What should be the Churches response to Covid19 See Mod Warning in post 1

ChrisJ84

Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »

So none of the Churches are hearing from God on the subject and it's all been reduced to nice sermons and social distancing and social responsibility(which are good things) but it's nothing different to what the unbelievers are doing so doesn't differentiate the Redeemed Ones from anyone else.

I'm not expecting to hear from God specifically in relation to covid-19 - God speaks to us through scripture as he has always done and our response should be the same as in the face of any other tragic event or natural disaster. God is still on the throne, and our duty is to love him and our neighbour, while pointing them to the salvation that is only to be found in Jesus Christ.

None of that is changed by the fact that we need to temporarily curtail our public meetings. Social distancing and the other practical steps people have been referencing on here are the appropriate responses to this specific set of circumstances, and are an important means of loving our neighbour.

Saying that this pandemic is God's judgement on sin or rebellion is completely unverifiable, and entirely unhelpful in my view. Disease exists because we live in a fallen world, and we shouldn't presume to speak for God in this.

smacl

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

If this is god’s judgement then it seems awful cuńtish to target the elderly and infirm.

Carded for bad language, please see point 10 of the charter. Thanks for your attention

Thinkingaboutit

The church I go to has every second row roped off, with narrower areas like the choir mostly roped off, and instead of one High Mass, there's three Low Masses limited to 100 people at a time, according to surname. The nearest parish church, offering only the New Order of Mass, prefers people to follow via webcam, but it's a low quality camera. I suppose, prudence should guide all.

Also the Mass in Times of Pestilence:

Mass in Times of Pestilence, St Andrew's Daily Missal, St Andé-near-Bruges, 1940

Mass in Times of Pestilence, Missale Romanum, Regensberg, 1923

The St Lawrence Press blog, publishers of an excellent ordo which uses the Roman Missal of 1939 for Masses in 2020, has some comments on the use extra propers in this COV19 era.

The idea of Divine punishment, whether for Francis breaking the First Commandment with his Pachamama worship, or gay marriage or something, is odd. It raged first in China, then Iran, and while Christianity waxes in both places while atheism and Islam wane, and only later hitting Italian shores. This world is complex and ascribing events to Divine punishment, is unwise.

Nick Park

I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.

smacl

Nick Park wrote: »

I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.

I read an article earlier today that while Europeans are panic buying toilet paper and pasta there has been a run on guns and knives in the States. I think actively dispelling fear and panic in these times, and striving to help those feeling this outbreak most acutely, is something that is important for all of us at this time, regardless of creed. Fair play to those, such as yourself, who have the ear of more people than most in taking this very clear and vocal stance.

uck51js9zml2yt

Nick Park wrote: »

I saw a post on Facebook where some idiot pastor in the United States was saying that God told him the coronavirus was a demonic plot to kill older, more conservative, people in the United States so as to destroy the USA through socialism.

There really are several levels of lunacy required to reach such a conclusion, just as there are similar levels of lunacy required to see the whole thing as judgement against particular sins or groups of people.

As a pastor myself, I do think God is speaking very clearly to the churches at the moment. He's saying, "Don't be jerks. Don't act selfishly. Don't try and make this all about you and your pet peeves, your theological hang-ups, and your annoyance at those who don't share your moral stances. Be a voice of reason, love and grace. People are afraid right now, so get over yourself and speak hope and encouragement to others. Seek ways of serving and blessing people who are hurting. Be a part of the solution to this crisis rather than making it worse."

That's what a lot of us as Christians are hearing from God right now.

A terrible indictment on the churches if that's what God's having to tell you.

What about a message of God being in control.Being above all and in all and that this is an opportunity to understand that we don't control our destiny and need to turn back to Him having rejected Him.

Whether I live or die I live unto Him. If He calls me home there's no fear. I move from one phase of eternity to another.
People are afraid of dying and of fear itself. Where's the message for them that they need get right with God.

If God can look after a sparrow He can look after the rest of His creation.

Having to be told to show love and grace when this is what the Church has been told to be since it's inception is a serious matter. If that's what God's telling the Churches, they need to wake up.

He's telling other Churches different things.Who are you to dismiss what other Churches are hearing from God or to say it's not God speaking.

Revelation says that we need to hear what God is saying to the Churches (plural) He said different things to the 7 Churches.
It's an awful arrogance Nick to be saying you have a monopoly on what God's saying and that's the only message.

Lucy8080

[QUOTE=Reid Repulsive Gristle;1128426)
It's not a theological debate.

Read this gently,please.

I've quoted a line from your post. Above that line in your post you have quoted the bible to support your reasoning.

Is this not a theological position(on your part) , as any person would reasonably define it?

Leroy42

Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?

uck51js9zml2yt

Leroy42 wrote: »

Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?

Have a read of Luke 13 for your answer Leroy.
We're those on whom the tower fell more sinful than those who escaped? Jesus answer is telling.

Nick Park

Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »

A terrible indictment on the churches if that's what God's having to tell you.

Yes, it is an indictment on some churches, and on some individual Christians - and an indictment that is, in some cases, richly deserved.

There are a lot of Christians out there who are truly wonderful people, and who manifest the grace and truth of Jesus. And there are some, thankfully a minority, who seem to delight in nastiness and judgmentalism. Sometimes their voices seem to be the loudest. And that's why we need a more Christlike Christianity to make itself heard.

He's telling other Churches different things.Who are you to dismiss what other Churches are hearing from God or to say it's not God speaking.

Revelation says that we need to hear what God is saying to the Churches (plural) He said different things to the 7 Churches.
It's an awful arrogance Nick to be saying you have a monopoly on what God's saying and that's the only message.

If it's theologically illiterate lunacy, then I think it is incumbent on any thinking Christian to say it's not God.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to accept that God may be saying different things to different churches. I never said otherwise.

Indeed, you seem to be the one who's getting bent out of shape because you don't like my answer to your original post. You asked what God is saying to the churches, and then if I don't give the answer you want, you start arguing with me.

I've certainly never stated, or implied, that I, or anyone else, has a monopoly on what God is saying and that's the only message. That would certainly be arrogance. Perhaps all of us need to stop and ask ourselves if we are coming across as intolerant and arrogant?

God bless you.

hinault

Leroy42 wrote: »

Maybe if different churches are hearing different messages, isn't the more likely explanation that none of them are actually hearing the message from God?

And why would god be talking directly to some people and not others? If the virus really is a death sentence by god and only those that heed his way will be saved, then why not simply announce it?

And you have still not been able to answer if you believe that anyone who dies from it can therefore be regarded as a sinner and now a true believer. And if a vaccine is achieved, if those those created it are working against the will of God?

Intriguing.

I'd almost be tempted to read the OP.

Is he really saying that Covid19 is a punishment from God?

uck51js9zml2yt

Nick Park wrote: »

Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to accept that God may be saying different things to different churches. I never said otherwise.
.

You were the one who was dismissing the apocalyptic stuff.


I quiet readily accepted that there could be different messages.

It seems people are more fearful of that which can kill the body rather than Him who can kill the soul.

AllForIt

Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »

It surprised me that the Christians have had nothing to say about Covid 19.

What's going on?

I propose an answer to that. Either the virus was created by God or it evolved naturally. Either way I don't think it's an discussion a theist want's to get involved in.

4068ac1elhodqr

While only have very limited, but very simple practical knowledge, of 'ecumenical matters'.
My guess-timate for advice would be: "nothing specific" - I.e. nothing outside of what they should be doing already.

Is it fair to say the holy folks, have actually little to fear anyway?
That is: they have 'full dominion' over the concept of any physical earthly death.

Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
- that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.

The Wu-flu is simply one small peice of a large jigsaw in a sequence of already expected events.

re:Luke (21:11): “There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences {plage(s)} in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.”

Now as far as 'signs from heaven' bit, another guess is that relates to the topic of Wormwood, and the concept of quater of earth destruction (fires from the sky).
One (very wild, to say the least) and specific theory put forward by some folks is for: '#99942 Apophis' (with touchdown on Mex-US border), on Friday, April 13, 2029.
It will be viewable with the naked eye as a 'sign' from 2026 onwards before arrival.

Heard the mighty Donald's brand new 'space force' (each member will swear allegiance upon a new version of the KJBible, and will actually attempt to prevent it)*

Before that major event, are ever-present risks "by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth"
I.e. WW3 (the great Bear), fall of 'New'Babylon, RFIDs(control), self-destruction of the church (near complete), and so on...

*There is probably a good movie script in some of that, or a good long read book in the wider conceptual aspects.

smacl

Ayleen Plain Storehouse wrote: »

Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
- that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.

Seems to have worked well for them, China would appear to be over the worst of this pandemic with no new domestic cases; https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0319/1124040-chinese-virus-milestone/

Self isolation and turning away from the physical world is nothing new to most religions, including Christianity which has a long tradition of asceticism.

Peregrinus

Ayleen Plain Storehouse wrote: »

Maybe concern should instead be felt for residents in modern athiest China's Wuhan,
- that were door-welded shut into their apartment blocks with no hope, or concept outside of the physical.

What smacl said. Welding can do a lot of things, but one thing it cannot do is act as a barrier to hope of or faith in the metaphysical.

from_atozinc

Can anyone tell me in PLAIN ENGLISH what this means:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-decrees-plenary-indulgence-for-all-catholics-dealing-with-coronavirus-1.4209681?mode=amp

Is it more a less saying that the church forgives people for not going to a physical church to pray - whilst we are in this corona crisis.

Peregrinus

from_atozinc wrote: »

Can anyone tell me in PLAIN ENGLISH what this means:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/vatican-decrees-plenary-indulgence-for-all-catholics-dealing-with-coronavirus-1.4209681?mode=amp

Is it more a less saying that the church forgives people for not going to a physical church to pray - whilst we are in this corona crisis.

No.

First off, it has nothing to do with going to church or not going to church. There is no mention of this in the article. I don't know where you are getting this from.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with forgiveness.

The Catholic tradition distinguishes between forgiveness of sins, which follows from repentance, and punishment for sin, which is the natural outcome of sin and is not "magicked away" by forgiveness.

Suppose I stab you and subsequently repent, my sin may be forgiven but the harm done by the stabbing - your injury, pain and suffering; my shame, remorse, regret and prison sentence - still persists.

Spiritually, so far as the Catholic tradition is concerned, something similar holds good. Our repentance, however sincere, is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Our sins are forgiven, but we still need to accept and work through the consequences of our sin; the harm we have done to ourselves and others. That's a key aspect of repentance, in fact. And that can be painful.

The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.

from_atozinc

Peregrinus wrote: »

No.

First off, it has nothing to do with going to church or not going to church. There is no mention of this in the article. I don't know where you are getting this from.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with forgiveness.

The Catholic tradition distinguishes between forgiveness of sins, which follows from repentance, and punishment for sin, which is the natural outcome of sin and is not "magicked away" by forgiveness.

Suppose I stab you and subsequently repent, my sin may be forgiven but the harm done by the stabbing - your injury, pain and suffering; my shame, remorse, regret and prison sentence - still persists.

Spiritually, so far as the Catholic tradition is concerned, something similar holds good. Our repentance, however sincere, is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Our sins are forgiven, but we still need to accept and work through the consequences of our sin; the harm we have done to ourselves and others. That's a key aspect of repentance, in fact. And that can be painful.

The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.

ye wha?

Hamsterchops

Peregrinus wrote: »

The attaching of an indulgence to a particular act - in this case, dealing with CV19 infection, either as a patient or as a carer - draws attention to the role that the act can play in spiritual growth and self-repair, if undertaken in the right spirit. They are not a subsitute for repentance, and they do not confer any kind of forgiveness.

An indulgence?
Please explain.

smacl

Hamsterchops wrote: »

An indulgence?
Please explain.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence Not nearly as much fun as it sounds

Manach

"An Italian priest who gave a respirator to a younger coronavirus patient he did not know has died of the disease. Father Giuseppe Berardelli, 72, died in hospital in Lovere, Bergamo - one of the worst-hit cities in Italy."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52015969

John 15:13

Manach

Interesting BBC article on changes to burial customs/religious observances during this period. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-52106863

smacl

Manach wrote: »

Interesting BBC article on changes to burial customs/religious observances during this period. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-52106863

Must be incredibly difficult for those grieving. Personally I find a wake of great benefit in starting to come to terms with the loss of a loved one and not something easily replaced or postponed.

looksee

Reid Repulsive Gristle wrote: »

It surprised me that the Christians have had nothing to say about Covid 19.

What's going on?

I've been reading, praying, meeting with the Saints and we've been seeking the mind of God in this matter.

We met together this morning, albeit in reduced numbers. We kept the kids at home and as a result some of the adults.
We streamed the meeting to include those who are part of us worldwide in what God was saying. We need to be sensible in these things.

It seems Gods been speaking to a number of us individually that this is from His Hand and is His judgement on the nation's.
Those who've dismissed God, saying He doesn't exist or if He does, we'll ignore His statutes anyway.

This is an opportunity for people to repent and turn back to God. Some will, many won't and will pass up this opportunity. We'll probably get a vaccine and claim how wonderful mankind is but God won't be mocked.
This is His kindness and His opportunity for repentance and a turning back to Him.

People are in fear and people are fearing other people's fear (Isaiah 8) but we who know Him need to return to Him, allow God be God in our lives and trust Him. We have a message of hope to a world that has lost control and fearing death.

Psalm 31 refers to us being in a city under siege but yet God extends His loving kindness

He says " O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD"

This thread is not a debate with those who don't believe in God. His existence isn't up for debate. You're response however is. But it's primarily for those who love the Lord and serve Him.
It's not a theological debate.

What's God saying in the the Church of the Redeemed Ones? To those who love Him and His appearing.
If He's not saying anything to you, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your relationship with God.
I speak to my children, God is no different, if we have ears.

I'm encouraged. God's hand is in this. He has allowed it. It wouldn't have happened if He hadn't. He's still sitting on His throne. He's still in control.

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right. Will He find any righteous?

I read this and was saddened. It is not a discussion of love, it is a demonstration of something near Stockhold syndrome. My first thought was not the theological aspects of it (I don't see how it can not be a theological debate) but it read like the defense by an abused person of their abuser.

I'm sorry, yes this is another atheist response, but I think if I had responded to this in my Christian days I would have had the same sense. It is really rather depressing.

Edit: For what its worth, I am not in fact saying that God is an abuser, as an atheist I cannot have that view, but that the OP sees his/her God as an abuser.

Gerry T

If I was god for a day, my message to my flock would be to sell off all my churches wealth from small churches to large. No need for all that money being tied up in priceless pieces, property, shares and business interest. The money could be shared out to countries to try stop a global recession which will bring further pain and suffering to those not at all deserving of such treatment.
That would be a god I'd believe and follow. One that lends a helping hand and puts the needs of others above himself and his wealth.

John Hutton

I thought the Pope's comments were very good tbh

https://pedallingknowledge.blogspot.com/2020/03/full-text-of-pope-franciss-urbi-et-orbi.html?m=1

John Hutton

I thought the Pope's comments were very good tbh

https://pedallingknowledge.blogspot.com/2020/03/full-text-of-pope-franciss-urbi-et-orbi.html?m=1

Peregrinus

Gerry T wrote: »

If I was god for a day, my message to my flock would be to sell off all my churches wealth from small churches to large. No need for all that money being tied up in priceless pieces, property, shares and business interest. The money could be shared out to countries to try stop a global recession which will bring further pain and suffering to those not at all deserving of such treatment.
That would be a god I'd believe and follow. One that lends a helping hand and puts the needs of others above himself and his wealth.

I gotta say that prioritising "trying to stop a global recession" is precisely assigning a paramount value to wealth.

Also - more an economic point than a theological one - a sell-off of property, shares and business interests is pretty much the opposite of what you do if you're trying to stop a recession.

Gerry T

Peregrinus wrote: »

I gotta say that prioritising "trying to stop a global recession" is precisely assigning a paramount value to wealth.

In 2009 it was estimated there were approx 9,000 additional deaths in suicide due to the recession. That doesn't include the deaths in poor areas that rely on charity donations, something that will be hit with a recession. It's bad enough people are dying from c19, we need to try control that, we also need to try control economies, its not a one or the other choice, we need to do both.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Also - more an economic point than a theological one - a sell-off of property, shares and business interests is pretty much the opposite of what you do if you're trying to stop a recession.

But the church wouldn't be selling to keep the money, they would be selling to pump the money back into economies, billion's of it. A give away. That's not the same as selling and keeping the money locked away. What's needed to stop or slow this recession is for more money to be spent. There's plenty of very wealthy people that would buy priceless art where that money is now locked away. Their could be conditions set in the sale to protect any artistic value.
From a theological perspective, I thought judgement day was when you die, free choice up until then. Not exactly free choice if your struck down quickly with no future chance to repent. I don't subscribe to a god that punishes, that's just man's narrative, people shouldn't be linking the dot's to make c19 a warning from god, it doesn't help.