Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

JupiterKid · 28-07-2020 10:42pm #1

So the iconic and historic Shelbourne Hotel on St Stephens Green in Dublin, considered the “Grand Dame” of Irish hotels, has controversially taken down the four metal statues that adorned its front entrance - as the company who now owns the hotel believes that in the current “Black Lives Matter” climate that it would be completely inappropriate to keep the 153 year old statues.

Architectural historians and conservationists including the Irish Georgian Society are up in arms over this move. Some have asked where does all this virtue signaling end? Demolish all the 18th and 19th Century buildings built on the possible profits from the slave trade?

What are the views of posters here on this apparent storm in a teacup?

Mod warning 31/07/20

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod: Thread has gone wildly off topic. Can we please get back to discussing the removal of historic statues from the Shelbourne Hotel and the actual content of the Prime Time discussion, rather than your personal feelings about Dr Ebun Joseph.

blanch152 · 28-07-2020 10:44pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

So the iconic and historic Shelbourne Hotel on St Stephens Green in Dublin, considered the “Grand Dame” of Irish hotels, has controversially taken down the four metal statues that adorned its front entrance - as the company who now owns the hotel believes that in the current “Black Lives Matter” climate that it would be completely inappropriate to keep the 153 year old statues.

Architectural historians and conservationists including the Irish Georgian Society are up in arms over this move. Some have asked where does all this virtue signaling end? Demolish all the 18th and 19th Century buildings built on the possible profits from the slave trade?

What are the views of posters here on this apparent storm in a teacup?

Do you have a link to this story?

Do you have a link to tell us what the statues were and who they were?

Do you have a link to whether it was about how the statues were built or who they were?

What has it got to do with buildings in general?

KaneToad · 28-07-2020 10:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have a link to this story?

Do you have a link to tell us what the statues were and who they were?

Do you have a link to whether it was about how the statues were built or who they were?

What has it got to do with buildings in general?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/statues-of-slaves-removed-from-outside-the-shelbourne-hotel-39404931.html

Beechwoodspark · 28-07-2020 10:46pm

Regular Patron of the hotel and was never bothered by the sculpture.

Skyfloater · 28-07-2020 10:49pm

Why not say that they're water nymphs or vestal virgins instead and stop all this nonsense.

jam_mac_jam · 28-07-2020 10:50pm

How are they allowed to do this? Surely they have artistic and historical value. This is crazy.

I wish people gave one per cent of a **** about actual slaves in the world we would be better off. There are actual slave markets in Libya, there are child soldiers, poor Nepali men dying for buildings in the gulf, camps in China.

But ohhhhh no something happened in the US a hundred and fifty years ago. It's truly sickening.

Only US lives matter it seems.

sabat · 28-07-2020 11:00pm

Illegal surely?

Montage of Feck · 28-07-2020 11:02pm

The statues were hardly there as a celebration of slavery were they now?

walshb · 28-07-2020 11:03pm

World is fooking mad....and the maddest thing is that it's going to get madder...

KaneToad · 28-07-2020 11:06pm

Wait till they start going through the art galleries of the world and start removing the masterpieces that depict unsavoury content.

ceadaoin. · 28-07-2020 11:07pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

How are they allowed to do this? Surely they have artistic and historical value. This is crazy.

I wish people gave one per cent of a **** about actual slaves in the world we would be better off. There are actual slave markets in Libya, there are child soldiers, poor Nepali men dying for buildings in the gulf, camps in China.

But ohhhhh no something happened in the US a hundred and fifty years ago. It's truly sickening.

Only US lives matter it seems.

Its says the depictions are of Nubian princesses and their slave girls. So its literally nothing to do with the US or their slave trade but a depiction of African history. Seems a bit ott to remove them.

y0ssar1an22 · 28-07-2020 11:09pm

the fact that they were removed, is an acknowledgment that the statues in some way support slavery, is that correct? Otherwise, why remove them?

and if that is the case, are the owners now admitting that they by extension were supporting slavery up until today? Otherwise, why not remove them when they took ownership?

El_Duderino 09 · 28-07-2020 11:11pm

sabat wrote: »

Illegal surely?

Illegal for the hotel to change its own decorations? Do people not even pretend to read the stories before a kneejerk reaction?

thebaz · 28-07-2020 11:11pm

as a Supporter of Black Lives Matter - I think this FAKE virtue signalling by the Shelbournbe hotel and the Marriot hotel group trying to be so hip and woke - when in reality they only care for bottom line profit and feeding and caring for the Super rich - The Marriot hotel group Marketing team planned this so the gullible public will think how great they are - well I'm not fooled.

jam_mac_jam · 28-07-2020 11:14pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Its says the depictions are of Nubian princesses and their slave girls. So its literally nothing to do with the US or their slave trade but a depiction of African history. Seems a bit ott to remove them.

Nothing to do with the US? Really?

It's just a coincidence they are being removed now?

El_Duderino 09 · 28-07-2020 11:15pm

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The statues were hardly there as a celebration of slavery were they now?

They were statues of slaves ffs What do you think they were for? Lol. It'll take some really limber mental gymnastics to make the anti BLM argument on this.

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:21pm

Where will this all end? I doubt anyone cared about the two Nubian lassies carrying the lamps. But now it's all news.

Publicity perhaps. But the US visitors won't be here anytime soon anyway. Maybe those qualifying for PUP can go there on their holliers without losing their benefit.

As another poster said, we will be left with nothing only glass and trees and a few chairs before long. Modern slavery is what should be paramount now. History is history.

Overheal · 28-07-2020 11:23pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

So the iconic and historic Shelbourne Hotel on St Stephens Green in Dublin, considered the “Grand Dame” of Irish hotels, has controversially taken down the four metal statues that adorned its front entrance - as the company who now owns the hotel believes that in the current “Black Lives Matter” climate that it would be completely inappropriate to keep the 153 year old statues.

Architectural historians and conservationists including the Irish Georgian Society are up in arms over this move. Some have asked where does all this virtue signaling end? Demolish all the 18th and 19th Century buildings built on the possible profits from the slave trade?

What are the views of posters here on this apparent storm in a teacup?

So they “removed” the statues but you’ve gone for the slippery slope of “demolish all the 18th and 19th century buildings” - seems to be the only storm in a teacup here tbh. The statues aren’t demolished yes just removed from the hotel front?

o1s1n · 28-07-2020 11:24pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They were statues of slaves ffs What do you think they were for? Lol. It'll take some really limber mental gymnastics to make the anti BLM argument on this.

They were a piece of Dublin heritage dating back 153 years.

Here's a picture of them from the 1890s. Think of all the people who have walked under them over the years.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RobCross247/status/1288226272909434881?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

It's cultural vandalism.

Eric Cartman · 28-07-2020 11:24pm

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The statues were hardly there as a celebration of slavery were they now?

not until it was pointed out. Id say they were removed for their own protection. Hopefully to be reinstalled in a more enlightened future when this obsession with vaporising history ends.

Rodney Bathgate · 28-07-2020 11:26pm

His story? Sexist.

NIMAN · 28-07-2020 11:27pm

Maybe best to take them down in good condition before a numbskull comes at them with an angle grinder.

LessOutragePlz · 28-07-2020 11:27pm

The outrage will never end.

Signore Fancy Pants · 28-07-2020 11:30pm

I think tokenism for the sake of tokenism in any context is retarded.

Obviously they felt "expected" to remove the statues. In reality, it is highly doubtful that the statues themselves were a celebration of slavery.

I think the erasing of (even distateful) history from times past is as bad as the distasteful history itself.

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:30pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

His story? Sexist.

I don't think Aristotle or the Greeks would agree with you at all

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:33pm

When all aspects of BLM anger are eventually removed, no one will know anything about slavery unless they read about it in a book if they are that bothered. Some things should remain on view as a lesson to the bewildered.

Leg End Reject · 28-07-2020 11:33pm

It's a shame to remove these as they form part of a landmark building.

I'm more outraged at the €7500 per night Princess Grace Suite than I am about these statues representing slavery. I'd love to spend a night there to see what it's like.

ExMachina1000 · 28-07-2020 11:35pm

thebaz wrote: »

as a Supporter of Black Lives Matter - I think this FAKE virtue signalling by the Shelbournbe hotel and the Marriot hotel group trying to be so hip and woke - when in reality they only care for bottom line profit and feeding and caring for the Super rich - The Marriot hotel group Marketing team planned this so the gullible public will think how great they are - well I'm not fooled.

Yes they should not want to run a profitable business. I think they should all just close down. Staff can go on welfare.

But who will pay for welfare via income tax if all of the businesses who only operate for profit close?

Overheal · 28-07-2020 11:35pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

When all aspects of BLM anger are eventually removed, no one will know anything about slavery unless they read about it in a book if they are that bothered. Some things should remain on view as a lesson to the bewildered.

Like what, leaving Nazi statues in the Berlin city center?

There’s a proper place for history and it’s not always in positions of honor.

Yyhhuuu · 28-07-2020 11:42pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

So the iconic and historic Shelbourne Hotel on St Stephens Green in Dublin, considered the “Grand Dame” of Irish hotels, has controversially taken down the four metal statues that adorned its front entrance - as the company who now owns the hotel believes that in the current “Black Lives Matter” climate that it would be completely inappropriate to keep the 153 year old statues.

Architectural historians and conservationists including the Irish Georgian Society are up in arms over this move. Some have asked where does all this virtue signaling end? Demolish all the 18th and 19th Century buildings built on the possible profits from the slave trade?

What are the views of posters here on this apparent storm in a teacup?

Planning permission is most certainly required to remove any part of the protected structure.

Please lodge a complaint to Dublin city council's planning enforcement section. E mail/ postal address:

The Enforcement Section
Planning Department
Civic Offices
Block 4, Floor 2
Wood Quay
Dublin 8

Email: planningenforcement@dublincity.ie

Tel: (01) 222 2147

nullzero · 28-07-2020 11:45pm

They're entitled to remove the statues as they are private property.

Whatever the reasoning may be.

Personally I would have thought it's a reasonable thing to do when consideration is given to the amount of statues being vandalized and/or removed these days. No business owner wants destruction of their property, and if these statues had been removed by protestors there is reasonable likelihood that other damage may have been done to the hotel.

While it may seem like virtue signalling on the surface, it's most likely a move to avoid vandalism, any criminal damage caused may have had a knock on effect on staff, so given that choice seeing the statues removed this way is preferable.

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:46pm

Overheal wrote: »

Like what, leaving Nazi statues in the Berlin city center?

There’s a proper place for history and it’s not always in positions of honor.

A decorative statue outside a hotel is not similar at all.

lawrencesummers · 28-07-2020 11:47pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

How are they allowed to do this? Surely they have artistic and historical value. This is crazy.

I wish people gave one per cent of a **** about actual slaves in the world we would be better off. There are actual slave markets in Libya, there are child soldiers, poor Nepali men dying for buildings in the gulf, camps in China.

But ohhhhh no something happened in the US a hundred and fifty years ago. It's truly sickening.

Only US lives matter it seems.

There is a protest planned for August 2065 to address these issues in the severest of manners.

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:48pm

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Planning permission is most certainly required to remove any part of the protected structure.

Please lodge a complaint to Dublin city council's planning enforcement section. E mail/ postal address:

The Enforcement Section
Planning Department
Civic Offices
Block 4, Floor 2
Wood Quay
Dublin 8

Email: planningenforcement@dublincity.ie

Tel: (01) 222 2147

I would have thought so too. But we shall see what happens. I doubt they will be forced to reinstate them anytime soon though. Shelbourne Reputation Matters.

Yyhhuuu · 28-07-2020 11:49pm

nullzero wrote: »

They're entitled to remove the statues as they are private property.

Whatever the reasoning may be.

Personally I would have thought it's a reasonable thing to do when consideration is given to the amount of statues being vandalized and/or removed these days. No business owner wants destruction of their property, and if these statues had been removed by protestors there is reasonable likelihood that other damage may have been done to the hotel.

While it may seem like virtue signalling on the surface, it's most likely a move to avoid vandalism, any criminal damage caused may have had a knock on effect on staff, so given that choice seeing the statues removed this way is preferable.

It is not permitted to interfere with the fabric of a protected structure such as the Shelbourne Hotel without firstly obtaining planning permission. If no such permission was obtained lodge a complaint to Dublin City Council's Enforcement section. See address above.

KaneToad · 28-07-2020 11:50pm

nullzero wrote: »

They're entitled to remove the statues as they are private property.

.

If I buy these statues can I place them on the roof of my private property in Dublin City centre?

jam_mac_jam · 28-07-2020 11:51pm

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Planning permission is most certainly required to remove any part of the protected structure.

Please lodge a complaint to Dublin city council's planning enforcement section. E mail/ postal address:

The Enforcement Section
Planning Department
Civic Offices
Block 4, Floor 2
Wood Quay
Dublin 8

Email: planningenforcement@dublincity.ie

Tel: (01) 222 2147

I will lodge a complaint. Thanks for that.

Yyhhuuu · 28-07-2020 11:51pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I would have thought so too. But we shall see what happens. I doubt they will be forced to reinstate them anytime soon though. Shelbourne Reputation Matters.

Of course if they are in contravention of Planning Law an Enforcement Notice will issue by the Council. A complaint must be made by a member of the public first before the council will act on the matter.

jam_mac_jam · 28-07-2020 11:53pm

Overheal wrote: »

Like what, leaving Nazi statues in the Berlin city center?

There’s a proper place for history and it’s not always in positions of honor.

Nazi statues? Really. Tiny bit different.

They are iconic statues that have been there for 150 years. I doubt anyone even knew they were of slaves.

goose2005 · 28-07-2020 11:54pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Its says the depictions are of Nubian princesses and their slave girls. So its literally nothing to do with the US or their slave trade but a depiction of African history. Seems a bit ott to remove them.

It's from a time when Egyptian art was popular.

tbh I always thought it was a bit weird, surprised the statues lasted this long.

o1s1n · 28-07-2020 11:54pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Nazi statues? Really

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone in the past was a Nazi and their history must be eradicated.

mc25 · 28-07-2020 11:54pm

The article did say that they had been planned to be removed for some time...

I mean that could be corporate BS, but would there be as much talk here if it was statues of unicorns or something equally as ridiculous?

Spanish Eyes · 28-07-2020 11:56pm

I hope they will be delicately placed somewhere on the delightful outdoor terrace which is off the majestic staircase on the mezzanine. A hidden gem if ever there was one.

There I've given my secret spot away for you all now. But you all know about it I suppose.

sabat · 28-07-2020 11:57pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Illegal for the hotel to change its own decorations? Do people not even pretend to read the stories before a kneejerk reaction?

Yes, illegal. I can't believe a post this ill-informed got thanks. And don't try to smugly brush it off like they're just painting the lobby or something.
Ironically, this is a blatant case of American cultural imperialism.

ceadaoin. · 28-07-2020 11:57pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Nothing to do with the US? Really?

It's just a coincidence they are being removed now?

I meant the statues portray African princesses and their slaves who are also African so in that sense has nothing to do with American history. To remove it because of what is happening in the US seems like virtue signaling, especially if no one has complained or even noticed.

o1s1n · 28-07-2020 11:57pm

mc25 wrote: »

The article did say that they had been planned to be removed for some time...

I mean that could be corporate BS, but would there be as much talk here if it was statues of unicorns or something equally as ridiculous?

If they were 153 year old historical statues of unicorns on part of a protected structure and they were taken down for offending Bronies, then yes people would be annoyed.

Yyhhuuu · 28-07-2020 11:57pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I hope they will be delicately placed somewhere on the delightful outdoor terrace which is off the majestic staircase on the mezzanine. A hidden gem if ever there was one.

There I've given my secret spot away for you all now. But you all know about it I suppose.

They should be reinstated immediately.

Spanish Eyes · 29-07-2020 12:04am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

They should be reinstated immediately.

I meant place them on the Terrace for the time being until a decision is made by the Enforcement in DCC or whatever. If vandalism is what they are worried about they'd be safe up there.

Anyway, I doubt this will gain much traction given the times we are in at the moment. Maybe it will, but I am sceptical. Money talks sometimes. But we'll see.

Rodney Bathgate · 29-07-2020 12:06am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't think Aristotle or the Greeks would agree with you at all

Choosing to continue using these patriarchal terms is embedding sexism into our culture on every level.

Still waters · 29-07-2020 12:08am

Silly cnuts

I'd wager a good number of the wealthy patrons of the hotel have a very chequered history on how their wealth has been accumulated, especially "old money" as the yanks would call it, I'd also like to see an end to the hotel accommodating the business leaders from certain industries such as some German motor manufacturers, Siemens and Pfizer, also no representatives from African countries where slavery was a booming business for centuries, no Saudi/middle eastern oil barons or royals whose countries uses slave labour to build desert oasis cities, lets not forget Chinese and Russian delegates whose countries use prisoners as slaves in concentration camps, nor American railroad officials on whose tracks so many Irish and Chinese slave labourers died to gratify land grabs off native Americans and oil barons.

Lets not get carried away listening to a vile racist group like BLM, history shouldn't be forgotten or erased, face up to it and use it to improve mankind not to bury history because a few black people in America think they're owed something because they perceive themselves to be oppressed

Overheal · 29-07-2020 12:11am

KaneToad wrote: »

If I buy these statues can I place them on the roof of my private property in Dublin City centre?

Yes. Barring planning permission from city council but I’d think you have a case to do so.

Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

Comments