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US diplomat's wife flees home claiming diplomatic immunity after fatal collision

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    #62
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,736 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    UK Police have asked the US to waive immunity, seems unlikely to happen though:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/06/all-hope-had-gone-grieving-british-mother-criticises-us-embassy


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    #63
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    STB. wrote: »
    That's some level of detail Sky have released.

    Wife of a diplomat that didn't work at the embassy, but at a spy base ?

    Agreement between UK and US for immunity at spy base. I've heard it all now.

    The more detail that emerges, the more of a clear-cut a case it is showing why diplomatic immunity exists.

    https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/anne-sacoolas/

    The accident seems to have taken place while Sacoolas was leaving military base - apparently some sort of secret communications station. Spouses of diplomats often carry out spying/diplomatic work themselves; their presence in the host country can be plausibly explained away by their official role as 'just the wife/husband'. Sacoolas is former State Department, which would lend weight to this theory.

    If police were able to arrest and interrogate her, their line of questioning would naturally cover the sequence of events leading up to the accident ("where was it exactly you were leaving; how often to do go there; what exactly is your role there..."), which could compromise all sorts of intelligence operations, and be a great source of embarrassment for the U.S and U.K. governments.

    Similarly for things like parking tickets and speeding - who knows what sort of important business a diplomatic car is double-parked for? Diplomats can't be obliged to give accounts for themselves to the police service in the host country; part of the agreement is that they are allowed go about their business unmolested. What if a war broke out, all because a diplomat wasn't able to personally deliver an important message because his/her car was clamped?
    Of course, human nature being what it is, unscrupulous individual diplomats will abuse this privilege to drive drunk and park wherever they like.

    Diplomatic immunity is a good system, in theory, and predates almost every other part of international law; the problem is in the real world, is sometimes throws up awful anomalies like this.

    RIP to that poor boy, my heart goes out to his family.


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    #64
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    STB. wrote: »
    Yep. Infact the local district attorney refused to allow it, as he was not on official business. Supposedly took a load of parked cars out of it.


    Doubt that. District attorney might have tried to press forward with the charges regardless but he couldn't override diplomatic immunity. It would have to be waived by the diplomats country.


    FYI, if he was in his own car, then it would have had diplomatic plates. When you are in such a vehicle (whether diplomat or not) it is the same as being in an embassy. The diplomat wouldn't have to justify official business or not either way.


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    #65
    Portsalon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Portsalon


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »

    I thought exactly the same when I heard the story. "Diplomat" can be used very *broadly* sometimes. I felt bad for the young fellas family when I saw them on sky news,

    the Brits would not hesitate to protect one of their own if the shoe was on the other foot too.

    I'm not so sure. Whatever about the Tories/Daily Mail/Telegraph/Express brigade, I can't see UK Labour/Lib Dems, etc. or the Guardian tolerating such a completely indefensible abuse of diplomatic immunity.


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    #66
    GooglePlus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    The more detail that emerges, the more of a clear-cut a case it is showing why diplomatic immunity exists.

    https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/anne-sacoolas/

    The accident seems to have taken place while Sacoolas was leaving military base - apparently some sort of secret communications station. Spouses of diplomats often carry out spying/diplomatic work themselves; their presence in the host country can be plausibly explained away by their official role as 'just the wife/husband'. Sacoolas is former State Department, which would lend weight to this theory.

    If police were able to arrest and interrogate her, their line of questioning would naturally cover the sequence of events leading up to the accident ("where was it exactly you were leaving; how often to do go there; what exactly is your role there..."), which could compromise all sorts of intelligence operations, and be a great source of embarrassment for the U.S and U.K. governments.

    Similarly for things like parking tickets and speeding - who knows what sort of important business a diplomatic car is double-parked for? Diplomats can't be obliged to give accounts for themselves to the police service in the host country; part of the agreement is that they are allowed go about their business unmolested. What if a war broke out, all because a diplomat wasn't able to personally deliver an important message because his/her car was clamped?
    Of course, human nature being what it is, unscrupulous individual diplomats will abuse this privilege to drive drunk and park wherever they like.

    Diplomatic immunity is a good system, in theory, and predates almost every other part of international law; the problem is in the real world, is sometimes throws up awful anomalies like this.

    RIP to that poor boy, my heart goes out to his family.

    Could they not just avoid asking that, as it's irrelevant really.


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    #67
    Portsalon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Portsalon


    More from the London Times:-
    "The driver of the car has been named as Anne Sacoolas, a 42-year-old American citizen.

    A file will be sent to prosecutors to decide whether to charge her with death by dangerous driving. However, she left the country, claiming immunity, shortly after the crash.

    The US embassy has refused to grant Northamptonshire police an immunity waiver to interview Ms Sacoolas, a mother of three, as a suspect.

    Today, the prime minister said he could speak to the White House to demand the return of Ms Sacoolas.

    “I do not think it can be right to use the process of diplomatic immunity for this type of purpose,” he said.

    Mr Johnson’s spokesman added: “The details of this case are extremely concerning and the foreign secretary has discussed it with the US ambassador. The justice process should be allowed to take place and we urge the US to reconsider their decision.

    “The prime minister offers his condolences to the Dunn family — this was a tragic set of events that no family should have to experience.”

    Mr Dunn’s family have claimed that Ms Sacoolas was driving on the wrong side of the road for 400 yards before colliding head-on with the teenager’s motorbike.

    His mother, Charlotte Charles, 44, had urged Mr Johnson to “get on the phone” to President Trump, and said that her son had “no chance” and that the driver had been on the wrong side of the road. She told Sky News: “The police have the CCTV footage showing that she pulled out of the RAF base on to the wrong side of the road. Harry had no chance.

    “She travelled on 350 to 400 yards on the wrong side of the road. It was a head-on collision — we later lost him in hospital ........................ “We are utterly shocked and appalled that somebody is allowed just to get on a plane and go home and avoid our justice system.”

    Ms Sacoolas and her husband only arrived in Britain in early August and their three children were enrolled in the £19,000-a-year Winchester House private school in Brackley, Northamptonshire, where Harry’s father, Tim Dunn, is the head of maintenance."

    I wonder how Bojo will wriggle his way out of this one if the Yanks play hardball.


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    #68
    McDermotX
    Registered Users Posts: 14,648 ✭✭✭✭McDermotX


    Scumbag bitch !

    Chance here to make things right......failure to do so just reinforces statement above.


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    #69
    Lady Spangles
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭Lady Spangles


    New to the thread so just jumping in here.

    I get that diplomatic immunity is a thing. It always has been. But the woman is not a diplomat, she's a diplomat's wife. I didn't realise diplomatic immunity extended to their families. It's bizarre.


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    She’s not much of a “spy” if she doesn’t know how to drive on the correct side of the road.

    How would she like it if someone mowed into one of her kids, killed them and they just jumped on a plane to face no consequences? Probability is, if she had stayed around she would never see a custodial sentence anyway.


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    #71
    patrickobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭patrickobrien


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    The state department is behaving in the same manner as other government would deal with a request, regardless who the office holder is.
    Can you provide a link to any government which removed diplomatic immunity status from any of its citizens. I certainly can't. Similar incidents happened in 93 and 97 in Russia , US didn't remove immunity from there citizens then either and I'm positive Trump wasn't president then.

    A South African court has annulled a government decision to grant Zimbabwe's former First Lady Grace Mugabe diplomatic immunity in an assault case.


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    #72
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Lady Spangles wrote: »
    New to the thread so just jumping in here.

    I get that diplomatic immunity is a thing. It always has been. But the woman is not a diplomat, she's a diplomat's wife. I didn't realise diplomatic immunity extended to their families. It's bizarre.

    It was explained succinctly earlier in the thread.


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    #73
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Terrible thing but diplomatic immunity is necessary. I doubt the US will waive diplomatic immunity as it would set a dangerous precedence. The immunity is necessary for diplomats and their families from being wrongly targeted in foreign nations. The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #74
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Doubt that. District attorney might have tried to press forward with the charges regardless but he couldn't override diplomatic immunity. It would have to be waived by the diplomats country.


    FYI, if he was in his own car, then it would have had diplomatic plates. When you are in such a vehicle (whether diplomat or not) it is the same as being in an embassy. The diplomat wouldn't have to justify official business or not either way.
    I was driving behind a vehicle in Washington, DC the other week that had Diplomat plates. He was not a safe driver and weaving in and out of lanes, so I kept my distance.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #75
    Torsevt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Torsevt


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Terrible thing but diplomatic immunity is necessary. I doubt the US will waive diplomatic immunity as it would set a dangerous precedence. The immunity is necessary for diplomats and their families from being wrongly targeted in foreign nations. The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

    Didn't the US already set the precedent though

    I think it was Georgia they asked to waive DI in a similar case


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    #76
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I was driving behind a vehicle in Washington, DC the other week that had Diplomat plates. He was not a safe driver and weaving in and out of lanes, so I kept my distance.


    DC is full of them. Blue numberplates everywhere.

    Most of them ignore tickets etc., but the cops/parking will still give them out - they just can't follow up to enforce them if they are ignored. They also can't stop them to give it to them but if a car is parked in a loading bay etc. they can write and leave it on the window.


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    #77
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Torsevt wrote: »
    Didn't the US already set the precedent though

    I think it was Georgia they asked to waive DI in a similar case
    Asking for and giving it are two completely different animals. Countries always ask for it to be waived, but usually never provide it when asked.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    DC is full of them. Blue numberplates everywhere.

    Most of them ignore tickets etc., but the cops/parking will still give them out - they just can't follow up to enforce them if they are ignored. They also can't stop them to give it to them but if a car is parked in a loading bay etc. they can write and leave it on the window.

    While anyone with diplomatic immunity could in theory ignore a parking ticket, or drink driving for that matter, the embassies take a very dim view of it and it can harm someone’s career if they take the proverbial


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    #79
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Aegir wrote: »
    While anyone with diplomatic immunity could in theory ignore a parking ticket, or drink driving for that matter, the embassies take a very dim view of it and it can harm someone’s career if they take the proverbial

    Depends on the country - "western" democracies where the rule of law is given great importance would take a dim view, whereas in countries where corruption is an everyday occurrence, they probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.


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    #80
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    The diplomatic immunity laws are there partly to let nations spy on each other so they know what each other are up to so no need for unnecessary paranoia. So this whole thing is working at the level of nations and international security. Unfortunately the death of a citizen here and there, is really unlikely to get anyone to change the way they do things.

    I'd expect nothing more to happen regarding waving diplomatic immunity to voluntarily face prison time in the UK. That's just not how things work.

    Tragic death. Really sorry for the bloke's family.


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    #81
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,560 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Have been watching the news about this on the British news and it is very sad and very disturbing that someone could do that, then say they will not go home there country and then do that. Even more disturbing is the fact she is supposed to have had her children in the car with her when it happened. What is this teacher her children. Oh look its ok to hit someone with your car maybe even kill them and just drive off very disturbing indeed.
    It will be interesting to see if Donald Trump has any sort of morality in him and can persuade her to go let justice be served for what see done. The family have said they do not want her to go to prison they just want answers but because of what she has done they will now find it very hard to forgive her.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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    #82
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    AMKC wrote: »
    Have been watching the news about this on the British news and it is very sad and very disturbing that someone could do that, then say they will not go home there country and then do that. Even more disturbing is the fact she is supposed to have had her children in the car with her when it happened. What is this teacher her children. Oh look its ok to hit someone with your car maybe even kill them and just drive off very disturbing indeed.
    It will be interesting to see if Donald Trump has any sort of morality in him and can persuade her to go let justice be served for what see done. The family have said they do not want her to go to prison they just want answers but because of what she has done they will now find it very hard to forgive her.

    Similar happened in 93/97 involving US citizens invoking DI. Clinton stood by and did nothing, just as Trump will.


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    #83
    radharc
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭radharc


    notobtuse wrote: »
    The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

    So they get some money, big deal. That's not justice.


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    #84
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    An interesting short little bit I heard on NPR radio yesterday on the subject with Craig Baker, whose goal at one time was to abolish diplomatic immunity, but has since flipped because he realized the benefits it provided.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/10/07/768032889/british-prime-minister-urges-u-s-to-waive-immunity-for-woman-after-deadly-car-cr

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #85
    MEGA BRO WOLF 5000
    Registered Users Posts: 17,394 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    NotToScale wrote: »
    It's the Trump Whitehouse so think about what a sensible government, with ethics and morals would do. Then just assume they'll do the complete opposite.

    RIP Harry Dunn and my sincere condolences to his family and friends. It's an awful thing to have happened and it looks like it was a tragic accident, but whatever the circumstances it's compounded by cowardly hiding behind diplomatic protocol.

    It just comes across as extreme arrogance by the US Government. It's not as if the UK is incapable of reasonably, fairly and proportionately investigating a fatal road accident and providing extremely high standards of due process.

    US citizen.

    Trumps fault.

    Ok..


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    #86
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

    Curiouser and curiouser....


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    #87
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,948 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    shesty wrote: »
    Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

    Curiouser and curiouser....

    I think they changed the rules on diplomatic immunity a few years ago to cover the people who work at that Base and their immediate family.


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    #88
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    radharc wrote: »
    So they get some money, big deal. That's not justice.
    No, it is not justice. But it is at least some small remedy to the situation. In a small way it makes one pay (literally) for their crime.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #89
    Titzon Toast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Titzon Toast


    The fact that she ran back to America says everything about the type of scummy person she is.

    I hope she gets what she deserves.


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    #90
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    shesty wrote: »
    Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

    Curiouser and curiouser....

    Sky news reported the DI was extended to those working at that specific base, but their is suggestions that it may extend to other bases. This appears to have been done without the knowledge of the public. Whatever the merits of DI it certainly was not envisaged for situations where beneficiaries of same could shirk their responsibilities as this woman has done.


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    #91
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    The diplomatic immunity laws are there partly to let nations spy on each other so they know what each other are up to so no need for unnecessary paranoia. So this whole thing is working at the level of nations and international security. Unfortunately the death of a citizen here and there, is really unlikely to get anyone to change the way they do things.

    I'd expect nothing more to happen regarding waving diplomatic immunity to voluntarily face prison time in the UK. That's just not how things work.

    Tragic death. Really sorry for the bloke's family.
    It's also there so a country can't quietly get rid of a diplomat they don't like (or someone they suspect of spying) by framing them for something.


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