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Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil.

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  • 17-10-2020 5:39pm
    #1
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭


    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

    Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.


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    #2
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,689 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Where do they think the straw that is bought by livestock farmers end up?

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #3
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭emaherx


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Where do they think the straw that is bought by livestock farmers end up?

    If ploughed in that way it even comes with the added benefit of extra nutrients.


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    #4
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    emaherx wrote: »
    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

    Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

    Reduced tillage would definitely have been a better option. Lignin is broken down fairly readily and doesn't associate with soil particles


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    #5
    kevthegaff
    Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    Youd hope the greens will bring in burying animals on farm to reduce transport and processing emissions. No that wouldnt happen..


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    #6
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    emaherx wrote: »
    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

    Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

    Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

    Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.


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    #7
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭emaherx


    gozunda wrote: »
    Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

    Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.

    Well the plan according to the tiny article (more of a paragraph) is to trap more carbon in the soil. If more artificial fertilizer is required then a lot more carbon will be produced somewhere else.


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    #8
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    gozunda wrote: »
    Problem with straw being ploughed in - is that the decomposition process whilst adding houmus will actually reduce the amount of nitrogen in the soil as the break down of high-carbon plant material requires nitrogen.

    Having soils depleted of N will simply mean tillage farmers needing to add extra artifical fertiliser. Hardly the ecogical solution they're looking for imo.

    In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
    If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary


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    #9
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
    If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

    More of an issue with bark mulch/ wood chip if it's not rotted pre spreading


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    #10
    Grueller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭Grueller


    Mooooo wrote: »
    More of an issue with bark mulch/ wood chip if it's not rotted pre spreading

    How long do you need to rot it for Mooooo?


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    #11
    kevthegaff
    Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?


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    #12
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Grueller wrote: »
    How long do you need to rot it for Mooooo?

    Afaik it should be 12 months or more in a dung heap before being spread. The small bit I have under the calves with straw on top from the spring has hardly rotted at all


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    #13
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

    Yes, everything will be released eventually.
    But when it comes to the carbon in microbes and simple sugars/proteins. What happens with a small proportion is they stick to clay and silt particles making access to them harder or impossible.
    So you end up with a pool of carbon which can take hundreds of years to cycle back out, it's this pool which offers the most potential to be increased and this is also responsible for soil structure, water holding capacity etc


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    #14
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,689 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?
    No it builds up in the soil in the form of top soil. Over millenia it goes deeper underground forming the oil and gas that all this hullabaloo is about.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #15
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Afaik it should be 12 months or more in a dung heap before being spread. The small bit I have under the calves with straw on top from the spring has hardly rotted at all

    The longer you leave it the better. Farmer next to me has a large pile of it out in a field thats lying there more than two years. Black gold.


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    #16
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    I wonder how much of an uptake there is going to be on this. You can't min till heavy clay soils and trying to plough in large amounts of straw laying on the ground in these circumstances would be difficult. I'd say there will still be a lot of tillage farmers that would rather bale it. I'd love to hear waffletractors view on this.

    Also what about fungal diseases being carried over the winter time.

    Plus is there would be a large organic matter addition to the soil structure but would think rotted manures would be a better option.


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    #17
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

    In reality it does and is a well know phenomenon where stubble is retained or ploughed in. Whilst relatively temporary "Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied."
    Incorporation of cereal stubble will increase immobilisation quickly and is dependent upon background soil mineral nitrogen status, soil type and rainfall events. Incorporated wheat stubble can immobilise 5–13kg/ha of nitrogen for each tonne of stubble, while standing stubble has a slower rate of stubble decomposition and will generally immobilise less than 5kg/ha. If soil nitrogen levels are low, applying nutrients at the time of incorporation may assist in reducing the amount of nitrogen that is immobilised....

    Stubble retention is associated with a temporary nitrogen lag during early crop growth stages, as microbes ‘borrow’ soil nitrogen to break down the stubble from the previous crop. This is known as nitrogen tie-up or immobilisation.

    Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied. A rough rule of thumb is that every tonne per hectare of cereal or canola stubble will tie-up 5 kg/ha of nitrogen....

    Additional nitrogen at sowing helps to provide the nutrition required to break down the previous stubble and also makes sure the germinating crop has sufficient nitrogen to establish, which ultimately helps maintain yield potential.


    https://grdc.com.au/research/trials,-programs-and-initiatives/stubble-initiative/how-do-i-manage-nitrogen-in-a-stubble-retained-system


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    #18
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    gozunda wrote: »
    In reality it does and is a well know phenomenon where stubble is retained or ploughed in. Whilst relatively temporary "Nitrogen tie-up can leave the current crop short on available nitrogen during the initial stages of plant growth if adequate fertiliser nitrogen is not supplied."




    https://grdc.com.au/research/trials,-programs-and-initiatives/stubble-initiative/how-do-i-manage-nitrogen-in-a-stubble-retained-system

    The real cause of any setback is nothing to do with n but an allelopathic type effect from the residue which favours the growth of pythium root root.


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    #19
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage


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    #20
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,080 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Money would have been better spent getting farmers to bury their cotton underpants.

    The sooner people cotton on to the fact it's not as simple as burying straw the better.

    Maybe that's what Pippa Hackett meant by soil health tests.

    It'll be a boon for the underpants market of course. Reckon an underpants per acre should do it.


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    #21
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    Apologies looking from the outside in on this and trying to comprehend this thing, but considering the adverse impact that this would cause the beef, dairy and mushroom industry through lack of barley and wheaten straw does anyone not find that there is more to this than meets the eye ? Straw eventually ends up in the soil anyway. I think it's a ludicrous idea.


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    emaherx wrote: »
    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/tillage-farmers-to-be-paid-to-plough-straw-into-soil-577402

    Tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil to Capture carbon. Not much info in the article itself but surely encouraging zero till options would be more beneficial and not leave the livestock industry even shorter on straw supplies. I'm sure any carbon saved through this pilot program will be lost with the increase in straw alternatives.

    As a livestock farmer the price of straw + haulage the last few years has been a worry to the point it has cured me of thinking of straw as an option for the future. I heard on a recent podcast organic mintill is becoming very close to reality now. Paying to plough is like being paid to set stock & overgraze.

    IMO what is on show with this scheme is how government interference on farms is a bad thing both for the farms and farmers themselves. Some will say, money, great! While the most valuable asset is being eroded/degraded under their feet.


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    #23
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,080 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    In reality decomposition doesn't work like that. A very small amount of n would be recycled multiple times while the straw is broken down. It wouldn't mean that more nitrogen fertilizer would be needed.
    If you were to spread a large amount of sugar on land you could induce that shortage of nitrogen but it's only temporary

    It's amazing though how far reaching the effect a small amount of molasses can have compared to the massive bulk of artificial nitrogen or I'd guess even a big amount of decaying organic plant matter.
    It's an eye opener.
    It builds organic matter/carbon as well as the nitrogen.

    Very promising to hear you post that it's a long lived carbon too.
    I'd hazard a guess that the winter rains washing it into the soil profile should deepen top soil too.

    I know we should be using sugars from the plant roots themselves but it's a handy fast tool to have.


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    #24
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    kevthegaff wrote: »
    Does carbon not be released from soils eventually?

    Yes and no ....the more the soil is tilled the more carbon is usually released ... A continuous tillage field is going to release a lot of carbon over 20 years ,
    A continuous grass lay , with minimal nitrogen fertilizer will actually lock up a fair bit of carbon , and everything else is probably in between ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #25
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭emaherx


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage

    But would ploughing it in too early in Autumn with no cover not defeat the purpose of trying to lock in carbon?


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    #26
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    emaherx wrote: »
    But would ploughing it in too early in Autumn with no cover not defeat the purpose of trying to lock in carbon?

    Winter cereal crops are sown in Autumn, usually within 4-8 weeks of the previous harvest, with crop cover established a few weeks after sowing, August - September sown winter oilseed and barley has plenty of ground cover at the moment


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    #27
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    For winter cereal crops, the nitrogen tied up in the decomposing straw shouldn't be much of an issue, if it's ploughed down during the autumn, it should be well rotted by the following March / April when the demand for nitrogen is rising in the growing crop, it would also help rise the levels of organic matter in the soil long term, as low organic matter levels, is an issue with continous tillage

    Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

    Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

    Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.


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    #28
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

    Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

    Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.

    Lots in this debate hasn't been well thought out but we're slowly bringing science into the discussion rather than wishful thinking and blind virtue signalling.

    We hear lots about wildly blanketing the whole country with forestry and veg will feed us all and there's no need for grasslands as forestry will absorb all our carbon emissions, which is childish at best. Policy makers need to start listening to actual scientists, not Jim in his box room piggybacking on his mothers Wifi.

    https://twitter.com/fleroy1974/status/1317054509357666312?s=20


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    #29
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,080 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    gozunda wrote: »
    Yeah I already detailed about this helping to add organic matter. The issue though is that tillage farmers to be paid to plough straw into soil primarily to capture carbon.

    Bar the negative issues of ploughing can have on soils - the ploughing in of straw does use up available nitrogen in the soil. And yes breakdown will help re-established soil nuttients - that breakdown can be very dependent on soil type and weather. The advice given is to add supplemental nitrogen due to Nitrogen tie-up and to help young crops establish and that leads to an additional need for artifical fertiliser which in itself can be a significant source of nitrous oxide - which is an even more potent ghg than carbon dioxide.

    Don't think this policy has been particularly well thought out tbf.
    Calling it life tie up instead of nitrogen tie up would be a start in all these discussions.

    So many think bag nitrogen means life..it doesn't, yet it's life that's required to break down the straw. It's a large amount of varied life.
    If you kill your life with tillage, fungicides, pesticides and whatever seed treatments you have you'll be ploughing that straw back up.

    More here..

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/tillage/tillage-farm-profiles/how-this-kildare-farmer-is-bringing-biology-back-into-his-soils-one-field-at-at-time-39615938.html


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    #30
    richie123
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭richie123


    Say my name wrote: »
    Calling it life tie up instead of nitrogen tie up would be a start in all these discussions.

    So many think bag nitrogen means life..it doesn't, yet it's life that's required to break down the straw. It's a large amount of varied life.
    If you kill your life with tillage, fungicides, pesticides and whatever seed treatments you have you'll be ploughing that straw back up.

    More here..

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/tillage/tillage-farm-profiles/how-this-kildare-farmer-is-bringing-biology-back-into-his-soils-one-field-at-at-time-39615938.html

    And if you don't use those treatments you'll end up with vastly reduced yields.


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    #31
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Measures to help setup dung being returned to tillage farms or similar would be more useful I'd imagine? Storage solutions or perhaps wintering solutions where tillage farms could winter stock and keep nutrients on farm. I dunno. Be interesting to hear tillage lads opinion


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