Call for reform of motor tax system

extra-ordinary_ · 10-08-2020 7:11pm #1

Have a read...

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0810/1158332-motor-tax-report/

There have been calls for the Motor Tax system to be substantially reformed to retain revenue that is currently received through taxes on car and fuel ownership, as the country moves to more widespread use of electric vehicles.

The call comes from the Economist Colm McCarthy, the author of a new Economic report commissioned by Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance.

Speaking on Today with Sarah McInerney, Colm McCarthy suggested motorists could be charged for the use of the road system, rather than owning cars or buying cars or for paying for fuel.

corsav6 · 10-08-2020 7:14pm

Didn't take long to read. Sounds like someone just filing the silence there, not a whole lot of info.

Kilboor · 10-08-2020 7:15pm

How exactly would any of that work? So you're charged more tax if you use your car on busy roads? Prepare for quiet roads becoming busy!
How would this be enforced? How does this help with moving to greener cars?

RTE report is a little light on details

Eric Cartman · 10-08-2020 7:24pm

Kilboor wrote: »

How exactly would any of that work? So you're charged more tax if you use your car on busy roads? Prepare for quiet roads becoming busy!
How would this be enforced? How does this help with moving to greener cars?

RTE report is a little light on details

I think the very poorly described angle they're getting at would be dynamically priced tolls on larger roads, Ala M50 would be 1 euro per exit between 8-10am and 4-7pm it would be free / 25 cent an exit after that, N7 anywhere from Sallins inbound 10 cent an exit at peak times etc...

all it would do is make every housing estate and weird runs like the green hills road absolutely mad.

Duckjob · 10-08-2020 7:39pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think the very poorly described angle they're getting at would be dynamically priced tolls on larger roads, Ala M50 would be 1 euro per exit between 8-10am and 4-7pm it would be free / 25 cent an exit after that, N7 anywhere from Sallins inbound 10 cent an exit at peak times etc...

all it would do is make every housing estate and weird runs like the green hills road absolutely mad.

That's easily prevented by putting retractable bollards in said estates to block thru private motor traffic altogether. Also gives emergency services quicker routes to get where they need to go quickly in an emergency.

Rows Grower · 10-08-2020 7:43pm

Mr McCarthy is talking out of his hole.

Eric Cartman · 10-08-2020 7:43pm

Duckjob wrote: »

That's easily prevented by putting retractable bollards in said estates to block thru private motor traffic altogether. Also gives emergency services quicker routes to get where they need to go quickly in an emergency.

its not just estates , just smaller roads that motorways were built to avoid. Couldn't bolard those off

Atlantic Dawn · 10-08-2020 8:07pm

With Covid the last thing you want is to be using a carsharing vehicle. The public transport system has a long long way to go before it's a viable alternative to owning a car, even in Dublin.

saabsaab · 10-08-2020 8:23pm

Car tax is outdated and needs total reform. Taxation by use is a good idea but how to administer?

Move the taxes to the fossil fuels (include electricity) simple. the more you use the more you pay!

Duckjob · 10-08-2020 8:27pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Car tax is outdated and needs total reform. Taxation by use is a good idea but how to administer?

Move the taxes to the fossil fuels (include electricity) simple. the more you use the more you pay!

Electricity is and will always be used for a lot more than charging electric cars.

Rodney Bathgate · 10-08-2020 8:30pm

Make cyclists pay the road tax.

saabsaab · 10-08-2020 8:32pm

Duckjob wrote: »

Electricity is and will always be used for a lot more than charging electric cars.

True.

wonski · 10-08-2020 8:35pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Car tax is outdated and needs total reform. Taxation by use is a good idea but how to administer?

Move the taxes to the fossil fuels (include electricity) simple. the more you use the more you pay!

Taxation by use can be easily implemented by charging it at the pump and charging stations.

Any other ideas are just worse.

But the above will never happen, the yearly tax rates are handy and easy to manage system so it will stay.

Unless the UK introduced something else and then their contractor and a bunch of consultants will have a chance to make a deal with Irish government to introduce similar system here...

saabsaab · 10-08-2020 8:55pm

'above will never happen, the yearly tax rates are handy and easy to manage system so it will stay.'

I'm not so sure, easier if there they didn't need staff to run it. When I say 'it' both systems pre 2008 and after both poor.

Atlantic Dawn · 10-08-2020 8:59pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Make cyclists pay the road tax.

Those wearing lycra would be on the highest tax band

saabsaab · 10-08-2020 9:08pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Those wearing lycra would be on the highest tax band

Tax the lycra like a micra!

saabsaab · 10-08-2020 9:24pm

Perhaps introduce a transport tax on all? X amount per year on all.

Rodney Bathgate · 10-08-2020 9:25pm

Tax rebate for attractive Lycra clad ladies.

Dravokivich · 10-08-2020 10:07pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Mr McCarthy is talking out of his hole.

Yeah, he needs to look into the changes that came in only a few months ago about importing cars.

Mr. McCarthy said the current system incentivises people to buy old less fuel efficient cars from the UK.

CoBo55 · 10-08-2020 10:40pm

Slow news day....

jim salter · 10-08-2020 11:17pm

Maybe they should look into all those VWs that are in lower tax bracket based on false emissions

BonnieSituation · 10-08-2020 11:19pm

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

Have a read...

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0810/1158332-motor-tax-report/

I stopped reading at "Colm McCarthy". You should have too.

Idbatterim · 10-08-2020 11:19pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Those wearing lycra would be on the highest tax band

Not if they are female and hot

mikeecho · 10-08-2020 11:48pm

wonski wrote: »

Taxation by use can be easily implemented by charging it at the pump and charging stations.

Any other ideas are just worse.

But the above will never happen, the yearly tax rates are handy and easy to manage system so it will stay.

Unless the UK introduced something else and then their contractor and a bunch of consultants will have a chance to make a deal with Irish government to introduce similar system here...

That was implemented by the FF gov lead by Jack Lynch back in the late 70's

Extra tax was put on petrol, and motor tax abolished for certain HP cars and bikes.

A few years later... Motor tax was reinstated, and the extra tax on petrol stayed.

Let's not repeat history.

LillySV · 10-08-2020 11:54pm

Country would have more money for the roads if they didn’t pay as much money to C*@£;$ like Colm McCarthy

mikeecho · 11-08-2020 12:51am

This whole thing about regigging the motor tax system, is a little heads up to those with EV's

The days of cheap EV motoring are coming to an end.

EV , petrol, diesel, LPG, CNG, hybrid.. all will be paying a substantial yearly motor tax.

saabsaab · 11-08-2020 1:16am

mikeecho wrote: »

That was implemented by the FF gov lead by Jack Lynch back in the late 70's

Extra tax was put on petrol, and motor tax abolished for certain HP cars and bikes.

A few years later... Motor tax was reinstated, and the extra tax on petrol stayed.

Let's not repeat history.

That's not true, it never was tried. The cost was not put on the fuel just tax abolished for lower hp cars.

jimmycrackcorm · 11-08-2020 1:28am

Kilboor wrote: »

How exactly would any of that work? So you're charged more tax if you use your car on busy roads? Prepare for quiet roads becoming busy!
How would this be enforced? How does this help with moving to greener cars?

RTE report is a little light on details

Hasn't stopped people using quieter roads than the M50 for example.

liamog · 11-08-2020 2:10am

It's a pretty standard policy move in the anti EV playbook. The Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance is an industry group set up to delay the transition to EV as it reduces servicing revenue.

mikeecho · 11-08-2020 7:59am

saabsaab wrote: »

That's not true, it never was tried. The cost was not put on the fuel just tax abolished for lower hp cars.

And 5p was added to fuel.

Look... Any fuel price increase is there to stay.. motor tax might go away, but like s bad penny it will come back.. and the extra fuel tax.. that will always be there.

Just read about NORA .. that's running at a surplus.. it's no longer needed.
But they refuse to remove it,. Instead they say it'll be used for environment measures.

Superfoods · 11-08-2020 8:38am

Duckjob wrote: »

That's easily prevented by putting retractable bollards in said estates to block thru private motor traffic altogether. Also gives emergency services quicker routes to get where they need to go quickly in an emergency.

At the cost of million......

Superfoods · 11-08-2020 8:42am

liamog wrote: »

It's a pretty standard policy move in the anti EV playbook. The Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance is an industry group set up to delay the transition to EV as it reduces servicing revenue.

Looks like Colm took a few quid to stick his name on a doc which already had the answer before the start

“And there will not be a whole heap of EVs [electric vehicles] on Irish roads for a least a few years,” he added. The capacity to meet a one million EV target was simply not there, and there were not enough plants yet to generate batteries for EVs.

Henry Ford III · 11-08-2020 9:20am

This idea seems to crop up every few months.

A circular discussion takes place and we end up precisely nowhere.

Duckjob · 11-08-2020 9:26am

Superfoods wrote: »

At the cost of million......

They're a drop in the ocean compared to other road infrastructure.

Very worthwhile spend IMO if it closes off estates to rat runs and makes them more pleasant places for people to live.

CrankyHaus · 11-08-2020 9:35am

Duckjob wrote: »

They're a drop in the ocean compared to other road infrastructure.

Very worthwhile spend IMO if it closes off estates to rat runs and makes them more pleasant places for people to live.

They're currently a drop in the ocean because so few of them exist.

Retrofit them to non-motorway roads and housing estates across the Greater Dublin Area and watch that cost soar.

In fact the planning stage alone would be complex, expensive, drawn-out and subject to enormous amounts of appeals. One person's rat-run is another's route to essential services.

Some sort of grant available to local authorities to install such measures in specific estates where the problem is identified or reported by residents may work, slowly and over-time. But an overall implementation in a short period of time to prevent people from avoiding tolled roads is unrealistic.

uncle-mofo · 11-08-2020 10:11am

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Make cyclists pay the road tax.

Why would a cyclist pay motor tax?

liamog · 11-08-2020 10:14am

Superfoods wrote: »

Looks like Colm took a few quid to stick his name on a doc which already had the answer before the start

“And there will not be a whole heap of EVs [electric vehicles] on Irish roads for a least a few years,” he added. The capacity to meet a one million EV target was simply not there, and there were not enough plants yet to generate batteries for EVs.

The study was funded by the "Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance" a group of Irish dealers that are bearish on EV takeup, and are trying to delay the transition to 2040. Personally, I think Ireland isn't big enough to make an iota of difference, cars will be switched over to zero emissions in line with whatever happens in the UK market.

kaahooters · 11-08-2020 10:15am

uncle-mofo wrote: »

Why would a cyclist pay motor tax?

just change the name to road tax and charge 800 per ev and 50 a year for cyclisits, keeping the current system in place untill ice vechiles are gone.

duffman3833 · 11-08-2020 10:33am

tax on fuel would be more straight forward that what was suggested in article. The more you travel the more it will cost.
That will mean however that big old luxobarges will become more affordable as they wouldn be hit with an 1800 tax bill before leaving the driveway and will increase in value big time.

A standard motor tax charge should be implemented, say 150 and the rest of tax is gathered on fuel sales. If they want to get EV's to take off, zero road tax for them but small tax on electricity.

Chiparus · 11-08-2020 10:43am

Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.

Pkiernan · 11-08-2020 10:45am

It will go to a GPS tracked km driven model over the next 10 years ir do.

Chiparus · 11-08-2020 10:49am

Pkiernan wrote: »

It will go to a GPS tracked km driven model over the next 10 years ir do.

Cannot see that going down well in rural areas.

Dravokivich · 11-08-2020 11:30am

Chiparus wrote: »

Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.

Why pick the canals as your boundary point?

CrankyHaus · 11-08-2020 11:33am

Chiparus wrote: »

Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.

I strongly suspect driving into Dublin City Centre only makes sense for many because they get free or subsidised parking as part of their employment in the public sector.
Taxpayer subsidised single occupant car journeys into Dublin City Centre at rush hour is madness and any government serious about tackling congestion would review it.

Obviously for essential service shift workers who cannot get public transport at the times they start and finish work such parking should be provided. But as it as they often go without, eg St James Hospital staff, while many working 9-5 in public sector offices in Dublin City Centre continue to get it. The Gardai simply deal with the problem by parking illegally in front of all their stations, which is necessary but sub-optimal.

Horseshoe600 · 11-08-2020 11:34am

The underlying point of McCarthys article is the state is currently highly dependent on tax income from motorists. As more and more people switch to EV over the coming years the tax income from VRT, excise on fuel, motor tax, VAT etc will fall off a cliff.

This will blow a hole in the state's income and will lead to some future government coming up with new and creative ways to tax motorists by some other means.

Ultimately people switching to EV over the coming years to save money may find that they'll be getting taxed on usage or tolls or charges or by some other means.

Atlantic Dawn · 11-08-2020 11:53am

Allowing alternating number plates in to the city would in theory cut traffic by near 50%, even reg one day odd the next.

Henry Ford III · 11-08-2020 4:53pm

duffman3833 wrote: »

tax on fuel would be more straight forward that what was suggested in article. The more you travel the more it will cost.
That will mean however that big old luxobarges will become more affordable as they wouldn be hit with an 1800 tax bill before leaving the driveway and will increase in value big time.

A standard motor tax charge should be implemented, say 150 and the rest of tax is gathered on fuel sales. If they want to get EV's to take off, zero road tax for them but small tax on electricity.

That's one of the several reasons that such a change will never happen. The Green's just wouldn't have it.

EV's are on the up sales wise and based on the very realistic assumption that an overall drop in revenue form the motoring sector won't be allowed happen that area is the obvious one for additional taxation.

saabsaab · 11-08-2020 5:13pm

The fuel guzzling 'luxobarge' is outdated and on the way out, not that many on the road or being produced so they won't really have much effect overall. Policy won't be determined by them.

Henry Ford III · 11-08-2020 5:34pm

Still plenty of bigger engined vehicles about, and more are being sold new too. They won't be getting cheaper road tax - it simply won't happen.

Any move towards adding motor tax to the price of fuel will be rightly seen as pro urban and anti rural.

Another compelling reason not to entertain such a notion.

saabsaab · 11-08-2020 6:02pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Still plenty of bigger engined vehicles about, and more are being sold new too. They won't be getting cheaper road tax - it simply won't happen.

Any move towards adding motor tax to the price of fuel will be rightly seen as pro urban and anti rural.

Another compelling reason not to entertain such a notion.

There are some big engined vehicles out there but the newer ones are very fuel efficient like a 3.5 litre merc diesel doing 60mpg. Current tax is only 180!

Duckjob · 11-08-2020 7:07pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Make cyclists pay the road tax.

kaahooters wrote: »

just change the name to road tax and charge 800 per ev and 50 a year for cyclisits, keeping the current system in place untill ice vechiles are gone.

No problem with paying €50 for a bike as long as the taxes are kept in fair proportion according to the main factors like road wear caused.

https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

Fancy an annual tax of €833,333 to drive ? Didn't think so. Away with your nonsense.

Call for reform of motor tax system

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