Stallions

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Influential international sire Forty Niner dies aged 35

That is a great age.
In my data he has 250 progeny, 3,996 grandchildren, 1,723 great grandchildren.
If his line continues it will be through his sons Coronado's Quest; Distorted Humor; End Sweep; Luhuk; Roar; Twining.

There are a few horses where Forty Niner is now in their first generation e.g.
Artenetra (f) (2018) out of Always Annie (f) (2010) by Mount Nelson (m) (2004) out of Independence (f) (1998) out of Yukon Hope (f) (1993) by Forty Niner (m) (1985).

250 progeny that’s a NH sires covers in one season here now in some cases with the way breeding is going.

Any word on where Siskin will stand at the end of his racing career?

Night Of Thunder just keeps on impressing. A Dante winner, an Italian Oaks winner, this lad can do it all and he's just £25k.

Dubawi over Galileo, the 2 most potent lines in European Racing. Thankfully Dubawi is keeping the Dubai Millennium line going. His sons are making fine stallions and their sons are too with the French Derby winner being out of Ballylinch's Make Believe out of Dubawi's other 2,000 Guineas winner Makfi.

Donnacha O'Brien's Nicest won on her debut today but I still can't get my head around them paying 6 million for her Irish Oaks winning mother Chiquita. I know that it's a great family but Chiquita was a wayward type and being by Montjeu wouldn't have helped.

It's encouraging to see a 2yo American Pharoah filly getting a mile on her debut. He's been a hard stallion to keep believing in after Ocean Atlantique looked like he wasn't happy at a trip in the French Derby.

Hopefully two slightly wrongs will make a right one in Nicest. I see the favourite in her race Willow is yet another daughter of American Pharoah ( x Peeping Fawn) who finished back in 3rd.

According to the Racing Post in GB and Ireland American Pharoah is 0 for 5 runners at 10-11f, 0 for 2 at 12-13f, 0 for 1 on Heavy, 0 for 2 on Good to Soft.

Firm ground and a mile or less seem to be what his stock need.

Faugheen wrote: »

Camelot appears to be turning into a reliable stallion just based on a quick look at him. Still a bit off Galileo of course but continuing on the Montjeu legacy can only be a good thing.

For the type of horses he's producing he's seems to be very reasonable at €40,000 compared to the silly money some other stallions are making.

He's still a long way from being a Galileo, for sure he can produce plenty of Classic contenders and he has produced an Irish Derby and Irish Oak's winner.

There has been a problem sealing the deal when he has had more obvious classic contenders which is basically where he falls down.

Sir Dragonet started favourite for the Epsom Derby and didn't live up to the hype then or subsequently.

English King started favourite for the Epsom Derby and didn't live up to the hype then or subsequently.

Pink Dogwood nearly started favourite for the Epsom Oaks where she fell short and then she started favourite for the Pretty Polly and then the Irish Oaks, she again failed to win or progress from her previous runs.

The beautifully bred Goddess looked like a goddess and she failed to progress, although her full sister Athena did the business at Grade 1 level without doing too much damage in European racing. Maybe he needs some more G1 producing mares sent to him to let him produce some Championship class runners. The most dissapointing thing about English King was that he is from a great family and he still couldn't live up to his promise.

His best on ratings so far have been Sir Dragonet and Hunting Horn, although I think his Australian G1 winning colt Russian Camelot looks to be the most promising thing that he has produced.

Is there a stamina question over his ability to produce proper Leger and Cup horses?

RIP to Rip Van Winkle who passed away in New Zealand. He was the 2nd highest rated of all Galileo's progeny. He had a good second career as a stallion, with a great start fading to an unspectacular rest of his career in Ireland before Coolmore dropped him. He seemed to have found an ideal new home at stud in New Zealand where he was starting to bang in G1 winners.

Given that he was successful in New Zealand it seems likely that a replacement Galileo line stallion will be heading off to NZ to replace him.

Who will it be?

A classic winning miler like the Gurkha would be a good replacement for him but hopefully Coolmore aren't ready to let him go without seeing what kind of level he can make it as a stallion.

Coolmore purchase Wootton Bassett from Haras d'Etreham, 12 years old and one good son, Almanzor.
His pedigree is a bit different from the usual Coolmore stallion descended from Northern Dancer.
Wootton Bassett is from the Mr Prospector sire line, and his damsire is not a Northern Dancer sire line either.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Coolmore purchase Wootton Bassett from Haras d'Etreham, 12 years old and one good son, Almanzor.
His pedigree is a bit different from the usual Coolmore stallion descended from Northern Dancer.
Wootton Bassett is from the Mr Prospector sire line, and his damsire is not a Northern Dancer sire line either.

He's a little bit different and his career is definitely on the up and if they are being honest about sending him plenty of Galileo mares then he should click very nicely with them. This year's 2 year olds from him are very good and his dearer fee stock have yet to hit the racecourse.

He has Northern Dancer on his sire Ifraaj's side. Ifraaj is out of a Nureyev mare. He has more Northern Dancer in him than he has Mr Prospector but both are well back on the pedigree. I suspect that the fact that he's out of the Zafonic line is a big plus to them. They can't get enough of the Zafonic mare Prudenzia's stock. They keep spending multi-millions on her progeny and it looks like a wise investment.

There's Ahanoora and Park Appeal in there too and they regularly spend millions on foals from the Park Appeal family.


Using War Front on the Galileo mares is working well for producing quality stock but they're not teak tough middle-distance types. Wootton Basset has produced middle-distance types, if he gets the mares sent to him he'll produce Classic horses.

Coolmore's decision to purchase Wootton Bassett received some early vindication through his daughter Audarya's win in today's 10f G1 Prix Jean Romanet. James Fanshawe has done an amazing job to get this filly ( who won her last race in an all-weather Newcastle Handicap off a mark of 99) to this level, she was a 48/1 shot today.

I says wrote: »

Chindit wins the champagne for WB. Coolmore delighted. Australia sires ledger winner will they stick with him or will he make his way onto the NH roster?

I'd say that they will stick with Australia for another season or two. People are naturally sweet on Australia but Coolmore themselves have little enough interest in running his stock but thanks to Joseph O'Brien and Jessica Harrington his stock have been showing enough talent to keep him in his flat role.

His long term future is hard to suss, I don't think Coolmore gave him a fair shake at all, for a stallion that they were touting as the successor to Galileo they didn't seem to be sending many high class mares his way and after a decent haul for his first crop of 2yos they dropped most of their interest in running his stock from then on.

I'd put it this way with all the Derby winners Coolmore have at their disposal the only one that they have put some faith in is Camelot and that was mostly down to results forcing him back up the roster.

Runners from Pour Moi, Ruler Of The World and Australia are thin to non existent on the ground at Ballydoyle. What chance will the likes of Anthony Van Dyck get? Then you have all the Not so hot Irish Derby winners ( waves at Capri ) who are lucky if they get to go straight to Coolmore NH division.

They need to be planning for the post-Galileo days and need to replace like with like.

This breeding game is easy for some.

Bargain buy and Nunthorpe winner Margot Did ( a 10,000 Guineas breeze up purchase) got sent to Galileo for her first few covers and the result was two G1 performers in Mission Impassible and Magic attitude. Mission Impassible was a G2 winner and 3rd in a G1 Prix Marcel Boussac as well as finishing 2nd in a Keenland G1 on her last start for J C Rouget.

Her Full Sister Magic Attitude went one better with a win in the G1 Belmont Oaks this weekend.

I think that win makes it 88? individual G1 winners for Galileo, with nine individual G1 winers so far this year.

Replacing Galileo will be mission impossible for Coolmore. Mind you with all those blue hen mares he's been getting it would be surprising if they can't make a new top stallion out of all that blue blood.

My guess for Sottsass is 40,000.
Waldgeist is 17,500.
It is hard to know what will happen in this pandemic.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

What is the logic?

Tattersalls October Sales Day 1 yesterday.
Lot 174 Yearling colt by Kingman out of Galicuix sold for 2,700,000 guineas (GBP 2,835,000, or Euro 3,099,935).

The reason for the high price is he is a half-brother to 2000 Guineas winner Galileo Gold, who won GBP 960,886 on the racecourse, and stands at a stud fee of Euro 7,500.
Galileo Gold was bought as a yearling in 2014 for Euro 33,000, or 1.06% of the price of the untried yearling sold yesterday.

The foal that went for over three million Euro is a half-brother to a classic winner, not a full brother.
The other half-brothers (i.e. colt foals from Galicuix) were:
Dubawi Sands (unraced)
Eshaasy (earned Euro 7,167)
Palladium (earned Euro 18,880)
Petit Palais (earned Euro 15,682)

Choumica (filly) who is a full-sibling to Galileo Gold (earned Euro 7,191).

I doubt that yearling should have reached 100,000 guineas.

Triumph hurdle favorite 2023

I says wrote: »

Coolmore very subdued so far at book 1. Godolphin really supporting frankel as well as their own dubawi.

Big return today 2.8 for the well related filly

tryfix wrote: »

Not a bad move at all. She walks very well and no matter how she runs there's a lucrative second career ahead for her. A collector's item is how Magnier described her.

At the top end of the market there any amount of deep pockets, especially for these choice fillies. I don't remember so many fillies going for 7 figure sums in previous decades.

Moguls sister is now sales topper. You’d be afraid to race her at that price.

tryfix wrote: »

There was some mention today by the consignors of a foal share in regards to the purchase of Japan and Mogul. Smoke and mirrors.

What’s in it for them then?

Kingman has been chosen as the sire to cover the mighty Enable. It's a good choice as it should inject a small bit of speed into Enable's stamina filled pedigree.

Juddmonte Stallion and full brother to Frankel, Noble Mission has been banished to Japan where his talents are likely to be much appreciated. Mobile Mission produced the high class G1 winner Code Of Honor and the classy young stayer Spanish Mission from his first crop. His stock seem to be well behaved types who progress with age, traits that are very often lacking in the enigmatic stock that his brother Frankel throws.

Former Ballydoyle inmate Declaration Of War is another fine young stallion who was mopped up by Japan as well. He could have done well if he had been sent back to Ireland from the States, but he will do well anywhere that he goes.

It wasn't really surprising to see Noble Mission leaving the USA for a new career in Japan. For a multiple G1 winning full brother to Frankel he had been standing at a fraction of Frankel's fee.

I think that he is definitely the best quality Galileo stallion to hit Japanese shores and given that Japan is saturated with the Deep Impact line and that Deep Impact has clicked very well with the Galileo mares that he has covered then the reverse cross of Galileo over Deep Impact should be an attractive option. This should offer Noble Mission an open goal to score highly in Japan.

The Return Of Mares is published in early November each year by Weatherbys. https://www.weatherbys.co.uk/news/october-2019/weatherbys-return-of-mares-2019
You can buy it here at Betrends (Weatherbys online shop). Cost is about GBP 64. https://bettrendsshop.co.uk/publications/

Jukebox Jury had living colts (44) and living fillies (36) in 2018.
He covered 122 registered mares and 17 unnamed or unregistered mares in 2019.
There are 547 (?) stallions in the Return Of Mares 2019 summary who produced 7,203 colts and 6,840 fillies, and they covered 21,633 mares (18,991 registered + 2,642 unregistered) in 2019.

In the work I have started, looking at about 3,000 yearlings sold at a flat sale, one horse was unsold to a four figure bid (presumably did not meet the reserve).
That horse won an English classic a few years later, beating the odds on favourite, who did not finish in the top ten. Groupthink dominates.
My advice is to buy a horse that is rejected by others, a horse with an obvious (cosmetic) blemish.
All horses are inspected by the auction houses (they visit studs) before they accept them into a sale, so there can't be much wrong with them.
They have been passed by good judges and will be sold to poor judges.
Buyers at a sale are useless judges. They don't need to be good judges.
They are spending other people's money. Horses are bid up and fetch more than they should. Groupthink dominates (worth repeating).
Are you buying to sell it again at a larger price (what is known in the stock market as the "greater fool" strategy), or are you buying to race?

Caravaggio transfered to Ashford

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I am reading The Great Breeders and Their Methods (1982) by Abram S Hewitt. The author also wrote Sire Lines (1977).

The author was discussing Whirlaway (1938) by Blenheim.
Jones (Ben Jones, trainer) told jockey Eddie Arcaro that Whirlaway had no need to be on or the near the pace in the early stage of a race,
"This horse can catch any horse in front of him that he can see! Don't worry!"
Whirlaway charged through to victory in the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness, and the Belmont Stakes. to give Calumet the first of its two Triple Crowns.
He (Whirlaway) did not prove to be a successful sire, however, and was sold to Marcel Boussac in France, where he remained unsuccessful.
An interesting remark at the end of page 171 following the above discussion of Whirlaway
"(It is a peculiar fact that late-charging runners seldom made good sires.)"

That throwaway remark that Hewitt put in brackets intrigued me.
I remember a few English Derby winners that charged late to win, and they were unsuccessful sires.

1961 Psidium, last most of the way, last rounding Tattenham Corner, won easily (28 runners). Poor sire, Sodium, St Leger winner his best, which put Psidium top of the sires list in 1996, before he was sold to Argentina.
1974 Snow Knight, was a poor sire, but he led from a long way out. He sired Awaasif but little else. (not a late charger)
1980 Henbit, a brave winner, but a poor sire. He raced prominently in the Derby. (not a late charger)
1987 Reference Point, led narrowly all the way. A disappointing sire. (not a late charger)
1994 Erhaab (25 runners), about 16th coming to Tattenham Corner, took the lead about 30 yards from the line. He has 50 offspring in my data, only one rated over 100.
Sold to Japan for GBP 3.5 million, unpopular there, sired less than 300 foals in five years, no graded stakes winners. Back in Europe in 1999, best runner Sorhaab, twice listed runner up.
1995 Lammtarra, 8th into straight (15 runners) "strong burst inside final furlong to lead close home".
He stood one season at Dalham Hall, Newmarket, was sold to Arrow Stud, Japan for USD 30 million, a failure there with three Group 3 winners.
In Europe his best winners were Simeon (Gr 3), Melikah (Listed). He was brought back from Japan and retired.
1998 High-Rise, 12th straight (15 runners), won by a head. At stud in Japan, back to Europe in 2004 as a NH stallion. "has sired a few winners on the flat and over jumps but none worth mentioning by name" Classic Winners 1980-2015 by John Crofts.
1999 Oath (not a late charger) but a poor sire. Sold to Japan for USD 8(?) million, back in Ireland in 2006, later auctioned at Goresbridge for 205k and went to India.
2003 Kris Kin, 8th straight, ran on to lead final 100yds. At stud in Ireland, then Italy, then Libya where he broke his neck trying to jump a gate. He failed to sire a stakes winner in Europe.
2017 Wings Of Eagles, 16th straight, strong run to lead near finish. His stud fee went 12k, 6.5k, 6k. No good offspring yet.

That's very interesting, and of course the fastest finishing Derby runner that wasn't a Derby winner the incomparable Dancing Brave was a moderate sire. I was struck by the fact that the Drave was a plain looking parrot mouthed horse.

Is it a thing that many of these fast finishing champs were not physically built for running at a even pace throughout the race ?

Looking at sales topping physicsally perfect types and how they run as racehorses might give a clue.

Wings Of Eagles was a fairly perfect physical and he had only one year as a flat sire. This was not due to any flaws in his record as sire because his first yearlings were only sold this year with a few making €60,000 off his €12,000 fee.

Coolmore could make far more off him as a NH sire covering hundreds of mares at €5-6k than as a staying type of flat sire fighting for the scraps left over after the speedsters had their fill of mares.



I have been pondering if the Epsom Derby is almost finished as a top stallion production line. It's not there yet, Sea The Stars Galileo and Camelot are keeping the flag flying with the likes of Australia basically treading water.

Breeders didn't want the bred in the purple Ruler Of The World, Golden Horn is struggling, Pour Moi not wanted, can't see a que for AVD and Serpentine.

Things are deteriorating quickly in regards to future Epsom Derby winners hopes of maintaining an influence on the flat breed.

tryfix wrote: »

Coolmore's experiments with using top US sires on their own band of top broodmares keeps bearing fruit.

Uncle Mo's Lippizaner won a Listed race at Doncaster today and helped to prove that these US stallions can produce horses that can go well on the Soft to Heavy ground that has been plaguing European flat racing in the last few years. It's a pity that Lippizaner's dam Irish Lights a big budget buy Champion racemare in Australia passed away this year before she had gotten into her stride as a broodmare.

Van Gogh produced a juvenile G1 win in France today for Coolmore's US Triple Crown winning American Pharoah. The fact that the win was on bad ground is a great sign that these US breeds are going to be right for European racing.

American Pharoah had his fee substantially reduced this year, hopefully Coolmore will make plenty of use of him for themselves.

It was quite disappointing to see Caravaggio leaving these shores for the USA where he will stand for a lower fee than he was getting here. July Cup winners by Scat Daddy don't grow on trees and he was a G1 winner monster juvenile as well. Surely he was bound to have a successful career in Europe? Sending him to the USA to stand for a pittance seems daft.

Does Van Gogh get a place at stud after this victory? And is Lippizaner given a chance also if he wins another couple of group races as a three year old. All those Galileo mares need an outcross. I’m not a fan of the 2x3 to Galileo even though Jim Bolger is getting a tune out of that cross.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The English Derby will always be a target. The race is known worldwide. It is the best advertising.
The winner has to produce winners from his early crops. If not he gets old fast.
Stallions are a product. English Derby winners serve only a small part of the flat market. Sprinter and miler stallions get most of the flat business.

I was reading Sire Lines by Abram S Hewitt.
In the chapter on War Relic it mentions he beat Whirlaway.
"What Whirlaway needed was a fast early pace, so that he could have a bunch of exhausted horses, all slowing down, when he began one of his famous come-from-behind charges.
In the Narrangansett Special ... the most interesting feature of the race was the slow early pace ... not enough to leave a good horse exhausted ... "

Horses do not speed up at the finish.
Fast finishers are just slowing down less that the horses they are passing.
Fast finishers probably have only one speed, a speed that is a little less than the pace of the field, until the field tire.

As a big race target to be won in its own right to make a stallion the Epsom Derby is now a woeful shadow of its former self.

Looking at the record of Epsom Derby winners at stud in the last 20 years or so, they tend to fall into 2 categories. There's the promising 2yo or 3yo maiden winner who comes on to win a Derby Trial before making their name in the Epsom Derby. Then there are the already proven 2yo group winners that go through the 2,000 Guineas en route to Epsom glory.

The latter tend to make it as stallions, the former tend to be relative flops.

The only one to cross the gap from promising maiden winner to top stallion is Galileo who won his 2yo maiden by 10L and he had demonstrated that he would have been a group class 2yo if given the chance at that age.

The successes, relative successes, failures and relative failures from 2000 until now.

2000 Sinndar G1 winning 2yo, a relative failure with some high class success but he's standing at only €3,500 )

2001 Galileo ( the exception that proves the rule )

2002 High Chaparral G1 winning 2yo who had a very successful stallion career

2003 Kris Kin 2 1/2L maiden winner as a 2yo ( a failure as a stallion who ended up as a €4,000 dual purpose sire )

2004 North Light a 1 3/4L maiden winner as a 2yo ( a failure as a sire although he did sire a St Leger winner )

2005 Motivator a G1 winning 2yo ( a moderate success as a sire even though he produced the likes of Arc winner Treve )

2006 Sir Percy a G1 winning 2yo ( a relative success because he has been banging in the winners over the years despite being very unfashionably bred and having no star progeny )

2007 Authorized a G1 winning 2yo ( a relative
success but not a spectacular one )

2008 New Approach a G1 winning 2yo ( a definite success )

2009 Sea The Stars a G2 winning 2yo ( a definite success )

2010 Workforce a 6L maiden winner as a 2yo ( a definite failure )

2011 Pour Moi a 2yo maiden winner by a neck ( a relative failure standing at €3,500 despite having sired an Epsom Derby winner)

2012 Camelot a G1 winning 2yo ( a definite success)

2013 Ruler Of The World didn't run as a 2yo ( too early to write him off, has had his G1 winner but has been monstrously hampered by a lack of support. A low starting fee made him look like a failure before he started)

2014 Australia a G2 winning 2yo ( a success but has to do more to prove himself )

2015 Golden Horn, a head winner of a 2yo maiden ( the jury is out but workmanlike is probably the kindest assessment at this early stage)

2016 Harzand, finished 5th in sole start as a 2yo ( first 2yos this year, fee has drifted down to €8,000 but is in a good stud so may make into a relative success given time )

2017 Wings of Eagles, a 1 1/4L maiden winner and G1 9th as a 2yo ( an inevitable failure due to one season as a flat sire before being consigned to NH duties )

2018 Masar, a G3 winning and G1 placed 2yo ( just starting )

2019 Anthony Van Dyck a G2 winning and G1 placed 2yo ( still racing )

2020 Serpentine had one unpacked run as a 2yo ( still racing, likely to go straight to NH duties )

It's fairly clear that an Epsom Derby win no longer confers a clear path to stallion stardom unless the Derby winner has shown that they possessed significant precocity as a 2yo.

Yesterday Treasure Beach clocked up his 6th individual G1 winner on the flat as a stallion when Mumy Beach won a G1 in Argentina. Not bad going for a horse who'd be lucky to be at Coolmore's NH division if he'd stayed in Europe.

He stands for $7,500 in Florida and shuttles to Argentina for the Southern Hemisphere breeding season.

Camelot had his 4th individual G1 winner in 2020 when Sunny Queen won a decent Heavy ground G1 in Munich yesterday. That's 7 individual G1 winners so far for him. Not bad for a horse who started his Stud career at just €20,000, who is still standing at only €40,000. He marks his stock and they should sell even better than ever as his own stock rises. I still think there's a progression problem with his best stock but there's also a great deal of love out there for the type of horse he produces.


Lope De Vega had his 4th individual G1 winner of 2020 when Aunt Pearl won the Fillies Juvenile Turf on Friday night. He was another B team stallion when he started at €15,000 and he has built from there to a €100,000 fee. His two G1 winning Juveniles this year were I think conceived off a fee of just €50,000. His son Lope Y Fernandez finished a fine 3rd in the Breeder's Cup mile and has the makings of a nice income earner at some stud if they resist the temptation to keep him in training for another year ( quit while you're ahead)


Australia's 2nd individual G1 winner this year/ever was in another big G1 when Order Of Australia won the Breeders Cup mile from out of the blue. Not sure that Australia can take too much credit for the win with the dam being a bit of a Blue Hen ( She has the very promising Santa Barbara by Camelot to go to war with next year so we shall see if her magic produces a 3rd G1 winner by 3 different Coolmore sires) 2020 was a badly needed great year for Australia.


Australia's change in fortune is a sign that maybe Gleneagles isn't to be written off as a top prospect yet. He has been a bit disappointing after such a strong start with his first Juveniles.

Zoffany is another one that should give hope to Gleneagles fans. His stock rose after his first crop of quality juveniles and so did his price to a high of €45,000. It has now drifted back down €22,500. He had a G1 winning 2yo filly last year and a G1 winning 2yo colt this year and he had the 2nd in the weekend's Juvenile Fillies Turf. He's an underrated stallion with some of his best bred crops yet to hit the track.

Some of the best Coolmore broodmare prospects have been sent to other than War Front this year with Magic Wand staying in Australia to visit Coolmore's shuttling Justify.

The war is well and truly over between Coolmore and Godolphin with such Coolmore stars as Minding, Found, Forever Together, Hydrangea, Rhododendron among the 31 Galileo mares to have visited Dubawi this year. The results should be a delicious prospect to look forward to.