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UN Migration Pact Ireland's Position?

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    #212
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Redneck Culchie wrote: »
    Most sensible countries opted out. You should probably buy the Guardian paper instead of viewing it online, it's going bankrupt because nobody buys it.

    164 signed it thankfully instead of using migration as a nasty hate filled political ball to play with.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #213
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,979 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    164 signed it thankfully instead of using migration as a nasty hate filled political ball to play with.

    Just out of curiosity how many of the 164 countries governments held a vote or even asked their citizens if they were in agreement with signing this.


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    #214
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    malinheader wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity how many of the 164 countries governments held a vote or even asked their citizens if they were in agreement with signing this.

    I have no idea. But this is how representative democracy works. Politicians get elected. They make decisions.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #215
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,979 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I have no idea. But this is how representative democracy works. Politicians get elected. They make decisions.

    Granted. But I think something as big and issue as migration should be put to the people. A lot more important I think than removing that silly blasphemy law which was put to the people.


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    #216
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    malinheader wrote: »
    Granted. But I think something as big and issue as migration should be put to the people. A lot more important I think than removing that silly blasphemy law which was put to the people.

    Ireland has never held a non-constitutional referendum.


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    #217
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,979 ✭✭✭malinheader


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    Ireland has never held a non-constitutional referendum.

    Was the Lisbon treaty classed as a constitutional referendum.


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    #218
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    malinheader wrote: »
    Was the Lisbon treaty classed as a constitutional referendum.
    Yes. The 28th Amendment to the Constitution.


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    #219
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Nermal wrote: »
    The issue is that nobody voted for it.


    Voted for ethnic minorities?


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    sure lets go boot all the black people out of Johannesburg again , theres no issue with them becoming a minority


    What are you talking about?


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    #220
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,897 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    malinheader wrote: »
    Granted. But I think something as big and issue as migration should be put to the people. A lot more important I think than removing that silly blasphemy law which was put to the people.

    I dont get your point. Why would we need a referenfum - there is no constitutional amendment. Why is migration a specisl issue? Do you want to change our systrm of representative democracy?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #221
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I see the media blackout has ended by RTE who are all positive towards it this morning.


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    #222
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,979 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I dont get your point. Why would we need a referenfum - there is no constitutional amendment. Why is migration a specisl issue? Do you want to change our systrm of representative democracy?

    No the system is normal enough.Most of the time. Looking at other countries who have welcomed large numbers of migrants I think it's shown to be not working to be honest and I for one would of voted against. And if being concerned about an issue like this means your a racist to some people so be it.


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    #223
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    sheesh wrote: »
    Does anyone think that maybe the poles and Hungarians might be entitled not to sign it?

    I mean it is their border. and if they want to control who comes and goes through it let them. If they can take the hit in the loss of foreign investment then let them off.

    Of course they are entitled not to sign it but this logic doesn't make any sense. Countries are as able to control who comes and goes through their border just as much before as after they sign it.


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    #224
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Of course they are entitled not to sign it but this logic doesn't make any sense. Countries are as able to control who comes and goes through their border just as much before as after they sign it.

    So what your saying its a pointless pact?


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    #225
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    So what your saying its a pointless pact?
    No, it's an agreement to work together to better handle migration issues. Though I'm not opposed to migration myself, it's not hard to make the argument that there's plenty in there for those who do oppose migration or want it to be limited to skilled workers. For example, in the core objectives:
    (1) Collect and utilize accurate and disaggregated data as a basis for evidence-based policies
    (3) Provide accurate and timely information at all stages of migration
    Seems reasonable. In fact if there's negatives to migration, it'll come out in the data gathered and there's be evidence for changing policies.
    (2) Minimize the adverse drivers and structural factors that compel people to leave their country of origin
    So, reduce the incentive to migrate so that there's less migration.
    (4) Ensure that all migrants have proof of legal identity and adequate documentation
    Again, no problems with this, reduces the amount of criminals attempting to migrate.
    (9) Strengthen the transnational response to smuggling of migrants
    (10) Prevent, combat and eradicate trafficking in persons in the context of international migration
    Tackling smuggling/trafficking should reduce illegal immigration.
    (11) Manage borders in an integrated, secure and coordinated manner
    (12) Strengthen certainty and predictability in migration procedures for appropriate screening, assessment and referral
    (13) Use migration detention only as a measure of last resort and work towards alternatives
    (21) Cooperate in facilitating safe and dignified return and readmission, as well as sustainable reintegration
    So, 'prevention' of illegal migration via strong borders and good screening is preferable over the 'cure' of detention and deportation. Seems fine.
    (16) Empower migrants and societies to realize full inclusion and social cohesion
    (17) Eliminate all forms of discrimination and promote evidence-based public discourse to shape perceptions of migration
    (18) Invest in skills development and facilitate mutual recognition of skills, qualifications and competences
    (19) Create conditions for migrants and diasporas to fully contribute to sustainable development in all countries
    So, bearing in mind the pact covers all migration, which would include say, skilled migration like a software engineer from Ireland heading off to work in the US, these objectives basically just say that anyone a country does allow in should fit in and have their skills recognised.


    As for the national sovereignty argument, it explicitly says it's upheld:
    his Global Compact presents a non-legally binding, cooperative framework that builds on the commitments agreed upon by Member States in the New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants. It fosters international cooperation among all relevant actors on migration, acknowledging that no State can address migration alone, and upholds the sovereignty of States and their obligations under international law.
    It's fairly tame overall, it's basically just stating that 'we'll work together to sort this shit out'.


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    #226
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    So what your saying its a pointless pact?

    It is a statement of intent to work together towards certain goals. It is far more diplomatically relevant than legally.


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    #227
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    As above its against deportation and detention of migrants, and that part about assisting in trying to appease reasons people would migrate seems to be a push for more foreign aid. Then theres the part about eliminating native populations ability to disagree with migration.

    I think poland has the right model for european migration , we as a nation with none of the 'well we colonised them in the past' guilt should be following the path of a nation that has also been invaded by others too many times and stick rigid against this.


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    #228
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,979 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    As above its against deportation and detention of migrants, and that part about assisting in trying to appease reasons people would migrate seems to be a push for more foreign aid. Then theres the part about eliminating native populations ability to disagree with migration.

    I think poland has the right model for european migration , we as a nation with none of the 'well we colonised them in the past' guilt should be following the path of a nation that has also been invaded by others too many times and stick rigid against this.

    Totally agree. But is going to be very difficult to oppose or even raise concerns when decisions are made by a small few who seem to think they know what the people in their own country want or their views are on this.


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    #229
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    malinheader wrote: »
    Totally agree. But is going to be very difficult to oppose or even raise concerns when decisions are made by a small few who seem to think they know what the people in their own country want or their views are on this.

    Varadkar would sign this over no problem , sure he thinks all migrants are doctors and contribute positively. Ireland has a lot more to lose than gain from any further non european migration, we need more people with a backbone to say that in the dail


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    #230
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Redneck Culchie wrote: »
    Most sensible countries opted out. You should probably buy the Guardian paper instead of viewing it online, it's going bankrupt because nobody buys it.
    Where do you buy the Guardian in Ireland?


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    #231
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    malinheader wrote: »
    Granted. But I think something as big and issue as migration should be put to the people. A lot more important I think than removing that silly blasphemy law which was put to the people.
    Great. Another person weighing in with zero knowledge of the weight of UN pacts. Sigh.
    malinheader wrote: »
    Was the Lisbon treaty classed as a constitutional referendum.

    LOL


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    #232
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    As above its against deportation and detention of migrants, and that part about assisting in trying to appease reasons people would migrate seems to be a push for more foreign aid. Then theres the part about eliminating native populations ability to disagree with migration.

    I think poland has the right model for european migration , we as a nation with none of the 'well we colonised them in the past' guilt should be following the path of a nation that has also been invaded by others too many times and stick rigid against this.
    malinheader wrote: »
    Totally agree. But is going to be very difficult to oppose or even raise concerns when decisions are made by a small few who seem to think they know what the people in their own country want or their views are on this.

    Looking forward to your sources from the pact which support this.


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    #233
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,473 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Conspiracy nonsense deleted. No more please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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