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Is the possibility of a God not a scary thought...?

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Comments

  • #152
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    As a pagan I'm open to the idea of a God
    , God's or spirits and jinns.
    I've dabbled with things which could be considered benovelant or a rogue spirit.
    Not for the faint hearted that's for sure.

    Where I'm off to tonight on a hike by myself a lot of atheists and thiests wouldn't dare go there on their own or sit there in the dark and listen to animals rustling around Hazel wood's and the odd owl stalking you.
    Seeing a white thing swerve over you at 12:30 am and not expecting it is powerful and would awaken your senses.

    There's definitely more too it than nothingness, some people are able to see things and feel negativity and sadness in the land up there in the Burren.

    Call people woo, spiritual, holy or delusional, it does not matter.

    Contempt prior to investigation is a fools game.

    I cannot prove that there's no God, and nobody can prove that there is a God

    But I do believe people who say that Jesus saved them, a lot of people I know who are Christians live a very simple loving life.
    As well as pagans and the type of atheists who are not trying to undermine people's beliefs.

    As for the strident atheists, I have learnt my lesson.
    There's no taking to them.
    They're too emotionally caught up in it, and will turn, twist manipulate any thing back at you.

    Anyhow I'm off for my hike soon...


  • #153
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭santana75


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    You say we owe him obedience and compare it to parents but he committed genocide in Sodom and Gomorrah and I can tell you if I found out my parents killed my obedience would be gone.

    Again god only created the good but his reaction to the bad is atrocious as above he wiped Sodom and Gomorrah off the map and damns people to eternal torture for being bad and that is on him and no one else


    And why did he wipe Sodom and Gomorrah off the map? You make out as if the people in these places were innocent. And that when two Angel's visited Sodom the men of the town surrounded lot's house and demanded the two men be sent out to them so they could be raped!!! That's an indication of the level of evil that was at work in those places at that time. God didnt randomly send down fire and brimstone for no reason on innocent people.


  • #154
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    santana75 wrote: »
    And why did he wipe Sodom and Gomorrah off the map? You make out as if the people in these places were innocent. And that when two Angel's visited Sodom the men of the town surrounded lot's house and demanded the two men be sent out to them so they could be raped!!! That's an indication of the level of evil that was at work in those places at that time. God didnt randomly send down fire and brimstone for no reason on innocent people.

    So instead of trying to rehabilitate them, it turns out that God is a big fan of the death penalty.

    Interesting. He sounds like a joy.


  • #155
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    monara wrote: »
    Have we? I thought these were discussion forums concerned with meaning rather than the niceties of grammar conventions.:confused:
    monara wrote: »
    EEEEK! I thought I was in the A&A forum; they have a sense of humour there. And not so concerned with grammar, just meaning.

    Mod warning: Respect for peoples position in regard to religious belief applies to everyone posting here equally, both Christians and non-Christians. See point 3 of the charter. Not sure if you've been following the feedback thread here, but would recommend reading it if not. More specifically, please read this post on how we will moderating this forum going forward in order to encourage a greater degree of respect between those with opposing points of view in order to stimulate more friendly discussion. All and any comments in relation to this are welcome in the feedback thread. Thanks for your attention.


  • #156
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    So instead of trying to rehabilitate them, it turns out that God is a big fan of the death penalty.

    Interesting. He sounds like a joy.

    That's the Abrahamic God, in my humble opinion Jesus supposedly wanted people to put their trust in a loving God and change everything.
    If his version of Spirituality or a world view was heard, I think there wouldn't be as much man made suffering in the world.

    The debate is still out on that one.
    I won't say here what I think of the old testament God because it wouldn't be appropriate, and I'll get banned.

    I'm an agnostic Pagan myself, but I read a lot about different cultures and religious beliefs.
    There's so many of them...


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  • #157
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    So instead of trying to rehabilitate them.

    Life is your opportunity to be rehabilitated. A.k.a born again.

    Ain't no rehabilitation like being recreated.


  • #158
    monara
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭monara


    smacl wrote: »
    Mod warning: Respect for peoples position in regard to religious belief applies to everyone posting here equally, both Christians and non-Christians. See point 3 of the charter. Not sure if you've been following the feedback thread here, but would recommend reading it if not. More specifically, please read this post on how we will moderating this forum going forward in order to encourage a greater degree of respect between those with opposing points of view in order to stimulate more friendly discussion. All and any comments in relation to this are welcome in the feedback thread. Thanks for your attention.

    I am at a loss to know when I showed any disrespect to any reigious belief. If you are referring to the post concerning my faith in Atheism being shaken, I would have thought it obvious from the context that this was irony and certainly not intended as in any way disrespectful. Your reaction was OTT while your parsing of the meaning of my use of a capital letter in the word Atheism was frankly ludicrous and would have the general result of inhibiting reasoned comments on this and other sites.

    My apologies to any athiests who may have been offended by my attempt at irony. I admire Atheism as a belief system and my experience of atheists in life and on the Board forums has always been positive. With all due respect to your grammatical expertise I will continue to use a capital letter in the word Atheism as a mark of respect to those who follow that belief system.


  • #159
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Life is your opportunity to be rehabilitated. A.k.a born again.

    Ain't no rehabilitation like being recreated.

    As long as that recreation is a better upgrade :)


  • #160
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    nthclare wrote: »
    As long as that recreation is a better upgrade :)

    Well, its a game if two halves. Born again opens the eyes, which brings about change. But still wrapped up in a sinful, mortal body. A Christian will struggle with sin, but from a different perspective (,not least, access to info about what the battle is about)

    Then a slight shift (monumental in some ways but slight because the main thing: coming to know God has already occurred):

    - the slight problem of our being mortal, resolved.

    - race run against sin in life is over. No sin around anymore. Not in me, not in anyway else. No more passwords to remember, wahayy!


  • #161
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Life is your opportunity to be rehabilitated. A.k.a born again.

    Ain't no rehabilitation like being recreated.

    Pretty sure reincarnation is not a christian belief, unless they have changed their minds with that respect also.


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  • #162
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Pretty sure reincarnation is not a christian belief, unless they have changed their minds with that respect also.

    I suppose there are shades to the meaning of reincarnation. There isn't much controversy about Christians being reborn.


  • #163
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    nthclare wrote: »
    That's the Abrahamic God, in my humble opinion Jesus supposedly wanted people to put their trust in a loving God and change everything.

    The trouble about this pick and mix approach, is that Jesus's Father was the Abrahamic God. Jesus talked to him, he quoted him, they loved each other.


    The debate is still out on that one.
    I won't say here what I think of the old testament God because it wouldn't be appropriate, and I'll get banned.

    Greg Boyd is worth a listen on this thorny issue. Interesting approach, given Jesus saying," if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

    His theory is that Old Testment passage such as those indicating God directing genocide are projections of a formerly pagan people (the Israelites). They were pulled from paganism but brought with them the typical model of God of peoples of that time: warlike and cruel and in need of appeasing.

    Given Christians carry with them the ways of their former sinful selfs, this idea isn't such a stretch. God in my life doesn't mean I about turn from my former ways. Indeed, I know many born again Christians who struggle with the idea that God isn't frowning down on them and their sinful behaviours. A forgiving God who loves us despite our sin (just as we love our kids despite their childish lies and deceptions) is a hard concept to live by. Why any easier for the people then??


  • #164
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    monara wrote: »
    I am at a loss to know when I showed any disrespect to any reigious belief. If you are referring to the post concerning my faith in Atheism being shaken, I would have thought it obvious from the context that this was irony and certainly not intended as in any way disrespectful. Your reaction was OTT while your parsing of the meaning of my use of a capital letter in the word Atheism was frankly ludicrous and would have the general result of inhibiting reasoned comments on this and other sites.

    My apologies to any athiests who may have been offended by my attempt at irony. I admire Atheism as a belief system and my experience of atheists in life and on the Board forums has always been positive. With all due respect to your grammatical expertise I will continue to use a capital letter in the word Atheism as a mark of respect to those who follow that belief system.

    Mod: Carded for ignoring mod instruction (replies to warning in feedback thread) and breach of charter (discussing moderation decisions in a thread).

    Please feel to start a discussion on your opinion that atheism is a belief system and deserving of being capitalised as a word in the same sense as a religion, though such a discussion might be better placed on the A&A forum.

    Please take a moment to read and understand the charter before posting again. Do not respond to this post in this thread. Thanks for your attention.


  • #165
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭santana75


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    So instead of trying to rehabilitate them, it turns out that God is a big fan of the death penalty.

    Interesting. He sounds like a joy.

    But what you've hit on there is exactly what happened in the Garden of eden. God told adam and eve not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, yet that's exactly what they did. God asks us to do things, to trust him because he has our best Interests at heart. God created us and so he knows us better than we know ourselves. But theres a pride at work In humanity where people think they know better than the one who created them. So when you say God should've rehabilitated the people of sodom and gomorrah that's to assume you know better than God. God knew all those people intimately because he created them, if there was a chance for rehabilitation dont you think he'd have taken it? In fact in the lead up to the destruction of these two towns God asked Lot to find him even a few righteous men among them all and if Lot could do this then he would spare them. But no such people could be found. To say that God should've done this or that is to put your thinking and ways above the one who created you and thats pride. Pride is the original sin, its where all the trouble of humanity came from.


  • #166
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    santana75 wrote: »
    But what you've hit on there is exactly what happened in the Garden of eden. God told adam and eve not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, yet that's exactly what they did. God asks us to do things, to trust him because he has our best Interests at heart. God created us and so he knows us better than we know ourselves. But theres a pride at work In humanity where people think they know better than the one who created them. So when you say God should've rehabilitated the people of sodom and gomorrah that's to assume you know better than God. God knew all those people intimately because he created them, if there was a chance for rehabilitation dont you think he'd have taken it? In fact in the lead up to the destruction of these two towns God asked Lot to find him even a few righteous men among them all and if Lot could do this then he would spare them. But no such people could be found. To say that God should've done this or that is to put your thinking and ways above the one who created you and thats pride. Pride is the original sin, its where all the trouble of humanity came from.

    I think using "God knows best and we simply don't understand" as an answer to any question asking why God committed such and such atrocity on mankind is a cop out. I'd expect that kind of rhetoric in North Korea. It's clear that people have been reared to worship God without any self thinking into why we should.


  • #167
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I think using "God knows best and we simply don't understand" as an answer to any question asking why God committed such and such atrocity on mankind is a cop out. I'd expect that kind of rhetoric in North Korea. It's clear that people have been reared to worship God without any self thinking into why we should.

    Hypothetically, if God exists and has attributes such as those Aquinas suggests, and is all knowing, all powerful, etc, why would you expect to fully understand God and what He does, given our limitations and limits on our perspective?


  • #168
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,755 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    santana75 wrote: »
    But what you've hit on there is exactly what happened in the Garden of eden. God told adam and eve not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, yet that's exactly what they did. God asks us to do things, to trust him because he has our best Interests at heart. God created us and so he knows us better than we know ourselves. But theres a pride at work In humanity where people think they know better than the one who created them. So when you say God should've rehabilitated the people of sodom and gomorrah that's to assume you know better than God. God knew all those people intimately because he created them, if there was a chance for rehabilitation dont you think he'd have taken it? In fact in the lead up to the destruction of these two towns God asked Lot to find him even a few righteous men among them all and if Lot could do this then he would spare them. But no such people could be found. To say that God should've done this or that is to put your thinking and ways above the one who created you and thats pride. Pride is the original sin, its where all the trouble of humanity came from.

    So why didn't God strike the likes of Hitler down then? If being so evil meant he killed all those people before giving them a chance to repent.

    And of course he did a world wide judgment when he killed everyone in the flood.

    How do they adhere to the free will argument?


  • #169
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Hypothetically, if God exists and has attributes such as those Aquinas suggests, and is all knowing, all powerful, etc, why would you expect to fully understand God and what He does, given our limitations and limits on our perspective?

    I wouldn't say it rules out the possibility of a God per se, but it does beg the question as to why someone chooses to follow religion A and not religion B if you can also use that argument for anything you "don't get" about religion B?


  • #170
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭santana75


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So why didn't God strike the likes of Hitler down then? If being so evil meant he killed all those people before giving them a chance to repent.

    And of course he did a world wide judgment when he killed everyone in the flood.

    How do they adhere to the free will argument?

    It was only a matter of time before someone brought the nazi's in......theres even a name for that. Goodwin's law I think it is


  • #171
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it rules out the possibility of a God per se, but it does beg the question as to why someone chooses to follow religion A and not religion B if you can also use that argument for anything you "don't get" about religion B?

    If you, on this earthly plane, were able to understand perfectly God and all His actions then that itself would rule out the existence of God.

    Note I am saying that we cannot understand everything about God, I didn't say we cant understand anything about God. If we couldn't understand anything about God then I would agree, it would be hard to pick between, say, Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. But we do understand many things about God, not least Jesus ! Which of course changes everything.


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  • #172
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    If you, on this earthly plane, were able to understand perfectly God and all His actions then that itself would rule out the existence of God.

    Note I am saying that we cannot understand everything about God, I didn't say we cant understand anything about God. If we couldn't understand anything about God then I would agree, it would be hard to pick between, say, Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. But we do understand many things about God, not least Jesus ! Which of course changes everything.

    You seem to be saying that the religion you should pick is the one where you have to invoke the "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule the least? How does that work? And why do you think that God works like that? Why is the correct religion not instead the one where you have to invoke that rule the most?


  • #173
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Pretty sure reincarnation is not a christian belief, unless they have changed their minds with that respect also.

    You need to read jesus words in John's gospel chapter 3.
    No one mentioned reincarnation.


  • #174
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You seem to be saying that the religion you should pick is the one where you have to invoke the "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule the least? How does that work? And why do you think that God works like that? Why is the correct religion not instead the one where you have to invoke that rule the most?

    No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying you should pick the one with Jesus, God incarnate. lol

    See here: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm


  • #175
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying you should pick the one with Jesus, God incarnate. lol

    See here: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm

    I don't understand how you've answered my original question then? Why should we pick the one with Jesus over the others?


  • #176
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I don't understand how you've answered my original question then? Why should we pick the one with Jesus over the others?

    Because of revelation, the link explains it


  • #177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Because of revelation, the link explains it

    I read the link and it didn't explain it to me. Can you explain it in your own words?


  • #178
    happyoutscan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    It's 2020 and people still blindly brainwashed with nonsense. Unbelievable.


  • #179
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Because of revelation, the link explains it

    My question was "why should someone choose to follow religion A and not religion B if you can also use that argument for anything you "don't get" about religion B?" A response of "this is how the scripture of religion A explains it" doesn't answer my question.


  • #180
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Yes the possibility of a [ Christian ] God is a scary thought especially to a Christian which has relented his authority and transgressed his decrees.
    A Christian knows failure to strictly adhere to his expected standards will not might, but will definitely result in eternal suffering as a consequence.
    This is according to the Christian teaching wholly based upon the Bible. Though Jesus did say to look within.


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  • #181
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    My question was "why should someone choose to follow religion A and not religion B if you can also use that argument for anything you "don't get" about religion B?" A response of "this is how the scripture of religion A explains it" doesn't answer my question.

    If I cant point to scripture or the teachings of a religion as an argument as to why to pick or believe a religion then I am at a loss tbh

    God revealed himself in the form of His incarnation as Jesus Christ. He literally made himself man and came down to earth to spread his message. He then raised himself from the dead (just in case his other miracles, utterances and actions didn't make it clear enough) and then ascended back into heaven and in the process redeemed man.

    Atheists often say that if God existed he would give us some sign. If you want to talk about signs, well, the incarnation is as obvious as you can get! Talk about a mallet to the head!

    Just because we dont fully understand God and all His actions it doesn't mean we dont know God. He revealed himself to us.


  • #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    If I cant point to scripture or the teachings of a religion as an argument as to why to pick or believe a religion then I am at a loss tbh

    My point is that you can theorise an infinite number of different religions where you don't need to invoke a "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule. So why not choose to believe one of those instead of a religion that relies on that rule? How have you ruled out all of those religions before settling on this less plausible religion?


  • #183
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    My point is that you can theorise an infinite number of different religions where you don't need to invoke a "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule. So why not choose to believe one of those instead of a religion that relies on that rule? How have you ruled out all of those religions before settling on this less plausible religion?

    It is impossible to fully comprehend and understand all of the actions of God, something which is all powerful, all knowing etc (see again Aquinas description of the characteristics of God). Something which is not "a being" but rather, "is".

    If a religion claims to have a "God" that is 100% understood by man in its nature and actions then this "God" cannot have the characteristics and attributes of God, and this religion is false.


  • #184
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    happyoutscan wrote: »
    It's 2020 and people still blindly brainwashed with nonsense. Unbelievable.

    You mean people aren't brainwashed by nonsense these days? Trump for President? Carry On Consuming?

    What do you think the advertising industry is about?


  • #185
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    It is impossible to fully comprehend and understand all of the actions of God, something which is all powerful, all knowing etc (see again Aquinas description of the characteristics of God). Something which is not "a being" but rather, "is".

    If a religion claims to have a "God" that is 100% understood by man in its nature and actions then this "God" cannot have the characteristics and attributes of God, and this religion is false.

    If God simply simply caused the Big Bang to happen and nothing more, then I can still believe that there is a God without relying on a "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule to understand his moral judgement.

    Likewise, if God simply created life on Earth but does not look over that life nor judges that life, then we also do not need invoke this rule to explain his morality. Why not believe in one of these (or one of the infinite similar religions) instead of a religion where you need to invoke this rule to understand why such a God would create child cancer etc.?
    John Hutton wrote: »
    If I cant point to scripture or the teachings of a religion as an argument as to why to pick or believe a religion then I am at a loss tbh

    Also I never picked up on this point. Why is that true for you? Let's say I theorised a new religion today, e.g. the one above where a God only creates universes but doesn't observe them, and that religion makes perfect sense and clicks to you. (Not saying it does or that it's a new religion, but this is just a simple example.) Why not believe that religion that makes total sense to you? Why choose a religion that makes less sense to you just because it has scripture associated with it?


  • #186
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    auspicious wrote: »
    A Christian knows failure to strictly adhere to his expected standards will not might, but will definitely result in eternal suffering as a consequence.

    Again, such a nice guy. Definitely deserves unquestionable worship. Our supreme leader.


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  • #187
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    auspicious wrote: »
    Yes the possibility of a [ Christian ] God is a scary thought especially to a Christian which has relented his authority and transgressed his decrees.
    A Christian knows failure to strictly adhere to his expected standards will not might, but will definitely result in eternal suffering as a consequence.
    This is according to the Christian teaching wholly based upon the Bible. Though Jesus did say to look within.

    Definitely not the God I've known for over 35 years.
    One of overflowing loving-kindness and patience and faith.


  • #188
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Atheists often say that if God existed he would give us some sign. If you want to talk about signs, well, the incarnation is as obvious as you can get! Talk about a mallet to the head!

    Sorry, but just because something happens in a book doesn't mean it's real. Otherwise I'd be off to Hogwarts. Calling out atheists and saying "here's your proof, it says it in this Christian book" is a ridiculous thing to say.


  • #189
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    happyoutscan wrote: »
    It's 2020 and people still blindly brainwashed with nonsense. Unbelievable.

    Mod: Carded for breach of charter. This is not a forum where you can openly mock the faith of others. Please take time to read and understand the charter before posting here again. Thanks for your attention.


  • #190
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Sorry, but just because something happens in a book doesn't mean it's real. Otherwise I'd be off to Hogwarts. Calling out atheists and saying "here's your proof, it says it in this Christian book" is a ridiculous thing to say.

    Mod warning: I consider comparison of comparison of the contents of the bible and Hogwarts (i.e. children's fantasy) to be mocking of the Christian faith. Please be more considerate to the beliefs of others posting on this forum and frame your posts accordingly. All and any feedback to the feedback thread or via PM please. Do not respond in thread. Thanks for your attention.


  • #191
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,755 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    santana75 wrote: »
    It was only a matter of time before someone brought the nazi's in......theres even a name for that. Goodwin's law I think it is

    Change Hitler for Stalin. Or take people out of it altogether and talk about cancer or floods, earthquakes.

    The point, which of course you ignored, remains the same.

    We are supposed to simultaneously believe that free will means God cannot intervene, yet accept that God needs to intervene when people get too evil and he is perfectly reasonable to do so.

    How do you square that circle?


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  • #192
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Change Hitler for Stalin. Or take people out of it altogether and talk about cancer or floods, earthquakes.

    The point, which of course you ignored, remains the same.

    We are supposed to simultaneously believe that free will means God cannot intervene, yet accept that God needs to intervene when people get too evil and he is perfectly reasonable to do so.

    How do you square that circle?

    That circle can't be squared. And the people that believe in an all powerful and loving God without question aren't going to even try squaring it. They simply are going to ignore the bad stuff and don't care.


  • #193
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭santana75


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Sorry, but just because something happens in a book doesn't mean it's real. Otherwise I'd be off to Hogwarts. Calling out atheists and saying "here's your proof, it says it in this Christian book" is a ridiculous thing to say.

    But have you read this book? I'd guess you haven't, but yet you're commenting on a book you haven't actually read for yourself. Which makes no sense. If you would just take the time to sit down and read the Bible, with an open heart and mind, I guarantee you'll get answers to a lot of the questions you have about God.


  • #194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    santana75 wrote: »
    But have you read this book? I'd guess you haven't, but yet you're commenting on a book you haven't actually read for yourself. Which makes no sense. If you would just take the time to sit down and read the Bible, with an open heart and mind, I guarantee you'll get answers to a lot of the questions you have about God.

    I've read the Bible, and Christianity made more sense to me when I only kinda sorta knew about it then when I fully knew about it. So your guarantees and false assumptions mean nothing.


  • #195
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    santana75 wrote: »
    But have you read this book? I'd guess you haven't, but yet you're commenting on a book you haven't actually read for yourself. Which makes no sense. If you would just take the time to sit down and read the Bible, with an open heart and mind, I guarantee you'll get answers to a lot of the questions you have about God.

    What makes you think I havent? Very presumptive of you. Are you omnipresent too?

    I have read it and it's certainly a nice story. I can see why people would like to believe its real.


  • #196
    santana75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭santana75


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I've read the Bible, and Christianity made more sense to me when I only kinda sorta knew about it then when I fully knew about it. So your guarantees and false assumptions mean nothing.

    But do you "Read" the bible? As in an active verb, daily, meditation on the word of God. When Joshua succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites God said this to him:
    "Study this book of instruction continually, meditate on it night and day so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in everything you do"
    (Joshua 1:8)
    God said to study his word continually, to have it on our minds night and day. He didnt say, read it once and then forget about it. The bible is alive, its the only book every written that becomes more alive the more you read it and committ to absorbing its messages. It's even more than that though.....have you seen the matrix? The bible is literally "The red pill". It removes scales from eyes and let's people see the truth about themselves, others and life. This is what it says in 2 Corinthians 3:16
    "Whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is spirit for wherever the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the Glory of the Lord"

    Do you see what that means? This is an amazing verse of scripture. Its saying that when you turn to God and read his word, the veil that has been placed over your eyes so to speak, is removed. Which means that the word of God takes away spiritual blindness. Reading the bible is an every day occurrence, its something that when you read it regularly it will get inside of you and transform you from the inside out. So I would implore you to read the bible again and to keep doing so every day of your time here on earth.


  • #197
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    santana75 wrote: »
    But do you "Read" the bible? As in an active verb, daily, meditation on the word of God. When Joshua succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites God said this to him:
    "Study this book of instruction continually, meditate on it night and day so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in everything you do"
    (Joshua 1:8)
    God said to study his word continually, to have it on our minds night and day. He didnt say, read it once and then forget about it. The bible is alive, its the only book every written that becomes more alive the more you read it and committ to absorbing its messages. It's even more than that though.....have you seen the matrix? The bible is literally "The red pill". It removes scales from eyes and let's people see the truth about themselves, others and life. This is what it says in 2 Corinthians 3:16
    "Whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is spirit for wherever the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the Glory of the Lord"

    Do you see what that means? This is an amazing verse of scripture. Its saying that when you turn to God and read his word, the veil that has been placed over your eyes so to speak, is removed. Which means that the word of God takes away spiritual blindness. Reading the bible is an every day occurrence, its something that when you read it regularly it will get inside of you and transform you from the inside out. So I would implore you to read the bible again and to keep doing so every day of your time here on earth.

    It's nice that you believe every word. But a lot of people prefer critical thinking rather than taking everything they read as gospel (no pun intended).


  • #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    santana75 wrote: »
    But do you "Read" the bible? As in an active verb, daily, meditation on the word of God. When Joshua succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites God said this to him:
    "Study this book of instruction continually, meditate on it night and day so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in everything you do"
    (Joshua 1:8)
    God said to study his word continually, to have it on our minds night and day. He didnt say, read it once and then forget about it. The bible is alive, its the only book every written that becomes more alive the more you read it and committ to absorbing its messages. It's even more than that though.....have you seen the matrix? The bible is literally "The red pill". It removes scales from eyes and let's people see the truth about themselves, others and life. This is what it says in 2 Corinthians 3:16
    "Whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is spirit for wherever the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the Glory of the Lord"

    Do you see what that means? This is an amazing verse of scripture. Its saying that when you turn to God and read his word, the veil that has been placed over your eyes so to speak, is removed. Which means that the word of God takes away spiritual blindness. Reading the bible is an every day occurrence, its something that when you read it regularly it will get inside of you and transform you from the inside out. So I would implore you to read the bible again and to keep doing so every day of your time here on earth.

    Just because you think that the passages of the Bible are nice and interesting doesn't make them factual. I wouldn't try to use quotes from the Bible as reasons as to why Christianity is correct when having discussions with non-Christians as it just makes non-Christians (and even some Christians) cringe.


  • #199
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,755 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    santana75 wrote: »
    But do you "Read" the bible? As in an active verb, daily, meditation on the word of God. When Joshua succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites God said this to him:
    "Study this book of instruction continually, meditate on it night and day so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in everything you do"
    (Joshua 1:8)
    God said to study his word continually, to have it on our minds night and day. He didnt say, read it once and then forget about it. The bible is alive, its the only book every written that becomes more alive the more you read it and committ to absorbing its messages. It's even more than that though.....have you seen the matrix? The bible is literally "The red pill". It removes scales from eyes and let's people see the truth about themselves, others and life. This is what it says in 2 Corinthians 3:16
    "Whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is spirit for wherever the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the Glory of the Lord"

    Do you see what that means? This is an amazing verse of scripture. Its saying that when you turn to God and read his word, the veil that has been placed over your eyes so to speak, is removed. Which means that the word of God takes away spiritual blindness. Reading the bible is an every day occurrence, its something that when you read it regularly it will get inside of you and transform you from the inside out. So I would implore you to read the bible again and to keep doing so every day of your time here on earth.

    There is plenty of disagreement within religions about the meaning of certain parts of the bible. There are numerous variants of the Christian faith, are you of the opinion that they didn't really read the bible.

    It seems massively condescending to claim that anyone that disagrees with your POV simply hasn't tried hard enough.


  • #200
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    There is a lot different way to interpret the OT. Some Protestant groups believe that every word is literal and the word of God, whereas other Christians believe that much of it is metaphorical, and it is the meaning behind the words which is important. Bishop Barron, in the video I posted earlier about violence in the Bible, covers this well.


  • #201
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If God simply simply caused the Big Bang to happen and nothing more, then I can still believe that there is a God without relying on a "we should only expect God to understand why that is" rule to understand his moral judgement.

    Likewise, if God simply created life on Earth but does not look over that life nor judges that life, then we also do not need invoke this rule to explain his morality. Why not believe in one of these (or one of the infinite similar religions) instead of a religion where you need to invoke this rule to understand why such a God would create child cancer etc.?

    Also I never picked up on this point. Why is that true for you? Let's say I theorised a new religion today, e.g. the one above where a God only creates universes but doesn't observe them, and that religion makes perfect sense and clicks to you. (Not saying it does or that it's a new religion, but this is just a simple example.) Why not believe that religion that makes total sense to you? Why choose a religion that makes less sense to you just because it has scripture associated with it?
    Catholicism does make sense to me, I don't understand why the fact we don't understand everything makes you believe it is false. I also believe in objective truths, and not just believing something because it sounds good to me, or I like it.

    If God is all powerful and all knowing, he can only be understood by man via what He reveals to us. I refer you again to the section on revelation in the Catholic Catechism. The whole Bible is a gradual and incremental "roll out" of revelation where God is making himself understood to man in ways which man can understand, culminating in Jesus Christ.

    When you are a small child, our parents (should we have good ones) will often do things in our best interest which seem bad to our childish minds, or incomprehensible. Such as make us go to bed, or not allow us to only eat sweets. Given that the gulf in perspective and knowledge between man and God is far greater than the gulf between the child and adult mind, it is perfectly logical, and inevitable, that we will not be able to understand everything 100%. That doesn't mean we should not try to of course, searching for God is natural and good.

    Through the Bible, and the NT in particular, as well as the magesterium, we understand a great deal about God and why things happen - just because mysteries remain it does not mean it does not make sense, especially when we know why such things are a mystery!


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