise would do damage by those whose only ethos is short term profit motive

10000maniacs · 24-08-2020 9:30pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Borrowing money cheaply to actually build housing is better than paying private landlords millions every month to house families

Borrowing from future taxpayers is always a bad thing in a country with no natural resources of it's own to use as collateral. It's burdening Irish kids with huge debt. Auction politics is a dangerous thing.

James Brown · 25-08-2020 8:17pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

We have to realise that the squeezed middle with huge mortgages are the ones who are going to have to pay the bill for the 100,000s of social houses promised in the last election. Any leader who has misgivings about this is a good leader in my opinion.

Rather pay towards building and renting out our own than leasing, renting and buying from private concerns.

10000maniacs wrote: »

Borrowing from future taxpayers is always a bad thing in a country with no natural resources of it's own to use as collateral. It's burdening Irish kids with huge debt. Auction politics is a dangerous thing.

We are spending more than we could be so private rentals companies can make profits.

Edgware wrote: »

Well then you are not doing a fair comparison of the achievements of the various Taoisigh.
Are you seriously saying De Valera was worse than Haughey, Reynolds or Bruton?

Are you familiar with the Irish Press shares? Essentially Dev floated two lots of shares, A and B, for Irish Press. He used patriotism at home and abroad to get people to invest/buy shares in 'our' news paper. The shares he sold to the public where worthless, it was basically them giving him money. The other true actual shares, he kept for himself.

Bobtheman · 27-08-2020 10:11pm

All of them did some good .
Cosgrave- established the state
DEV - dismantled what remained of the treaty
Built a lot of houses.
Costello- provided an alternative to FF. Set up the IDA.
Fought TB
Lemass- opened the economy
Lynch - fought the IRA
Garrett- Anglo Irish agreement
You get the drift.
Nobody really stands out bar lemass-

Bobtheman · 27-08-2020 10:13pm

Bowie wrote: »

Rather pay towards building and renting out our own than leasing, renting and buying from private concerns.

We are spending more than we could be so private rentals companies can make profits.

Are you familiar with the Irish Press shares? Essentially Dev floated two lots of shares, A and B, for Irish Press. He used patriotism at home and abroad to get people to invest/buy shares in 'our' news paper. The shares he sold to the public where worthless, it was basically them giving him money. The other true actual shares, he kept for himself.

The economic war with the UK was a huge diaster
Set back agriculture 20 years.
He also continued the policy of handing over kids and women to the church that only stopped in the 1970s.

Bobtheman · 27-08-2020 10:17pm

All Irish governments since the 1990s
were complicit in creating a dysfunctional housing market and a below avg health system. Actually let's call it what it is - ****.
That's not to say that within that period real achievements didn't occur. The good Friday agreement and not all of the growth 1997- 2007 has totally disappeared.

Good loser · 29-08-2020 9:04pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Borrowing money cheaply to actually build housing is better than paying private landlords millions every month to house families

That depends on a number of other variables.

The Govt have to spend money on many things - not least on paying their employees quite handsome salaries. Plus this year they are accumulating a new debt of 30 billion due to Covid. What will that increase to next year?

Many people buy/construct their own houses at no cost to the State; they then have to pony up the money for the houses the State builds for others.

A rent subsidy may come to €8000 per annum whereas a new house in Dublin will cost €300,000 plus.

All good reasons to limit Govt house building as much as possible.

johnmcdnl · 01-09-2020 7:18am

Tell me how wrote: »

Leo followed on Repeal and SSM, not led.
He did well on Covid initially but many medical staff who rushed home to help were abandoned when it came to getting permanent roles.
He targeted people committing fraud and would have let Maria Bailey get away with her fraudulent claim but for the public uproar.
He took no ownership in delivering on the commitments to the Paris Accord which he signed us up to.

Overall I'd probably give him a 6 out of 10.

Micheal Martin 2/10 Not looking good but early days
Enda Kenny 7/10 Well capable of looking out for his buddies but represented country well abroad
Brain Cowen 4/10 Always seemed out of his depth but hard not to be during that time
Bertie Ahern 3/10 Was up to all sorts but probably was Taoiseach during period of best growth in the states history. Think people forget just how popular he was in 2002
John Bruton 5/10 No great recollection
Albert Reynolds 4/10 Did good work in peace process but was weak in face of CC influence leading to government collapse
Charlie Haughey 3/10 Would have been a great leader if you were within his inner circle but he shafted the people of the country with his 'way beyond our means speech' and was the original bandwagoner

It's mad how Ireland as a country have improved it's international status and ranking in almost every quality of life metric you can think of between roughly the mid 80s to 2020 with such a band of inept to average leaders.

Maybe leadership isn't as important as they make it out to be. Maybe we don't give them the credit they actually deserve. Maybe other countries have just had even worse leadership than our own. Maybe had Bertie retired before the GFC came along he'd get more than a 3 which might average then numbers out a little better. Maybe something else.
Whichever it is, it's interesting all the same.

Tell me how · 01-09-2020 10:50am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

It's mad how Ireland as a country have improved it's international status and ranking in almost every quality of life metric you can think of between roughly the mid 80s to 2020 with such a band of inept to average leaders.

Maybe leadership isn't as important as they make it out to be. Maybe we don't give them the credit they actually deserve. Maybe other countries have just had even worse leadership than our own. Maybe had Bertie retired before the GFC came along he'd get more than a 3 which might average then numbers out a little better. Maybe something else.
Whichever it is, it's interesting all the same.

I think in simple terms, leadership isn't the be all and end all even though it is judged as such.
Governance in Western Democracies being what it is, outside of the person in the top seat, there are at any given time, 5-10 people who want that seat, they have their own aspirations, desires and plans and they can influence a governments success or perception either positively (Simon Harris earlier this year) or negatively (Boris Johnson under Theresa May).
There are a lot of other factors that come in to play in terms of the success or failure of a government but in hindsight, we put all down to having been the product of the person in charge.

Look at Micheal Martin in this respect, a lot of the fiasco's of this government so far have not been his fault directly, but in review, in 20 years time, they will be described as if they were.

crossman47 · 04-09-2020 3:00pm

For me, Lemass was the best. He opened the country up to trade and started talks with the North. W. T. Cosgrave also deserves mention for setting up the state, guiding it through the early years and then handing over power peacefully when FF were not sure that would happen. Dev, for all his faults, also deserves credit for steering us through the war.

Haughey could have been up there but he has to be the worst because of the way he had a major role in corrupting the office. Aherne deserves credit for the Peace Talks but, similar to Haughey, has to rank low.

Of the others, i think history will be kind to Kenny. He took over a battered country and kept a sense of optimism. He represented us well abroad, took a hard line on church failings and, as soon as Brexit happened, got Europe to see our perspective. Leo did well on Covid but his undermining of MM does him no credit. The latter has been weak but also very unlucky. How can you legislate for the golf dinner?

Brussels Sprout · 06-09-2020 11:37pm

I only want to rate those that were in the job when I was an adult but I also don't want to rate Varadkar or Martin as I believe it's too soon since they both likely have time left to serve in the office. That only leaves 3 but regardless I'll go:

Enda Kenny. After the implosion of the previous government and the humbling of the country in general we needed a steady hand to get us back on course. Kenny gave us this. He wasn't an exciting leader and he couldn't debate to save his life but he got the job done without any major scandals along the way. I suspect that he will be a future President of Ireland.
Bertie Ahern. Someone clearly with a checkered history both in and out of the office. Possibly the greatest ever retail politician taoiseach, given that he had a knack for giving people exactly what they wanted. Of course this largess only inflated the property bubble making the resulting crash even worse. He got the GFA over the line along with Blair & Clinton and like those two he'll be hoping that in the fullness of time that that's what he'll most be remembered for rather then what came after.
Brian Cowen. A decent man who just wasn't cut out for the job. The handling of the Bank Guarantee in particular sticks out but was one of many fiascos in his short stint in power.

gourcuff · 10-09-2020 3:00pm

Best is obviously Enda.

Have to say Bertie as the worst, who bears more responsibility than him for the massive debt burden we are now under.

road_high · 10-09-2020 4:33pm

gourcuff wrote: »

Best is obviously Enda.

Have to say Bertie as the worst, who bears more responsibility than him for the massive debt burden we are now under.

Enda was a very good Taoiseach in my opinion. He had great energy, integrity and led the country out of the ****e it was in then.
M Martin is fairly underwhelming so far and can't see that changing. He's a solid Minister material but not leadership. As it is you feel Varadkar is the one charge most of the time still

Kilboor · 17-09-2020 2:09pm

Can't deny Leo Varadkar was an impressive Taoiseach but I did not personally agree with many of the social and economic policies being pushed at that time, for that reason I'd argue Enda Kenny as the best Taoiseach of modern times. The thing about Enda is he made tough decisions and stuck to them and ultimately for the wider population it paid off. Neither have been beneficial to my own or my families life though which is disappointing. I find myself looking more towards the left economically these days, it would be nice to see change in action for once.

breezy1985 · 24-09-2020 11:53am

10000maniacs wrote: »

Borrowing from future taxpayers is always a bad thing in a country with no natural resources of it's own to use as collateral. It's burdening Irish kids with huge debt. Auction politics is a dangerous thing.

The other option is burdening Irish kids with a life of private debt and sending this country further back under the boot of the landlords. Personally ide rather be burdened with extra tax and my own house then burdened with a life of high rent

Who is the best/worst Taoiseach in modern times?

Comments