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02-04-2020, 11:02   #61
Gerry T
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
I gotta say that prioritising "trying to stop a global recession" is precisely assigning a paramount value to wealth.
In 2009 it was estimated there were approx 9,000 additional deaths in suicide due to the recession. That doesn't include the deaths in poor areas that rely on charity donations, something that will be hit with a recession. It's bad enough people are dying from c19, we need to try control that, we also need to try control economies, its not a one or the other choice, we need to do both.

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Also - more an economic point than a theological one - a sell-off of property, shares and business interests is pretty much the opposite of what you do if you're trying to stop a recession.
But the church wouldn't be selling to keep the money, they would be selling to pump the money back into economies, billion's of it. A give away. That's not the same as selling and keeping the money locked away. What's needed to stop or slow this recession is for more money to be spent. There's plenty of very wealthy people that would buy priceless art where that money is now locked away. Their could be conditions set in the sale to protect any artistic value.
From a theological perspective, I thought judgement day was when you die, free choice up until then. Not exactly free choice if your struck down quickly with no future chance to repent. I don't subscribe to a god that punishes, that's just man's narrative, people shouldn't be linking the dot's to make c19 a warning from god, it doesn't help.
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02-04-2020, 12:40   #62
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
I gotta say that prioritising "trying to stop a global recession" is precisely assigning a paramount value to wealth.

Also - more an economic point than a theological one - a sell-off of property, shares and business interests is pretty much the opposite of what you do if you're trying to stop a recession.
I'm guessing the idea is for a more equitable distribution of wealth which in turn enables a more robust and healthy society. While I'm no big fan of the church, I can think of many far denser concentrations of wealth than the church that I'd be aiming to disperse first were I to possess omnipotence. Looking at the numbers of publicly accessible hospital beds, doctors and nurses per head of population in different countries you might think it correlates with national wealth but this clearly isn't the case. In my opinion this is a clear indicator of some deeply inequitable societies which need to change if to be able deal with these types of stresses.
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02-04-2020, 16:29   #63
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In 2009 it was estimated there were approx 9,000 additional deaths in suicide due to the recession. That doesn't include the deaths in poor areas that rely on charity donations, something that will be hit with a recession. It's bad enough people are dying from c19, we need to try control that, we also need to try control economies, its not a one or the other choice, we need to do both.
Deaths due to a global recession are certainly a factor, perhaps some can be attributed to lifestlye factors: smoking, drinking, junk food an so on.

Another consideration in the bigger picture of things when comparing numbers is this:
Global deaths (so far) in 2020 due to COVID19: 50,000 circa.
Global abortions (so far) in 2020: 10,000,000 circa. With a steady annual figure of between 42-56million, roughly 125,000 per day.

Some medically neccessary yes, or very complex reasons, but also many as a result of career aspirations and/or lifestyle factors, and also as a result of acts void of any personal responsibility.
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02-04-2020, 16:57   #64
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Deaths due to a global recession are certainly a factor, perhaps some can be attributed to lifestlye factors: smoking, drinking, junk food an so on.

Another consideration in the bigger picture of things when comparing numbers is this:
Global deaths (so far) in 2020 due to COVID19: 50,000 circa.
Global abortions (so far) in 2020: 10,000,000 circa. With a steady annual figure of between 42-56million, roughly 125,000 per day.

Some medically neccessary yes, or very complex reasons, but also many as a result of career aspirations and/or lifestyle factors, and also as a result of acts void of any personal responsibility.
I think your wildly off topic here and introduction of number of abortions carried out per year has no bearing whatsoever on discussion taking place. If you wanted to discuss the relative damage done by the Corona virus compared to that done by economic reasons, you might do better to have a look at the effects of poverty; https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...global-poverty. For example, assuming your interest in abortion stems from a genuine concern for the welfare of babies, it is worth noting that 'preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment'. That said, I strongly doubt that many who throw abortion into discussions such as this care about anything much beyond their own right-wing agenda.
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02-04-2020, 21:15   #65
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I think your wildly off topic here and introduction of number of abortions carried out per year has no bearing whatsoever on discussion taking place. If you wanted to discuss the relative damage done by the Corona virus compared to that done by economic reasons, you might do better to have a look at the effects of poverty; https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts...global-poverty. For example, assuming your interest in abortion stems from a genuine concern for the welfare of babies, it is worth noting that 'preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment'. That said, I strongly doubt that many who throw abortion into discussions such as this care about anything much beyond their own right-wing agenda.
Interesting you should jump to assuming simple comparisions, are due some wild far off agenda, actually that says more about you in terms of paranoia. Perhaps you have some far and hard left wing agenda, you wish to share?

There is no harm in comparing the 10million babies dead already this year, in comparison to COVID19, both are somewhat preventable (to a percent), due to behavioural choices.
By all means compare other things too, wars, pollution, smoking, and so on.

Rightly so, also to address economics.

And assuming your interest in this aspect is in any way genuine, or you have any real actual interest, you could start with highlighting the fact that 1% of the population control 40-50% of global private wealth. Also tax loopholes, IHT avoidance, double dutch fiscal sweet deal sandwiches and so on are all the rage.

Extreme poverty levels are actually falling, take a look at India. But with little thanks to the 1%, who continue to increase the net wealth divide.
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02-04-2020, 22:31   #66
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Interesting you should jump to assuming simple comparisions, are due some wild far off agenda, actually that says more about you in terms of paranoia. Perhaps you have some far and hard left wing agenda, you wish to share?

There is no harm in comparing the 10million babies dead already this year, in comparison to COVID19, both are somewhat preventable (to a percent), due to behavioural choices.
By all means compare other things too, wars, pollution, smoking, and so on.

Rightly so, also to address economics.

And assuming your interest in this aspect is in any way genuine, or you have any real actual interest, you could start with highlighting the fact that 1% of the population control 40-50% of global private wealth. Also tax loopholes, IHT avoidance, double dutch fiscal sweet deal sandwiches and so on are all the rage.

Extreme poverty levels are actually falling, take a look at India. But with little thanks to the 1%, who continue to increase the net wealth divide.
Would you stop with the nonsense. C19 or Poverty is not a choice, abortion is. Why are you talking about wealthy people, what have they to do with C19 ?

The general discussion is C19 and religion, what should the Church do in response.
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02-04-2020, 22:54   #67
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In 2009 it was estimated there were approx 9,000 additional deaths in suicide due to the recession. That doesn't include the deaths in poor areas that rely on charity donations, something that will be hit with a recession. It's bad enough people are dying from c19, we need to try control that, we also need to try control economies, its not a one or the other choice, we need to do both.
.
The general discussion is C19 and religion, what should the Church do in response. Not about preventing suicide and stopping recessions (which would be govermental and public policy led factors anyway) i.e. nonsense.

Now, in terms of what the Church(es) can do.
Well, not a lot actually.

For what may be the 1st time in known or recorded history pretty much every church (or other meeting place, of any other religion) has a closed-door policy in place.

Normal procedures and practices of many religions are simply on hold, any thing that creates a crowd of 3 or more, isn't feasable currently, even on a practical logisitcal or perhaps legal basis.

The real question is not what can the Church(es) do.
But what do you expect them (which church) to do under the circumstances, and this in regards to what specifically, practice wise.
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03-04-2020, 00:50   #68
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I expect the Church to pray. Priests to offer mass and bring the sacraments to the dying. To use social media to bring as much comfort as possible.

This is what the Church is doing.

They are doing it well.

The church were well ahead of the curve in closing down, particularly in the North.
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03-04-2020, 10:19   #69
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Originally Posted by Accumulator
The general discussion is C19 and religion, what should the Church do in response. Not about preventing suicide and stopping recessions (which would be govermental and public policy led factors anyway) i.e. nonsense.
I said the church (RCC) could sell off priceless art/buildings and give the money away. Give to people in need, the fact that amount of money (billions) would be put into circulation would also help curtail a recession and might lead as an example to very wealthy individuals or other religions to follow suit. It could start with the 1.5b of italian stocks. It doesnt pay any tax on its income, maybe it could start with that.
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03-04-2020, 19:46   #70
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I said the church (RCC) could sell off priceless art/buildings and give the money away. Give to people in need, the fact that amount of money (billions) would be put into circulation would also help curtail a recession and might lead as an example to very wealthy individuals or other religions to follow suit. It could start with the 1.5b of italian stocks. It doesnt pay any tax on its income, maybe it could start with that.
What you describe sounds exactly like wealth distribution.

Yes everyone, and every organisation, and commercial coroporation, and every single person classified as super rich should attempt this.

But sure I have already mentioned this not long ago. But it was quickly disapproved of.
Seems only holy money directly from Rome is good enough to fix all of the world's ills.
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03-04-2020, 21:17   #71
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What you describe sounds exactly like wealth distribution.

Yes everyone, and every organisation, and commercial coroporation, and every single person classified as super rich should attempt this.

But sure I have already mentioned this not long ago. But it was quickly disapproved of.
Seems only holy money directly from Rome is good enough to fix all of the world's ills.
Exactly, the church's money is first and central. As an organisation built on not gaining wealth but spreading the word of god and non profiteering they should dispense of the billions they accumulated, what are they doing with all that wealth anyway. No one else has the obligation to do anything of the sort, why would they, its their money ?
Bill Gates, Alibaba founder Jack Ma, former hedge fund manager George Soros, and Li Ka-Shing have collectively pledged over $100 billion to corona virus so it's not like the rich are doing nothing. Whats the Church doing, in real terms, not prayers and best wishes.
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03-04-2020, 21:42   #72
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Exactly,
So I was right as before: wealth distribution is actually the soloution.
No need to aplogise.

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the church's money is first and central.
Whoa there, holy money is better than all the other money in the world?

This is a new theory.
Is it blessed and with hidden powers of wealth creations, are the coins and notes supernatural, by their own esteem, and like a magic money tree that can be shaken?

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As an organisation built on not gaining wealth but spreading the word of god and non profiteering they should dispense of the billions they accumulated, what are they doing with all that wealth anyway. No one else has the obligation to do anything of the sort, why would they, its their money ?
So you are correct, they can't create wealth by themselves, (unlike Alibaba or those other Hedge Fund gamblers). They have to rely upon donations to keep the lights on, repair buildings, as face the growing attacks from Asia and Africa, and so on.

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Bill Gates, Alibaba founder Jack Ma, former hedge fund manager George Soros, and Li Ka-Shing have collectively pledged over $100 billion to corona virus so it's not like the rich are doing nothing.
100bn does sound like a 'pulled from the sky figure'.

This typical 2,000 or so small group of global billionaires are likely worth as much as the RCC or any other church, including all of its billion or so members, who are also 'of the church' and might want somewhere to sit (not in the dark), whenever the doors reopen.

Billy Gates is also upto his eyes in investments on the back of COVID, but this is with a (long term) view to profit from these type of situations. And as for Soros, well just ask the typical Joe on the street their views on this creature, he is widely hated in his native Hungary, a shady charachter to hold to any light.

Actually surprised you didn't include billionaire 'Greene' the topshop sloth is only after asking the uk taxpayers to pay 80% wages for his employees, of the company he does not pay uk dividen tax on (Monaco). This as he ponders over which of 3 yachts sail about in the Med and puts another freeze on the Arcadia pension scheme.
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03-04-2020, 22:15   #73
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So I was right as before: wealth distribution is actually the soloution.
No need to aplogise.


Whoa there, holy money is better than all the other money in the world?

This is a new theory.
Is it blessed and with hidden powers of wealth creations, are the coins and notes supernatural, by their own esteem, and like a magic money tree that can be shaken?


So you are correct, they can't create wealth by themselves, (unlike Alibaba or those other Hedge Fund gamblers). They have to rely upon donations to keep the lights on, repair buildings, as face the growing attacks from Asia and Africa, and so on.


100bn does sound like a 'pulled from the sky figure'.

This typical 2,000 or so small group of global billionaires are likely worth as much as the RCC or any other church, including all of its billion or so members, who are also 'of the church' and might want somewhere to sit (not in the dark), whenever the doors reopen.

Billy Gates is also upto his eyes in investments on the back of COVID, but this is with a (long term) view to profit from these type of situations. And as for Soros, well just ask the typical Joe on the street their views on this creature, he is widely hated in his native Hungary, a shady charachter to hold to any light.

Actually surprised you didn't include billionaire 'Greene' the topshop sloth is only after asking the uk taxpayers to pay 80% wages for his employees, of the company he does not pay uk dividen tax on (Monaco). This as he ponders over which of 3 yachts sail about in the Med and puts another freeze on the Arcadia pension scheme.
There's a difference between an individual and the church, the church is not about collecting wealth, it's supposed to be about supporting people, forgiveness, compassion, . Your confusing two separate issues, one the wealth individuals have and how you would like them to share that and the other is the question at hand, what should the church do re c19.

As for wealthy individuals they have zero responsibility to do anymore than you or I do. You come across as being bitter that these people don't do more, when the fact is they are doing more than you or I could in a dozen life times.

But the Church has for a very weird reason accumulated billions in property, art and business investments. The World now faces a serious issue and the Church because of what it stands for / preaches, has an obligation to do more that pray. It's time to sell off it's gathered wealth. In fact if the RCC did this it would gather more followers, but we both know it will never dowhat I suggest. I don't think Jesus would like what the church has become, do you ?
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03-04-2020, 22:47   #74
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Originally Posted by Gerry T View Post
I said the church (RCC) could sell off priceless art/buildings and give the money away. Give to people in need, the fact that amount of money (billions) would be put into circulation would also help curtail a recession and might lead as an example to very wealthy individuals or other religions to follow suit. It could start with the 1.5b of italian stocks. It doesnt pay any tax on its income, maybe it could start with that.
That'ts not a well thought out solution.
Who do you think would buy the art and buildings foor example. Most of them would be unsellale due to the high price and number or for the practicallity of it. Who do you think for example would buy St. Peter's Basilika and do what with it? Even if there were nough people to be able to buy these pieces of art, the flooding of the market would imediately collapse the market, making them mostly worthless.
If they were all sold, it would only last for a little while until all is spend and then the church would not have a source of income.
So it's better, that they keep teham all, generating income for the church that can then be used to spend on charity.
And that's before ypu even think about the fact that these pieces of art should be accessible by the public, rather than being kept behind closed doors of a rich colector.
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03-04-2020, 23:00   #75
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There's a difference between an individual and the church, the church is not about collecting wealth, it's supposed to be about supporting people, forgiveness, compassion, .
Which it largely does.

Why have you left out commercial corporations, and all other groups do they not have money also? Don't they avoid taxes, seek only to profit, to fiscally gain while the sell their products and services.

Plenty of people, groups, organistations and indeed hugh corporates all have money, what you claimed is only the Church (presume you also mean the RCC?) has to be the 1st of all thse, to give away all it's money.
Rather odd.
Sounds like you have some beef with them, a debt owed to you?

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Your confusing two separate issues, one the wealth individuals have and how you would like them to share that and the other is the question at hand, what should the church do re c19.
Your distorting, AND confusing the issue.
Your saying either individuals should give money, or it should (only) be the church that does it, not any other entity, or collective entity.

You could say (any) church, or for that matter any religion of any sort, offers the single best emotional soloution to COVID19.
The single largest emotive risk due to the pandemic is that of 'fear'. An Italian AI search bot today backs this theory.

The most religious folks in the world, offer and have 'no fear' whatsoever of death.
Sure it's a fairly minor or even significant inconvience. You could even say the have 'total dominion' over the very concept of an earthly death.

Elsewhere powerful chaps such as HH or Saddam went out in a dark shaking sweat of fear, even without any illness to speak of.

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As for wealthy individuals they have zero responsibility to do anymore than you or I do.
Your bitter selfish hedonistic view is interesting one, and not one that cannot agree with.

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You come across as being bitter that these people don't do more, when the fact is they are doing more than you or I could in a dozen life times.
You think the 1% that own 40% of global net worth, shoudn't do more.
This is again interesting, maybe you were an only child, or came from poor beginings, where the concept of sharing didn't exist.

Gates himself later said he wished (with regret) that he didn't may more tax, and he paid the minimium he could over the majority of his career, but was able and should have done more.
Even today he has vested interests in investements in a twisted mix of tracking technology meets rockerfella financed vaccines, under the guise of for the greater good. This is somewhat debatable in regards to the longer term.

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But the Church has for a very weird reason accumulated billions in property, art and business investments....
Yada yada, the largest church (of 1bn people) again has less collective wealth (including it's members) than approx the top 10,000 individuals on the planet. Maybe even less that the top 10 companies of the world, also certainly not of 1bn members.

Also is money the only soloution to all and every woe?

Last edited by Accumulator; 03-04-2020 at 23:03.
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