Railfreight

relaxed · 14-05-2014 2:42pm

davidlacey wrote: »

why would it be at such a loss with so little of it at this stage!

Off the top of my head are there about 40 freight train journeys a week, call it €350 per wagon thing and 20 wagons per train, so ballpark 50 weeks is roughly €14 million a year - pretty small!

So where are the losses given the customer charters the train and carries all the risk in the event of wagons being empty?

L1011 · 14-05-2014 2:51pm

Full cost accounting of maintenance to track etc even though they're also used for other purposes (passenger and/or PW trains etc) I'd imagine.

corktina · 14-05-2014 3:04pm

MYOB wrote: »

Full cost accounting of maintenance to track etc even though they're also used for other purposes (passenger and/or PW trains etc) I'd imagine.

that they would not get away with....the loss would be far bigger if they did that.

So wlll they be putting up the prices for the few trains that do run to eliminate the loss?...or is it a case that the trains are not really viable and would cease to run if they didn't run at a loss?

davidlacey · 14-05-2014 3:05pm

MYOB wrote: »

Full cost accounting of maintenance to track etc even though they're also used for other purposes (passenger and/or PW trains etc) I'd imagine.

other than drogheda to tara mines and dublin port

GBOA · 14-05-2014 5:37pm

In answer to davidlacey, It's economies of scale.

Put as simply as possible with a few basic assumptions, if you have a loco hauling 10 wagons with a full container on only one, there will be a more or less fixed operating cost. The revenue from the single container will not cover that cost so you have a net loss.

The same train with 10 full containers generates 10 times as much revenue however, the operating cost is highly unlikely to also increase by a factor of 10 so the theory is you get a net profit working based on the assumption that the cargo revenue surpasses the operating cost somewhere before reaching capacity.

That's probably a bit utopian though.

corktina · 14-05-2014 5:59pm

But isn't it the case that IE operate these services on behalf of a third party at , presumably, a fixed price and that 3rd party takes the risk of a loss. In that case why are IE subsiding the 3rd party by pricing the services at a loss?

GBOA · 14-05-2014 8:18pm

I don't know the answer to either question nor would I attempt to answer same.

All I posted was a very much simplified model to demonstrate economy of scale.

Jamie2k9 · 14-05-2014 9:21pm

so the losses are getting smaller thankfully, hope this will continue and the sector grows again (it should have never been let go down in the first place but whats done is done)

While IE were not very good in this area the economic problems would of resulted in services cuts and frequency changes no matter what IE did or didn't do.

But isn't it the case that IE operate these services on behalf of a third party at , presumably, a fixed price and that 3rd party takes the risk of a loss. In that case why are IE subsiding the 3rd party by pricing the services at a loss?

Hard to judge but I expect that the agreement between both sides has clauses for changes. example if fuel prices increased X amount or IE fail to deliver services.

On last years losses, one might expect that DFDS service resumption may of received some sort of reduced rates as increased IWT liners could of so that could be a factor into the losses while the upkeep of rolling stock (including preparing for DFDS restart) probably plays a big role. Surly some level of 071's overhaul are included in freight financials.

On a general note Limerick J-Waterford has being cleared for CPW operations so Limerick-Waterford transfers can operate instead of via Kildare.

Victor · 14-05-2014 9:26pm

Irish Rail may have priced it on a whole-enterprise basis. While the freight business lost €1.6m, this was after it paid €2.4m to the infrastructure side.

Was there really a €2.4m cost to the infrastructure side in extra costs?

davidlacey · 14-05-2014 11:02pm

Victor wrote: »

Irish Rail may have priced it on a whole-enterprise basis. While the freight business lost €1.6m, this was after it paid €2.4m to the infrastructure side.

Was there really a €2.4m cost to the infrastructure side in extra costs?

They were probably adjusting a few figures to make passenger rail look slightly better and add costs to rail freight division as no one pays much attention to diminished railfreight which is small change in the grand scheme of things

Losty Dublin · 15-05-2014 1:21am

Victor wrote: »

Irish Rail may have priced it on a whole-enterprise basis. While the freight business lost €1.6m, this was after it paid €2.4m to the infrastructure side.

Was there really a €2.4m cost to the infrastructure side in extra costs?

It's a paper keeping exercise, Victor. Train hire and track access charges for freight and other customers have to be accounted for separately on the balance sheet. Obviously, Irish Rail don't invoice themselves for these costs seeing as they own and operate the network and rolling stock but they need to show that it is a cost involved in hiring trains and accessing the network, hence it moving cash over to reflect this and thus creating a "loss".

dowlingm · 15-05-2014 4:10am

It's a pity the main wagon depot is remote from the current freight flows. I didn't realise the CPWs were having to be positioned by the scenic route.

The_Wanderer · 24-05-2014 12:21am

dowlingm wrote: »

I didn't realise the CPWs were having to be positioned by the scenic route.

Going the direct route recently after Lim Jct - Waterford was cleared for them.

dowlingm · 25-05-2014 1:38am

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Going the direct route recently after Lim Jct - Waterford was cleared for them.

Anyone know if LJ-Waterford cleared for 201 ops or do 071s have to do the shuttle? I wasn't sure how what axle loading the rebuild of the Cahir bridge was to for example.

Jamie2k9 · 25-05-2014 3:54am

dowlingm wrote: »

Anyone know if LJ-Waterford cleared for 201 ops or do 071s have to do the shuttle? I wasn't sure how what axle loading the rebuild of the Cahir bridge was to for example.

201s are not strictly banned only allowed in emergencies at 25mph but there would never be a reason for them to operate on the route.

Hungerford · 05-07-2014 11:58am

As part of Irish Rail's continuing drive to promote rail freight, all tracks in North Esk have been lifted. That is all.

Jamie2k9 · 05-07-2014 6:32pm

Hungerford wrote: »

As part of Irish Rail's continuing drive to promote rail freight, all tracks in North Esk have been lifted. That is all.

because operators were jumping at the opportunity to use them, unless the current set up is completely at capacity I don't see any issue.

end of the road · 05-07-2014 7:45pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

201s are not strictly banned only allowed in emergencies at 25mph but there would never be a reason for them to operate on the route.

there is always a possible reason for a vehicle to operate on a route. so all lines should be cleared for 201s, the 071s aren't going to last forever sadly

end of the road · 05-07-2014 7:47pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

because operators were jumping at the opportunity to use them, unless the current set up is completely at capacity I don't see any issue.

because its more destruction of the peoples railway by those intrusted to look after it

Judgement Day · 05-07-2014 8:25pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

because operators were jumping at the opportunity to use them, unless the current set up is completely at capacity I don't see any issue.

I bet Irish Rail killed themselves trying to find a private operator to use North Esk. Now that the country is embarking on another property bubble I'm sure that the company will look to flog the yard asap.

BonkeyDonker · 05-07-2014 8:46pm

end of the road wrote: »

there is always a possible reason for a vehicle to operate on a route. so all lines should be cleared for 201s, the 071s aren't going to last forever sadly

I can see them outlasting the 201's in Irish Rail service.

dowlingm · 05-07-2014 9:10pm

Is North Esk the best place for a Cork area freight yard now anyway?

Jamie2k9 · 05-07-2014 11:50pm

there is always a possible reason for a vehicle to operate on a route. so all lines should be cleared for 201s, the 071s aren't going to last forever sadly

All lines are but some for emergency only. I agree with the post above 071's will outlast 201's.

because its more destruction of the peoples railway by those intrusted to look after it

It's a few sidings in NW, the current area for the IWT is not at capacity and unless it is there is nothing to worry about. The lack of rolling stock for freight is the problem anyway.

I bet Irish Rail killed themselves trying to find a private operator to use North Esk. Now that the country is embarking on another property bubble I'm sure that the company will look to flog the yard asap.

well the market has to expand at some point, can't stay static for ever!

metrovick001 · 06-07-2014 12:46am

North Esk is in Cork. I would have thought that North Esk was quite suitably located given its proximity to the Dunkettle interchange (The containers would need to make their final journey segment on the back of a truck anyway). Pity, negative move by Iarnrod Eireann I think.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All lines are but some for emergency only. I agree with the post above 071's will outlast 201's.

It's a few sidings in NW, the current area for the IWT is not at capacity and unless it is there is nothing to worry about. The lack of rolling stock for freight is the problem anyway.

well the market has to expand at some point, can't stay static for ever!

dowlingm · 06-07-2014 12:53pm

My question was more whether there was a critical mass of freight sources convenient to North Esk who would be shipping internally rather than exporting via Tivoli and Ringaskiddy.

metrovick001 · 06-07-2014 1:26pm

I think north esk could be viewed as an extension of Dublin port as it would be difficult to see any traffic arriving here for export via the port of Cork. I would say that the port of Cork are rather content with the development (or more appropriately the lack of) here as it severs a link for Dublin Port.
Im not sure who the big users were prior to Irish Rail pulling the plug in July 2005 (25% rate hike). It does have a bit of a scorched earth ring to it.

dowlingm wrote: »

My question was more whether there was a critical mass of freight sources convenient to North Esk who would be shipping internally rather than exporting via Tivoli and Ringaskiddy.

John Denver · 25-09-2014 1:36pm

Does anyone have any information about the new Biomass flow from Ballina?
Is it earmarked for Waterford or Dublin or does anyone have any idea when it might be starting?

corktina · 25-09-2014 4:34pm

maybe I've got it wrong, but wouldn't it be to Ballina?

Captain Chaos · 25-09-2014 6:40pm

The wagons have been put aside for it at Portlaois PW yard. I don't now if they need more work done to them as they are just flats, don't know where the container/hopper parts for them are yet.

BoatMad · 26-09-2014 12:53pm

Reading the 2013 strategic rail review makes poor reading for IR freight

The situation is that they have less then 400 available wagons, and in reality can't respond to new business even if they wanted to, which they don't.

Its worth noting that IR major losses in freight were all associated with its road freight operation, which was mainly associated with the Guinness contract , its saved 75% of its losses just getting rid of that

Any in a few years they will have no wagons and no locos, so freight will be a distant memory

Thats what you get when you employ a management team that actually arnt interested in growing things, just cutting back things.

A growing business with losses can be dealt with , a collapsing business with losses, thats called "going out of business"

Captain Chaos · 26-09-2014 6:35pm

A good question is how many wagons have IE still got, particularly the LP and LX flats.

They have 27 taras, 24 bogie bulk cement (stored), 24 CPWs (1 with the yellow guard rails, stored at Northwall), around 24-28? timbers, around 12? shale (stored),

I reckon they have around 60+ LP and 60+ LX wagons at least. At one time they used to have 200+ LP flats, don't now where they all are now.

end of the road · 26-09-2014 6:41pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

At one time they used to have 200+ LP flats, don't now where they all are now.

probably scrapped?

MGWR · 03-10-2014 6:43am

Looks like Eurostat has come out with some figures with respect to railfreight. Since the title of this thread is quite general, I thought to put it here.

EurActiv

EU initiatives to better integrate and improve connectivity between road, rail and waterways have failed to yield any significant results, according to the latest Eurostat data on freight transport.

In 2012, 74,5% of freight travelled by road in the EU28, a level that “has remained almost unchanged since 2007,” according to a report released on 1 October.

Shares of rail (18.6%) and inland waterways (6.9%) in freight transport also barely budged over the period.

Road transport had a share of over 90% of freight in Cyprus, Malta, Ireland, Greece and Spain, while rail dominated in the Baltic states. Ten European member states, including Malta and Portugal, do not utilise or have inland waterways.

Within the EU28, Romania appears to have achieved the best balance between the various modes of transport, with roads, rail and inland waterways each representing about one third of freight.

The data suggests that longstanding EU efforts to improve intermodality, or the use of “at least two different transport modes in an integrated manner”, have yielded little results. ...

The status quo in Ireland is solely due to government transport policy and no other factor.

Victor · 03-10-2014 8:34am

Additionally Cyprus and Malta don't actually have railways. In Greece, railways are somewhat limited due to geography.

BoatMad · 03-10-2014 9:54am

The estimate in Ireland is that 1-2% approx is carried by rail freight ( Strategic Rail review 2013) , essentially nothing

davidlacey · 03-10-2014 10:59am

What would that figure have been in 90s/early 00s?

ClovenHoof · 03-10-2014 12:01pm

davidlacey wrote: »

What would that figure have been in 90s/early 00s?

2%-3%

Nothingness is a long term creeping disease.

ClovenHoof · 03-10-2014 12:03pm

The day will come when LUAS tracks will carry more freight than the national network. When the tram network expands it'll be used late at night for moving refuge or similar.

L1011 · 03-10-2014 12:08pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The day will come when LUAS tracks will carry more freight than the national network. When the tram network expands it'll be used late at night for moving refuge or similar.

DUTC system was used for this very purpose; there's remaining DUTC tram tracks in to one of the old Corpo depots near Stoneybatter still.

corktina · 03-10-2014 2:05pm

do you mean refuse or refugees?

ClovenHoof · 03-10-2014 5:33pm

MYOB wrote: »

DUTC system was used for this very purpose; there's remaining DUTC tram tracks in to one of the old Corpo depots near Stoneybatter still.

so there is!

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3505668,-6.280641,3a,75y,11.11h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAGiXu4swDPAo1yfh2k6vwQ!2e0

Victor · 04-10-2014 12:55am

There are also parts of the Guinness network visible. http://www.itoworld.com/map/159?lon=-6.27203&lat=53.34689&zoom=13&fullscreen=true

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The day will come when LUAS tracks will carry more freight than the national network. When the tram network expands it'll be used late at night for moving refuge or similar.

The network is insufficient and can you imagine doing waste transfers from trucks to trams on-street? Too smelly / noisy and too labour intensive.

Historically, I imagine coal was delivered on the same trams that waste was collected on. I imagine that a lot of waste was burned domestically and it was the ashes that people were getting rid of - hence the term 'dustman'. Of course, this contributed a lot to the smog problem and would have killed hundred of people per year (elderly, those with asthma and other breathing problems, etc.).

Pete2k · 06-10-2014 6:32pm

Train stopped in ballyhaunis today heading west with about 4 newish looking long yellow tanks... Anyone know what these were?

Losty Dublin · 06-10-2014 7:00pm

Pete2k wrote: »

Train stopped in ballyhaunis today heading west with about 4 newish looking long yellow tanks... Anyone know what these were?

If they are huge big yellow boxes, it's the Permanent Way train. If it's small flat wagons, they are the pocket vans and are often out between Dublin, Waterford and Ballina.

metrovick001 · 06-10-2014 7:29pm

Most likely the HOBs (ballast) as it ran from Portlaoise to Ballyhaunis last Friday.

Pete2k wrote: »

Train stopped in ballyhaunis today heading west with about 4 newish looking long yellow tanks... Anyone know what these were?

Pete2k · 06-10-2014 10:23pm

Only got a quick look as I was passing but they looked like chemical tanks but can't be sure... they had the Iarnrod Eireann logo plastered on the side... The train entered and seemed to stop on platform 2... ok cheers guys was just curious hadn't seen this one before...

John Denver · 09-02-2015 11:48pm

Anyone have any details on the Friday DFDS flow from Waterford to Ballina? The last 2 weeks it has been held until Monday! Is this temporary or a permanent change?

metrovick001 · 11-02-2015 5:43pm

It ran on Friday week ago abit with no containers.

John Denver wrote: »

Anyone have any details on the Friday DFDS flow from Waterford to Ballina? The last 2 weeks it has been held until Monday! Is this temporary or a permanent change?

John Denver · 12-02-2015 11:49am

metrovick001 wrote: »

It ran on Friday week ago abit with no containers.

Sorry it was Monday 26th January and Monday 9th Feb it ran on Mondays

metrovick001 · 13-02-2015 8:36pm

How did the loadings look on those Mondays?

John Denver wrote: »

Sorry it was Monday 26th January and Monday 9th Feb it ran on Mondays

Railfreight

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