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Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

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    #62
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    There is lots of streets and buildings named after Colston around Bristol. A primary school just changed their name a year or so ago to something non Colston and they are currently renovating a concert hall named after him in the city centre, but decided not to take the chance to rename it despite plenty of pressure to do so.

    I expect that will get looked into again quite soon.

    The statue will be dragged out of the harbour and stuck in the museum across the other side within a few months.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    He was a slave trader ffs. The IRA blew up Nelson's column, same bloody thing.

    the boyne obelisk was blown up by members of the irish army in 1923......a stable of paintings in many of irelands big houses


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    #64
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    ShamNNspace wrote: »
    Maybe they might head town to ballybunion next and pull down Clinton's statue an throw it in the sea, after all wasn't it his vile wife who on Obamas watch (Power played a part in it too but she got the usual soft soap chat with Duffy the other day) pulverised a nation into the stone age turning it a haven for bandits and training ground for terrorists and a place which now sells slaves in open markets just kilometres from the EUs border. I remember just getting a disinterested half smile and quick change of subject when I mentioned it at the time. Do these Black lives matter too??

    If you were to through the past of every American president there would be a lot of statue's pulled down. They've almost all got blood on their hands.


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    #65
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The notion that young people in the west today are somehow being 'oppressed' is too absurd to entertain.

    No generation has had more opportunities and everything handed to them in history.

    All seems a bit demented really, like there is a serious lack of perspective.

    Except housing


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    #66
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    like Memento Park in Budapest, where they moved all the statues of Lenin, Marx etc. from Hungary's communist era


    That was indeed the will of the people, because communism is just really, really dumb.



    At least slave trading was a profitable and entrepreneurial activity at the time. You cannot judge the past based on today's moral values. We would all have been slave traders given half a chance if we were alive in those days, and it's delusional to think otherwise. Everybody, pretty much everybody, was racist up until well into the early 20th century.


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    #67
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    I'm quite impressed with how far they managed to drag the statue. There is a lot of street furniture between where it was, benches, fountains, bollards. They also didn't throw it in the first bit of the harbour they got to. Doubt they were thinking quite as much about the significance, but the footbridge beside where they threw it in is named after a slave called Pero.

    There was some reports earlier claiming that they took the statue across that bridge, but don't think they did as its not wide enough and the route they appeared to take from some other clips was the other side of the water.


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    #68
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Well that is correct. Statues ( in public) venerate people, while museums explain people and history. However there are two problems

    1) Leaving it to a mob is not any way to do this. Some person somewhere may not like your favourite statue.
    2) If you do leave it to the mob pretty much nothing is left. Very few UK historical figures, apart from a few scientists and poets, would survive much scrutiny. Even some of the writers and scientists might not.

    Yeah but they were campaigning for this for decades. If you keep getting shut down then it's pretty likely that people will take it into their own hands and... they did.

    So what if lots of the statues need to change? Why is that even a problem?


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    #69
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    robinph wrote: »
    I'm quite impressed with how far they managed to drag the statue. There is a lot of street furniture between where it was, benches, fountains, bollards. They also didn't throw it in the first bit of the harbour they got to. Doubt they were thinking quite as much about the significance, but the footbridge beside where they threw it in is named after a slave called Pero.

    There was some reports earlier claiming that they took the statue across that bridge, but don't think they did as its not wide enough and the route they appeared to take from some other clips was the other side of the water.

    Personally, I think they've done some service. Whether you agree or disagree with the statue being hauled down, they are provoking serious debate - a debate that the racists and the English alt right would rather not happen.


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    #70
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah but they were campaigning for this for decades. If you keep getting shut down then it's pretty likely that people will take it into their own hands and... they did.

    So what if lots of the statues need to change? Why is that even a problem?

    The plaque on the statue of Colston was only updated last year to make a very breif reference to slavery, and even getting that approved was a bit of a challenge.


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    #71
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    For maximum effect, the statue should have been beaten with protesters' shoes.


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    #72
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    As long as the follow through with the questioning of their past by reunification its all good.

    Pity in one way, as it will keep the campaign of hate going, which is not good in a Britain that used xenophobia to get out the EU.


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    #73
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I would have preferred it if they'd gone through the route of approaching the local council or whomever has jurisdiction over this but a man like this has no business being idolised like this in the 21st century.

    They've been petitioning for decades. So I think "going through the council" has been covered.


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    #74
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Personally, I think they've done some service. Whether you agree or disagree with the statue being hauled down, they are provoking serious debate - a debate that the racists and the English alt right would rather not happen.

    Definitely happy to see the statue pulled down. Would hope that the authorities pull it back out quickly and before the University Scuba clubs reconvene and get to work on it.

    Would be wrong for it to be melted down now though, needs to be locked away somewhere for a few months and then stuck in the museum.


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    #75
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I would have preferred it if they'd gone through the route of approaching the local council or whomever has jurisdiction over this but a man like this has no business being idolised like this in the 21st century.


    They did

    There have been attempts to have the statue removed or at the very least amended with a plaque to explain his part in the slave trade and give context to some of the claims of his supposed

    I think the earliest attempt was in 1998

    the plaque attempt was recent: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/row-breaks-out-merchant-venturer-1925896

    As far as I am aware the plaque was never actually added in the end. I currently live in Bristol so might walk over later and see if it is there or not.



    But this is the point a lot of people tend to miss over these actions involving statues.

    There tends to be a long running attempt to have them removed legally or amended to account for the troubled history that is brushed aside.

    So it's honestly not surprising that if you are protesting a similar topic and the statue that you have tried to peacefully remove or amend pops up enroute that something is likely to happen.

    Frankly I think the attitude of the reporter from that Nelson's column clip is the right one, its been done move on. There was an opportunity to find a peaceful resolution and as far as I can tell it was ignored.


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    #76
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Where would you stop in Britain? Churchill may have helped save Europe from Naziism but he was a clear racist in other parts of his political career. And during the war to, to bengal?

    As I said 46,000 people were compensated, and that is probably the entirety of the great and good of British society at the time, beyond that era there were innumerable others. Queen Liz for instance.

    British trading in enslaved Africans became established in the 1500s. In 1562 Captain John Hawkins was the first known Englishman to include enslaved Africans in his cargo. Queen Elizabeth approved of his journey, during which he captured 300 Africans. He then sailed across the North Atlantic and exchanged them for hides, ginger and sugar. He returned to London in 1563. Thirsty for greater profits, he organised another voyage for 1564 to which Queen Elizabeth contributed one vessel.

    http://queryblog.tudorhistory.org/2009/02/question-from-mike-elizabeths-views-on.html


    Off with Liz's head.

    OK. I don't have any problem with that. History is there to be recorded and the knowledge passed on. There's nothing that says you have to keep statues for ever.

    Statues aren't history. They're separate things.


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    #77
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    robinph wrote: »
    Definitely happy to see the statue pulled down. Would hope that the authorities pull it back out quickly and before the University Scuba clubs reconvene and get to work on it.

    Would be wrong for it to be melted down now though, needs to be locked away somewhere for a few months and then stuck in the museum.

    A museum would be fine for it, especially one dealing with the story of the slave trade.


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    #78
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    robinph wrote: »
    Definitely happy to see the statue pulled down. Would hope that the authorities pull it back out quickly and before the University Scuba clubs reconvene and get to work on it.

    Would be wrong for it to be melted down now though, needs to be locked away somewhere for a few months and then stuck in the museum.

    The M2 shed has a section on dealing with remembering history and discussing slave trade.

    I've only been in it once and I found it a bit awkward, I seem to recall it had a line of quotes on it about how to deal with history and some of them were a bit silly, i thought I took a pic of it once, guess not. But I'd say the statue would fit nicely in there.


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    #79
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Strazdas wrote: »
    A museum would be fine for it, especially one dealing with the story of the slave trade.

    Yeah absolutely. The guy has a lot of history to tell. The statues should come down but that doesn't mean the history should be wiped out.


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    #80
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Personally, I think they've done some service. Whether you agree or disagree with the statue being hauled down, they are provoking serious debate - a debate that the racists and the English alt right would rather not happen.

    That or its growing more support for the English alt right as they attacked both Churchill and this one. I already see it being framed as erasing history.

    It also illustrates that there is no real belief in the democratic process so i assume that will be used against them also. Which is a narrative already levied against the left in the UK.

    Be interesting times and we could see things get worse before they get better.


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    #81
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    id say lizzy is ****ting herself...is there a bunker in windsor castle?


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    #82
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah absolutely. The guy has a lot of history to tell. The statues should come down but that doesn't mean the history should be wiped out.

    Though I'd argue him being pulled down is part of the history that makes it valuable historical piece

    I'd personally think it would be more valuable as a museum piece to keep the statue in it's vandlalised state in the museum to highlight the full breath of the history

    Otherwise it's just a statue someone made of him 100 years after he died to add to the collection of many other buildings and streets named after him.

    It being teared down is probably the most important historical aspect of the statue itself.

    There's a painting of him in storage in the music hall. They could dig that out and put it in the M2 and then put the vandalised statue beside it and show the two perspectives of the man.


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    #83
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Calhoun wrote: »
    That or its growing more support for the English alt right as they attacked both Churchill and this one. I already see it being framed as erasing history.

    It also illustrates that there is no real belief in the democratic process so i assume that will be used against them also. Which is a narrative already levied against the left in the UK.

    Be interesting times and we could see things get worse before they get better.

    The alt right have been virtually running the UK since June 2016 with their 'will of the people' mantra.....ditto with their pals in the right wing press.

    It's not a surprise that they're starting to come up against serious resistance and protests now (and not from the expected source....anti-Brexit people).


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    #84
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    I think the most confusing part of this whole affair is Piers Morgan actually being in favour of pulling down the statue.

    That's just weird


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    #85
    robertpatterson
    Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭robertpatterson


    FVP3 wrote: »
    I am sure modern Sinn Fein would be happy to see it go. Some of their younger members might lead the charge.

    Id like to see that (Army) council meeting


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    #86
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Calhoun wrote: »
    That or its growing more support for the English alt right as they attacked both Churchill and this one. I already see it being framed as erasing history.

    It also illustrates that there is no real belief in the democratic process so i assume that will be used against them also. Which is a narrative already levied against the left in the UK.

    Be interesting times and we could see things get worse before they get better.

    Nonsense. Statues aren't history. Loads of things happened and are recorded in history without having a statue erected in their image.

    Statues are not history. History doesn't need a statue to be remembered. They guy has a good Wikipedia page which gives actual information about him and his life and it's free for anyone to read. History is not being erased.


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    #87
    robertpatterson
    Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭robertpatterson


    RasTa wrote: »
    Except housing

    Mary lou will sort that, forever homes for everyone!!


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    #88
    Sawduck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Sawduck


    Have any Churchill or Oliver Cromwell statues been demolished?


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    #89
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    The M2 shed has a section on dealing with remembering history and discussing slave trade.

    I've only been in it once and I found it a bit awkward, I seem to recall it had a line of quotes on it about how to deal with history and some of them were a bit silly, i thought I took a pic of it once, guess not. But I'd say the statue would fit nicely in there.
    My last visit involved chasing around looking for any Wallace and Gromitt stuff and random buttons to press to make lights turn on so I didn't get to take much of it in.


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    #90
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Sawduck wrote: »
    Have any Churchill or Oliver Cromwell statues been demolished?

    Unlikely to find any Cromwell statues being toppled. More entertaining to name the street of the Irish Passport office in London after Cromwell.


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    #91
    thecretinhop
    Registered Users Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    disgraceful pathetic yobs.
    Your not heros or revolutionarys.
    rereading schindlers list.
    the left are the new brownshirts. Pulling down statues maybe onto burning books next. then maybe ban and beat up anyone who disagrees with you... oh wait..


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