Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil.

emaherx · 17-10-2020 5:39pm #1

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

patsy_mccabe · 17-10-2020 5:58pm

Where do they think the straw that is bought by livestock farmers end up?

emaherx · 17-10-2020 6:00pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Where do they think the straw that is bought by livestock farmers end up?

If ploughed in that way it even comes with the added benefit of extra nutrients.

yosemitesam1 · 17-10-2020 6:33pm

emaherx wrote: »

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

Reduced tillage would definitely have been a better option. Lignin is broken down fairly readily and doesn't associate with soil particles

kevthegaff · 17-10-2020 9:25pm

Youd hope the greens will bring in burying animals on farm to reduce transport and processing emissions. No that wouldnt happen..

gozunda · 18-10-2020 12:23am

emaherx wrote: »

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.

emaherx · 18-10-2020 7:39am

gozunda wrote: »

Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.

Well the plan according to the tiny article (more of a paragraph) is to trap more carbon in the soil. If more artificial fertilizer is required then a lot more carbon will be produced somewhere else.

yosemitesam1 · 18-10-2020 8:11am

gozunda wrote: »

Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.

In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

Mooooo · 18-10-2020 8:52am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

More of an issue with bark mulch/ wood chip if it's not rotted pre spreading

Grueller · 18-10-2020 8:53am

Mooooo wrote: »

More of an issue with bark mulch/ wood chip if it's not rotted pre spreading

How long do you need to rot it for Mooooo?

kevthegaff · 18-10-2020 9:11am

Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

Mooooo · 18-10-2020 9:14am

Grueller wrote: »

How long do you need to rot it for Mooooo?

Afaik it should be 12 months or more in a dung heap before being spread. The small bit I have under the calves with straw on top from the spring has hardly rotted at all

yosemitesam1 · 18-10-2020 9:32am

kevthegaff wrote: »

Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

Yes, everything will be released eventually.
But when it comes to the carbon in microbes and simple sugars/proteins. What happens with a small proportion is they stick to clay and silt particles making access to them harder or impossible.
So you end up with a pool of carbon which can take hundreds of years to cycle back out, it's this pool which offers the most potential to be increased and this is also responsible for soil structure, water holding capacity etc

patsy_mccabe · 18-10-2020 9:34am

kevthegaff wrote: »

Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

No it builds up in the soil in the form of top soil. Over millenia it goes deeper underground forming the oil and gas that all this hullabaloo is about.

NcdJd · 18-10-2020 9:37am

Mooooo wrote: »

Afaik it should be 12 months or more in a dung heap before being spread. The small bit I have under the calves with straw on top from the spring has hardly rotted at all

The longer you leave it the better. Farmer next to me has a large pile of it out in a field thats lying there more than two years. Black gold.

NcdJd · 18-10-2020 9:43am

I wonder how much of an uptake there is going to be on this. You can't min till heavy clay soils and trying to plough in large amounts of straw laying on the ground in these circumstances would be difficult. I'd say there will still be a lot of tillage farmers that would rather bale it. I'd love to hear waffletractors view on this.

Also what about fungal diseases being carried over the winter time.

Plus is there would be a large organic matter addition to the soil structure but would think rotted manures would be a better option.

gozunda · 18-10-2020 10:38am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

In reality it does and is a well know phenomenon where stubble is retained or ploughed in. Whilst relatively temporary "Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied."

Incorporation of cereal stubble will increase immobilisation quickly and is dependent upon background soil mineral nitrogen status, soil type and rainfall events. Incorporated wheat stubble can immobilise 5–13kg/ha of nitrogen for each tonne of stubble, while standing stubble has a slower rate of stubble decomposition and will generally immobilise less than 5kg/ha. If soil nitrogen levels are low, applying nutrients at the time of incorporation may assist in reducing the amount of nitrogen that is immobilised....

Stubble retention is associated with a temporary nitrogen lag during early crop growth stages, as microbes ‘borrow’ soil nitrogen to break down the stubble from the previous crop. This is known as nitrogen tie-up or immobilisation.

Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied. A rough rule of thumb is that every tonne per hectare of cereal or canola stubble will tie-up 5 kg/ha of nitrogen....

Additional nitrogen at sowing helps to provide the nutrition required to break down the previous stubble and also makes sure the germinating crop has sufficient nitrogen to establish, which ultimately helps maintain yield potential.

https://grdc.com.au/research/trials,-programs-and-initiatives/stubble-initiative/how-do-i-manage-nitrogen-in-a-stubble-retained-system

yosemitesam1 · 18-10-2020 11:04am

gozunda wrote: »

In reality it does and is a well know phenomenon where stubble is retained or ploughed in. Whilst relatively temporary "Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied."

https://grdc.com.au/research/trials,-programs-and-initiatives/stubble-initiative/how-do-i-manage-nitrogen-in-a-stubble-retained-system

The real cause of any setback is nothing to do with n but an allelopathic type effect from the residue which favours the growth of pythium root root.

tabby aspreme · 18-10-2020 11:18am

For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage

Say my name · 18-10-2020 11:30am

Money would have been better spent getting farmers to bury their cotton underpants.

The sooner people cotton on to the fact it's not as simple as burying straw the better.

Maybe that's what Pippa Hackett meant by soil health tests.

It'll be a boon for the underpants market of course. Reckon an underpants per acre should do it.

NcdJd · 18-10-2020 11:50am

Apologies looking from the outside in on this and trying to comprehend this thing, but considering the adverse impact that this would cause the beef, dairy and mushroom industry through lack of barley and wheaten straw does anyone not find that there is more to this than meets the eye ? Straw eventually ends up in the soil anyway. I think it's a ludicrous idea.

18-10-2020 12:02pm

emaherx wrote: »

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

As a livestock farmer the price of straw + haulage the last few years has been a worry to the point it has cured me of thinking of straw as an option for the future. I heard on a recent podcast organic mintill is becoming very close to reality now. Paying to plough is like being paid to set stock & overgraze.

IMO what is on show with this scheme is how government interference on farms is a bad thing both for the farms and farmers themselves. Some will say, money, great! While the most valuable asset is being eroded/degraded under their feet.

Say my name · 18-10-2020 12:27pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

It's amazing though how far reaching the effect a small amount of molasses can have compared to the massive bulk of artificial nitrogen or I'd guess even a big amount of decaying organic plant matter.
It's an eye opener.
It builds organic matter/carbon as well as the nitrogen.

Very promising to hear you post that it's a long lived carbon too.
I'd hazard a guess that the winter rains washing it into the soil profile should deepen top soil too.

I know we should be using sugars from the plant roots themselves but it's a handy fast tool to have.

Markcheese · 18-10-2020 12:36pm

kevthegaff wrote: »

Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

Yes and no ....the more the soil is tilled the more carbon is usually released ... A continuous tillage field is going to release a lot of carbon over 20 years ,
A continuous grass lay , with minimal nitrogen fertilizer will actually lock up a fair bit of carbon , and everything else is probably in between ...

emaherx · 18-10-2020 1:14pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage

But would ploughing it in too early in Autumn with no cover not defeat the purpose of trying to lock in carbon?

tabby aspreme · 18-10-2020 1:34pm

emaherx wrote: »

But would ploughing it in too early in Autumn with no cover not defeat the purpose of trying to lock in carbon?

Winter cereal crops are sown in Autumn, usually within 4-8 weeks of the previous harvest, with crop cover established a few weeks after sowing, August - September sown winter oilseed and barley has plenty of ground cover at the moment

gozunda · 18-10-2020 2:10pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage

Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-10-2020 2:50pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.

Lots in this debate hasn't been well thought out but we're slowly bringing science into the discussion rather than wishful thinking and blind virtue signalling.

We hear lots about wildly blanketing the whole country with forestry and veg will feed us all and there's no need for grasslands as forestry will absorb all our carbon emissions, which is childish at best. Policy makers need to start listening to actual scientists, not Jim in his box room piggybacking on his mothers Wifi.

https://twitter.com/fleroy1974/status/1317054509357666312?s=20

Say my name · 18-10-2020 3:40pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.

Calling it life tie up instead of nitrogen tie up would be a start in all these discussions.

So many think bag nitrogen means life..it doesn't, yet it's life that's required to break down the straw. It's a large amount of varied life.
If you kill your life with tillage, fungicides, pesticides and whatever seed treatments you have you'll be ploughing that straw back up.

More here..

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/tillage/tillage-farm-profiles/how-this-kildare-farmer-is-bringing-biology-back-into-his-soils-one-field-at-at-time-39615938.html

richie123 · 18-10-2020 4:57pm

Say my name wrote: »

Calling it life tie up instead of nitrogen tie up would be a start in all these discussions.

So many think bag nitrogen means life..it doesn't, yet it's life that's required to break down the straw. It's a large amount of varied life.
If you kill your life with tillage, fungicides, pesticides and whatever seed treatments you have you'll be ploughing that straw back up.

More here..

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/tillage/tillage-farm-profiles/how-this-kildare-farmer-is-bringing-biology-back-into-his-soils-one-field-at-at-time-39615938.html

And if you don't use those treatments you'll end up with vastly reduced yields.

Mooooo · 18-10-2020 5:21pm

Measures to help setup dung being returned to tillage farms or similar would be more useful I'd imagine? Storage solutions or perhaps wintering solutions where tillage farms could winter stock and keep nutrients on farm. I dunno. Be interesting to hear tillage lads opinion

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-10-2020 5:26pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Measures to help setup dung being returned to tillage farms or similar would be more useful I'd imagine? Storage solutions or perhaps wintering solutions where tillage farms could winter stock and keep nutrients on farm. I dunno. Be interesting to hear tillage lads opinion

The majority of available solutions point back to animal manures.

Say my name · 18-10-2020 5:55pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

The majority of available solutions point back to animal manures.

Gawddawgonnit had it when the answer is mixed farms.
It's for tillage farms to include some livestock and livestock farms to include some legume cereal mix.

Say my name · 18-10-2020 5:58pm

richie123 wrote: »

And if you don't use those treatments you'll end up with vastly reduced yields.

There's operators not far from me using biologicals and brix measuring and mix species cover crops and they'd be up at the very top in yields per acre.

tabby aspreme · 18-10-2020 6:38pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Measures to help setup dung being returned to tillage farms or similar would be more useful I'd imagine? Storage solutions or perhaps wintering solutions where tillage farms could winter stock and keep nutrients on farm. I dunno. Be interesting to hear tillage lads opinion

A few lads around here are doing that with beef finishers , straw going into finishing feedlots and dung coming back for the tillage ground, win win alround.

Say my name · 18-10-2020 7:18pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

A few lads around here are doing that with beef finishers , straw going into finishing feedlots and dung coming back for the tillage ground, win win alround.

They hardly get the sh1t as well as all the straw?

Fert testing of straw and equivalent straw and sh1t returned?

richie123 · 18-10-2020 7:20pm

Say my name wrote: »

There's operators not far from me using biologicals and brix measuring and mix species cover crops and they'd be up at the very top in yields per acre.

where are they ?

Say my name · 18-10-2020 7:24pm

richie123 wrote: »

where are they ?

In wexford.

tabby aspreme · 18-10-2020 7:32pm

Say my name wrote: »

They hardly get the sh1t as well as all the straw?

Fert testing of straw and equivalent straw and sh1t returned?

It's kinda hard to separate it after it's used, there would also be grain traded between them, the finishers in question would not have enough land of there own to spread on, even with a lot of maize being grown

Say my name · 18-10-2020 7:47pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

It's kinda hard to separate it after it's used, there would also be grain traded between them, the finishers in question would not have enough land of there own to spread on, even with a lot of maize being grown

I know what you're saying. It's just the whole nitrates directive is a crock of s..t.

I bet that finisher above does it to comply with the directive and then after exporting the manure they have to go to merchants and buy fertilizer.

Birdnuts · 18-10-2020 7:50pm

gozunda wrote: »

.

Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.

Many of these so called "climate" policies aren't - just think back to the Greens pushing diesel engines and biofuels only a couple of years ago:rolleyes:

Markcheese · 18-10-2020 8:05pm

Say my name wrote: »

I know what you're saying. It's just the whole nitrates directive is a crock of s..t.

I bet that finisher above does it to comply with the directive and then after exporting the manure they have to go to merchants and buy fertilizer.

If he's buying in straw , and ration , he'll have his grazing and silage/ maize platform available to spread his maximum allowance of doing and slurry on , everything else goes to his straw/ grain provider , a nice circular system .
That's not to say that he doesn't use bag fertilizer .. but if he's treating his manure right, and potentially testing his manures ,then he has the chance to get the best out of it ..
How would this work out for a farm out way out west buying in straw from across the Shannon , would they be expected to truck the manure back ..?
Sounds pricey and fairly carbon wastful ....

Say my name · 18-10-2020 8:28pm

Markcheese wrote: »

If he's buying in straw , and ration , he'll have his grazing and silage/ maize platform available to spread his maximum allowance of doing and slurry on , everything else goes to his straw/ grain provider , a nice circular system .
That's not to say that he doesn't use bag fertilizer .. but if he's treating his manure right, and potentially testing his manures ,then he has the chance to get the best out of it ..
How would this work out for a farm out way out west buying in straw from across the Shannon , would they be expected to truck the manure back ..?
Sounds pricey and fairly carbon wastful ....

Dung straw deals generally start from the tillage operator wanting the total straw dung back with no dung staying on the livestock farmer side.

Then you have some who'll consult teagasc on trying for like for like exchanges.

I know some who started out on each of the above craic but both left it and put in slats or cubicles as their own land was suffering or they thought the other was getting the better hand.

The nitrates directive was drawn up considering manure as waste and thus it should be spread far and wide and as thinly as possible on land.

18-10-2020 8:55pm

Markcheese wrote: »

How would this work out for a farm out way out west buying in straw from across the Shannon , would they be expected to truck the manure back ..?

If he's smart he won't have anything to do with craic like that. Plant trees this Winter for bedding for the future, in the mean time out winter or buy in woodchip. Take a few years to compost properly but it'd be worth it over time. If there were large scale dung for straw trucking **** back and forth, how long before that comes under someones magnifying glass for pointless diesel burning? Better off being as self sufficient as possible from here on out.

Waffletraktor · 18-10-2020 8:59pm

NcdJd wrote: »

I wonder how much of an uptake there is going to be on this. You can't min till heavy clay soils and trying to plough in large amounts of straw laying on the ground in these circumstances would be difficult. I'd say there will still be a lot of tillage farmers that would rather bale it. I'd love to hear waffletractors view on this.

Also what about fungal diseases being carried over the winter time.

Plus is there would be a large organic matter addition to the soil structure but would think rotted manures would be a better option.

Boy's ground is called so for a reason, much the same as man's ground.
topdowns vs sumo's

NcdJd · 18-10-2020 9:06pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Boy's ground is called so for a reason, much the same as man's ground.
topdowns vs sumo's

Well funny thing you say there. I'm surrounded by very heavy clay soils. All the tillage lads her have to use ploughs. An outfit that comes from an area of light sandy soil has some rented this year. In comes the lad with a 6 metre mashio rotovator. Soil is fairly heavy at the moment. Off he goes and where does he get ? Nowhere. Just hard wear on both tractor and rotovator.Father called them fckin ejjits they should have done what they are doing now 6 weeks ago.

GrasstoMilk · 18-10-2020 11:20pm

Swapped our dung for years in Lew of straw and to keep us out of dero.
Wont ever do it again, our land suffered.
The value of the dung well outweighed the potential fine if it wasnt exported

But I do see the thought process behind this idea, tillage land needs organic matter too
Becomes a cold hard lump with out it, we took on a farm that was exactly that.

Took us 10 years to get it in the right direction

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-10-2020 11:45pm

There's already a directive here to test tillage land every 4(?) years to check the organic matter content and the remedies for that to bring it back up include returning it to grassland.

And there's a restriction on converting permanent pastures into tillage of a maximum of 5% of the available area in any one year so the problems of continuously tillling soils are pretty well known.

By farmers, at any rate.

Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil.

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