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Luas fine

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    #32
    angel01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,030 ✭✭✭angel01


    This thread sickens me. Noone has the right to sit there and travel for free. I have never travelled on either the bus/luas without a valid ticket and seeing scumbags like those who posted earlier claim they never pay sickens me to the core and it is the people who law abide that have to fork out when they end up putting the prices up.

    I can't stand it and sorry but I feel so strongly on this. :mad::mad: In my eyes, they are downright stealing.


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    #33
    Goonerette
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Goonerette


    This thread sums up everything that's wrong with this country. It sickens me. Irish people refuse to pay for a service they've used because

    "public transport should be free anyway" :rolleyes:
    "the company that runs the Luas is (tenuously) linked to Israel" :confused:
    "I'm too stupid/unwilling to figure out the Student Travelcard system, shuure who cares, I'll get away with it anyway with my culchie accent" :eek:

    It's stealing, plain and simple. Attempting to justify it with some crypto-communist bulls**t rationalisations only makes things worse.

    Just shoot me. :mad:


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    #34
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    There have been many times that I have resented the cost of my monthly short hop ticket, given the service received.

    I think the younger me might have been tempted to have jumped the fare in silent protest but the older me is too lazy to do it and would be too embarrassed as well!

    I think the evasion of fare due to Veolia being in Israel might have a point if the Luas was privately owned.

    I've known anarchists and crusties in the past who would jump fares based on so-called political beliefs. Freeganism apparently. But these lads lived in squats and claimed the dole. Pure dropouts. Living a normal life and protesting about one company by doing something in your favour seems a bit wishy washy to me.


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    #35
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    angel01 wrote: »
    This thread sickens me. Noone has the right to sit there and travel for free. I have never travelled on either the bus/luas without a valid ticket and seeing scumbags like those who posted earlier claim they never pay sickens me to the core and it is the people who law abide that have to fork out when they end up putting the prices up.

    I can't stand it and sorry but I feel so strongly on this. :mad::mad: In my eyes, they are downright stealing.

    Totally agree - if you don't want to pay don't use the service, end of.


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    #36
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Totally agree - if you don't want to pay don't use the service, end of.

    Ah now Devnull...ye can`t be saying that....there are plenty of poor people out there unable to fund their public transport requirements from their own resources,and is it not only right and proper that those better off than them would step up to the plate and fund it for them...?

    Caring Society an all that ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #37
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Ah now Devnull...ye can`t be saying that....there are plenty of poor people out there unable to fund their public transport requirements from their own resources,and is it not only right and proper that those better off than them would step up to the plate and fund it for them...?

    Caring Society an all that ?
    there are plenty of people that are unable to get to their local train station or bus stop without getting a lift or taxi due to mobility issues, are these the same people you are referring to?


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    #38
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I was referring to the people who can, and are able to pay, but refuse to do so


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    #39
    Karmaman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭Karmaman


    Would a dedicated transport police save more money than it would cost to set-up and run?
    I don't think the fare evaders worry too much about inspectors or fines.
    And the anti-social thing is getting a bit out of hand.


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    #40
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Karmaman wrote: »
    Would a dedicated transport police save more money than it would cost to set-up and run?
    I don't think the fare evaders worry too much about inspectors or fines.
    And the anti-social thing is getting a bit out of hand.
    the police would be no more effective than the current security, procedures are already in place to deal with these people but veolia rpa etc chose not to use them, and there was a promise of 2000 extra guards made several years ago as an election promise that has been shelved and guardai numbers continue to drop so i doubt there will ever be a dedicated transport police, more likely just more hot air from the usual politicians and maybe a redirection of current guardai resources which are unsuitable and already way overstretched!


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    #41
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    I know the answer to this question as I have seen it happen before but...

    What happens if someone has no ticket, is up front about it and casually strolls off. Obviously the Gardai are not going to come on blue lights. Do the ticket checkers utilise their powers of a citizen's arrest? Or can someone just stroll off. I think the current system is based on people who have been caught being jolted in to playing ball.

    A transport police would enable proper arrest.

    And by the way, don't forget that if a monthly ticket costs 120, fine is 50 and people are checked on average less than twice per month then it makes perfect sense to evade.


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    #42
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If a transport cop was a sworn officer he could simply haul the guy off the train in handcuffs PDQ, whereas private security has to call for assistance which means disruption to the service which would quickly get more expensive than the fare lost.

    In Toronto the cops have recently taken over the unarmed transport constables, and in Vancouver the Translink police are armed.


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    #43
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Terrontress wrote: »
    I know the answer to this question as I have seen it happen before but...

    What happens if someone has no ticket, is up front about it and casually strolls off. Obviously the Gardai are not going to come on blue lights. Do the ticket checkers utilise their powers of a citizen's arrest? Or can someone just stroll off. I think the current system is based on people who have been caught being jolted in to playing ball.

    A transport police would enable proper arrest.

    And by the way, don't forget that if a monthly ticket costs 120, fine is 50 and people are checked on average less than twice per month then it makes perfect sense to evade.
    afaik the ticket chekers have the power to detain those suspected of fare evasion/not paying the correct fare


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    #44
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    If a transport cop was a sworn officer he could simply haul the guy off the train in handcuffs PDQ, whereas private security has to call for assistance which means disruption to the service which would quickly get more expensive than the fare lost.

    In Toronto the cops have recently taken over the unarmed transport constables, and in Vancouver the Translink police are armed.
    maybe there are sworn officers in canada but ireland does not operate the same and hauling people off in handcuffs rarely happens unless they become aggressive and even then only as a last resort


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    #45
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    afaik the ticket chekers have the power to detain those suspected of fare evasion/not paying the correct fare

    And how do they do that?

    We can't lay a hand on any passenger to remove them, if we did we'd end up in court pretty quickly. All we can do is ask them to leave and if they don't we have to ring the police.

    It's all well and good saying that there are certain 'powers and procedures' available to checkers but in reality they are in a postion where they have to rely on people being civilised about their fine or about being asked to leave the vehicle.


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    #46
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    maybe there are sworn officers in canada but ireland does not operate the same and hauling people off in handcuffs rarely happens unless they become aggressive and even then only as a last resort

    But why not? If I went in to a shop and was caught trying to steal a €20 garment, I'd expect to be hauled off in handcuffs.

    If I took the Commuter train from Dundalk to Sydney Parade, got off and told a ticket collector to get stuffed and kept walking, I bet I'd get off scott free.

    Put a sworn constable with handcuffs, radio and truncheon in there and then see what happens.


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    #47
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Terrontress wrote: »
    But why not? If I went in to a shop and was caught trying to steal a €20 garment, I'd expect to be hauled off in handcuffs.

    If I took the Commuter train from Dundalk to Sydney Parade, got off and told a ticket collector to get stuffed and kept walking, I bet I'd get off scott free.

    Put a sworn constable with handcuffs, radio and truncheon in there and then see what happens.
    it would be your word against the shop or train ticket checker and the guards only get involved when the ticket checker insists on pressing charges, they then take statements and release the suspected fare evader and that is most likely the end of the matter.

    guards can do nothing unless they themselves witness the crime taking place.


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    #48
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    it would be your word against the shop or train ticket checker and the guards only get involved when the ticket checker insists on pressing charges, they then take statements and release the suspected fare evader and that is most likely the end of the matter.

    guards can do nothing unless they themselves witness the crime taking place.

    Well, I suppose my point hangs on my assertion that there are those who when detected without a ticket stroll off regardless.

    I've seen Leaving Cert result night kids without tickets on the Luas who refused to buy one and refused to get off. Eventually the ticket checker, who was on his own, gave up!

    I can't imagine the Gardai would react quickly to news of a fare evader trying to get away. Transport police accompanying the ticket checkers, powers of arrest, permitted use of force. Just an idea.

    I would say though that in order for it to be successful it would need to be properly resourced. In London I have seen the BTP with dogs, riot vans, decent cars, metal detectors. That is what must be aspired to if such a system is employed here. Not Garda-lite.


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    #49
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Ireland is broke penniless heading back to the early 70s as far as money goes so where is all the cash for more police and police training etc etc going to come from?

    The country can't afford to deal with the number of criminals before the courts and can't afford the police already in place, transport police is not the answer but a zero tolerance of drug users and anti social behaviour with "in their face" policing is the answer and if people break the law they should be locked up in prison no matter how crowded it gets!

    Being a junkie drunk or schizophrenic should be no defence and should not entitle anyone to special favours or treatment!


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    #50
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    As I understand it, Veolia are no longer associated with the Jerusalem tram project. End of discussioon.


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    #51
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Victor wrote: »
    As I understand it, Veolia are no longer associated with the Jerusalem tram project. End of discussioon.

    You can be sure they'll find some other operation to justify fare dodging. Iraq, Tibet, Moldova. It's not the objection that's important, it's not paying the fare!


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    #52
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    I bought a green line monthly ticket last Saturday, since then have used luas at least 14 or 15 times (from Milltown to Harcourt and Harcourt to Sandyford mainly) and not once did inspectors get on and check tickets. In the mornings its too crowded, I suppose (any news of bigger/longer carriages, hate facing the overcrowding every morning?) but I do be on it in the afternoon and evenings too.


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    #53
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    angel01 wrote: »
    This thread sickens me. Noone has the right to sit there and travel for free. I have never travelled on either the bus/luas without a valid ticket and seeing scumbags like those who posted earlier claim they never pay sickens me to the core and it is the people who law abide that have to fork out when they end up putting the prices up.

    I can't stand it and sorry but I feel so strongly on this. :mad::mad: In my eyes, they are downright stealing.

    yeah me not paying €1.70 to go from Smithfield to Jervis is the real problem with this country:rolleyes:

    get a life


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    #54
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    McDougal wrote: »
    yeah me not paying €1.70 to go from Smithfield to Jervis is the real problem with this country:rolleyes:

    It's indicative of a larger issue of being willing to break or ignore the rules, which is the problem with this country. It's a fair complaint.
    McDougal wrote: »
    get a life

    Attack the post, not the poster please!


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    #55
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    -Chris- wrote: »
    It's indicative of a larger issue of being willing to break or ignore the rules, which is the problem with this country. It's a fair complaint.



    Attack the post, not the poster please!

    My problem is that people go after the little man who breaks the odd rule and the real gangsters like Seanie and Fingers screw us for billions. Some people need a sense of perspective.


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    #56
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Which is probably fair comment, but more appropriate for the politics forum than the Commuting & Transport forum tbh.


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    #57
    h8scobes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭h8scobes


    got caught on the dart yesterday, gave wrong name easy as pie ;)


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    #58
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    The company that runs the Luas is connected to Israel. I am one of those that are boycotting ALL Israeli products, but that is not for this thread :)

    Israel are on the internet also. Do us all a favour and boycott that too.


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    #59
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    McDougal wrote: »
    My problem is that people go after the little man who breaks the odd rule and the real gangsters like Seanie and Fingers screw us for billions. Some people need a sense of perspective.

    the "little man" is usually just a common criminal that sees nothing wrong with driving without licence tax insurance etc and wont pay his way but uses someone elses failure as justification for their own inherent criminality.


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    #60
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    When everyone suspects everyone else of breaking the law, this is the result:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010


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    #61
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Regarding the comments re shoplifting, this (Ireland ) is a country where in a court the judge wished Tesco would not bring shoplifters to court, as it was not worth the courts time. ( seen in papers a couple of weeks ago ) .

    Tesco were asked, as I recall, to sort it themselves ... ( ?? )

    If this is the attitude taken by the beaks, how can we prosecute ticketjumpers ?

    whitecollars will pay, junkies and morons will avoid.


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