College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

wakka12 · 21-10-2018 10:10pm

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses
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cgcsb · 22-10-2018 11:32am

wakka12 wrote: »

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses

Cool image. What proposal is that from? (there've been hundereds).

I think the key problem is timing. A north quays car ban should've been implemented 2 years ago along with removal of car spaces

Hurrache · 22-10-2018 2:44pm

It looks good but the steps would be a non runner due to the tide, they'd become a green slip'n'slide before long unless they were cleaned regularly.

monument · 24-10-2018 10:25am

A lot of the details in the An Bord Pleanála planning inspector’s report‪ and the suporting traffic and transport report are highly flawed based on old-school car thinking in denial of modal shift.

For example:

“There are a number of traffic management schemes listed in the EIAR, but no new road space appears to be envisaged. Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision. I particularly note that in Section 2.5.5 of the NTA Report relating to the Core Radial Bus Network, reductions in road capacity within the model were predicted in areas where full bus priority could not be accommodated in reality. It is also difficult to reconcile the current (2018) accelerated house building activity with no major road infrastructure plans, given the predominance of houses being built in locations which are largely dependent on road transport.”

And a clear lack of understanding of both induced demand and traffic evaporation:

“The M50 was expanded to cater for existing congestion and provide for further traffic growth. The term ‘traffic evaporation’ was referred to on a number of occasions at the Hearing. While it is questionable if the concept of traffic evaporation is strictly appropriate in the case of College Green, the M50 is a prime candidate for the inverse effect, namely causing or facilitating ‘induced demand’…”

More: http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/23/college-green-plaza-planners-were-wrong-and-their-thinking-would-stop-liveable-cities/

cgcsb · 24-10-2018 10:29am

Hurrache wrote: »

It looks good but the steps would be a non runner due to the tide, they'd become a green slip'n'slide before long unless they were cleaned regularly.

Ah maintenance, Dublin's downfall. I'm still waiting for DCC to clear the grass growing on James Joyce Bridge.

CatInABox · 24-10-2018 11:29am

monument wrote: »

A lot of the details in the An Bord Pleanála planning inspector’s report‪ and the suporting traffic and transport report are highly flawed based on old-school car thinking in denial of modal shift.

For example:

“There are a number of traffic management schemes listed in the EIAR, but no new road space appears to be envisaged. Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision. I particularly note that in Section 2.5.5 of the NTA Report relating to the Core Radial Bus Network, reductions in road capacity within the model were predicted in areas where full bus priority could not be accommodated in reality. It is also difficult to reconcile the current (2018) accelerated house building activity with no major road infrastructure plans, given the predominance of houses being built in locations which are largely dependent on road transport.”

And a clear lack of understanding of both induced demand and traffic evaporation:

“The M50 was expanded to cater for existing congestion and provide for further traffic growth. The term ‘traffic evaporation’ was referred to on a number of occasions at the Hearing. While it is questionable if the concept of traffic evaporation is strictly appropriate in the case of College Green, the M50 is a prime candidate for the inverse effect, namely causing or facilitating ‘induced demand’…”

More: http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/23/college-green-plaza-planners-were-wrong-and-their-thinking-would-stop-liveable-cities/

Jesus fecking Christ, are they serious???? MORE ROAD SPACE???? IN THE CITY CENTRE?????? WHERE????

Seriously, do they think that they could just CPO Trinity and build a motorway through it?

ARGH!!!!!

hmmm · 24-10-2018 9:20pm

"Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision."

Can someone with planning knowledge explain this to the layman? If the roads are chock-a-block, and you choose to buy somewhere where you think you will need a car to cross the canal, why is this anyone else's problem but yours and why do we need to plan for this stupidity?

If as a city we make it clear that no more roads will be provided, wouldn't that drive purchasers of such property to make sure that they can meet their transport needs using public transport, before buying?

prinzeugen · 24-10-2018 9:59pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

Zipppy · 25-10-2018 6:36pm

prinzeugen wrote:

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

hollow?

wakka12 · 25-10-2018 6:43pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

Yes it would cost millions and millions but it would be worth it, similar projects undertaken all over the world

Brian CivilEng · 25-10-2018 8:21pm

A barrage across the mouth of the Liffey to prevent it becoming tidal would be needed. Could be a good opportunity for flood prevention too.

wakka12 · 25-10-2018 11:04pm

Seine 2017 vs 2018

Watersides are for humans not cars..just look at it teaming with life, amazing.

cgcsb · 26-10-2018 9:22am

wakka12 wrote: »

Seine 2017 vs 2018

Watersides are for humans not cars..just look at it teaming with life, amazing.

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

Hurrache · 26-10-2018 10:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

I think that's the road in Paris that the court ruled this week to ban all traffic and leave the road to pedestrians and cyclists. A car ban, in tandem with the Liffey cycleway way, would go a long way.

Chris_5339762 · 26-10-2018 3:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

The boardwalk is already junkie central. We'd need to do something about that element of society which would take over the area if we did it. But ideally yes, something like that should be done. Bus only (no taxis) on a 2-way south quays perhaps with the north quays pedestrianised?

prinzeugen · 27-10-2018 12:45am

Zipppy wrote: »

hollow?

From what I understand, most of the North quays is built on brick arches or concrete stilts depending on how close to the sea you are.

Those arches are full of water or hollow. I did see one old map which suggests that "dry land" begins at about where the spire is on O' Connell St. Everything from there towards the Liffey is reclaimed or built on arches.

Smiles35 · 27-10-2018 3:01pm

Doesn't look like this is going ahead. People have allways seemed to enjoy driving full pelt down that strech anyway.

AlekSmart · 01-11-2018 10:16pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The boardwalk is already junkie central. We'd need to do something about that element of society which would take over the area if we did it. But ideally yes, something like that should be done. Bus only (no taxis) on a 2-way south quays perhaps with the north quays pedestrianised?

It'll be grand....although Traffic is perhaps NOT the most pressing of issues surrounding ANY attempt to gentrify,or even civilize this area of Dubblin town ?

Justice Peter Charleton may well have a better understanding of the core issues than Owen Keegan or the many other "stakeholders"....

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/invisible-police-force-crying-out-for-leadership-says-charleton-37411415.html

One of the major criticisms he made was that gardaí are not visible on our streets.

He said this was in contrast to other major cities, such as Rome, London and Athens, where police are visible at intersections, at junctions and in public plazas and squares.

"The extraordinary aspect of our police force is that they keep themselves isolated in police stations and then transport themselves around in squad cars," he said.

"It is extraordinarily rare that gardaí are seen in uniform on the streets."

The judge said the failure to police cycle lanes was indicative of this lack of visibility.

"Cars block cycle lanes, intrude on them and endanger cyclists. That happens repeatedly within a minute's walk of Garda stations. So, where are the gardaí? Again, this may be dismissed as a small example, but the consequences of serious injury, for even one person, is a tragedy," he said.

He ain't far wrong,izzy ?

JohnC. · 02-12-2018 11:10am

60% want College Green pedestrianised. Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

celtcia · 03-12-2018 9:06am

JohnC. wrote: »

Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

More paid advertising by DCC where does this show up in their annual budget? Hope they don't let history repeat itself...

cgcsb · 03-12-2018 10:18am

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

celtcia · 03-12-2018 10:28am

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

The Green Party should move their offices from Suffolk St... Hint Hint...

If the Buses where allowed back to Green HQ maybe College Green would not have failed...

The Green Party in Ireland support unsafe cycling lanes, less bicycle spaces and no grass at College Green.

Green in name only when will they be Green again?

n!ghtmancometh · 03-12-2018 11:05am

JohnC. wrote: »

60% want College Green pedestrianised. Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

How many of those 60% are solely reliant on the bus to commute from outer suburbs with no alternative transport, and would be massively negatively impacted by the pedestrianised CG?

If CG is to be pedestrianised, then all private traffic must be banned from the quays. Its completely unfair to just shunt routes like 13/40/27 down the already traffic choked quays and expect commuters from outer suburbs (who pay the same fares as their well heeled green line social betters) to grin and bear it.

cgcsb · 03-12-2018 11:05am

Suffolk st is an infinitely superior pedestrian experience. It use to be a horrific wall of yellow double decker with completely unsafe numbers of pedestrians. ABP didn't have a problem with pedestrian saftey back then.

cgcsb · 03-12-2018 11:07am

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

How many of those 60% are solely reliant on the bus to commute from outer suburbs with no alternative transport, and would be massively negatively impacted by the pedestrianised CG?

If CG is to be pedestrianised, then all private traffic must be banned from the quays. Its completely unfair to just shunt routes like 13/40/27 down the already traffic choked quays and expect commuters from outer suburbs (who pay the same fares as their well heeled green line social betters) to grin and bear it.

There'll be a car ban on the quays. You can step down from defcon 1 on your class warfare path.

Muahahaha · 03-12-2018 9:25pm

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

CatInABox · 03-12-2018 9:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

Figured this would be the case, it's the cheapest and easiest route. It's also the right route to take, everything else gets quite complicated. I do wonder how they're going to fix the parts that ABP disagreed with though, not sure how you fix the fact that ABP doesn't believe in modern traffic management principles.

Last Stop · 03-12-2018 10:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

100% agree with this.

The ideal thing to do now would be to build the Lucan Luas and connect it to Luas Cross City at College Green.
This would create the "excuse" to move all the traffic to the BOI side and create a plaza in front of Abercrombie etc.

A 5m wide lane in each direction would provide for safe cycling while also reducing the number of pedestrian crossings to 1.

If you provide a Luas stop at George's St. you still have the option of running trams to there as well as a loop to/from Broomsbridge (unlike presently) if you wanted to close College Green fully for a concert etc. This would also create a light rail NETWORK where all light rail services interlink with each other through the one way cross city loop. This would give Dublin a great central connection similar to the Chicago Loop, including the metro stop on the northern part of O'Connell.

To me the biggest issue around College Green isn't the traffic but the way it flows (or doesn't). If you moved it all to one side, moving the bus stops slightly further west down Dame st, everything moves though the bottleneck rather than stopping right in the middle of it as presently. I could never understand the attraction of a full pedestrianisation as it removes on the most important E-W routes in the city and there's not a lot of retail potential on the BOI side anyway. Sure it's a nice looking building but in terms of potential, its pretty limited.

Additionally, I would divert all buses that use Hawkins street to College Green; down Poolbeg st. onto a new contraflow lane on Tara st. and back onto Pearse st, freeing up the junction for trams. In an ideal world, all the Garda cars on Pearse st. would park in an underground car park as part of the Apollo/ Hawkins house redevelopment but alas I think we missed the boat on that one.

celtcia · 04-12-2018 3:24am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

Why the team should be REPLACED...

There where so many holes in the application...

Basically they needed a micro model...
Did anyone actually read the report?

AlekSmart · 04-12-2018 7:15am

Last Stop wrote: »

100% agree with this.

The ideal thing to do now would be to build the Lucan Luas and connect it to Luas Cross City at College Green.
This would create the "excuse" to move all the traffic to the BOI side and create a plaza in front of Abercrombie etc.

A 5m wide lane in each direction would provide for safe cycling while also reducing the number of pedestrian crossings to 1.

If you provide a Luas stop at George's St. you still have the option of running trams to there as well as a loop to/from Broomsbridge (unlike presently) if you wanted to close College Green fully for a concert etc. This would also create a light rail NETWORK where all light rail services interlink with each other through the one way cross city loop. This would give Dublin a great central connection similar to the Chicago Loop, including the metro stop on the northern part of O'Connell.

To me the biggest issue around College Green isn't the traffic but the way it flows (or doesn't). If you moved it all to one side, moving the bus stops slightly further west down Dame st, everything moves though the bottleneck rather than stopping right in the middle of it as presently. I could never understand the attraction of a full pedestrianisation as it removes on the most important E-W routes in the city and there's not a lot of retail potential on the BOI side anyway. Sure it's a nice looking building but in terms of potential, its pretty limited.

Additionally, I would divert all buses that use Hawkins street to College Green; down Poolbeg st. onto a new contraflow lane on Tara st. and back onto Pearse st, freeing up the junction for trams. In an ideal world, all the Garda cars on Pearse st. would park in an underground car park as part of the Apollo/ Hawkins house redevelopment but alas I think we missed the boat on that one.

Evidence of the "Missed Boat" principles which guide Dublin's planners can be found daily in the environs of "The Criminal Courts of Justice" building on Parkgate Street....."Official Vehicles" littering the pavement and fast becoming as "Traditional" as a Ginger haired coleen on a John Hinde postcard !!

"Underground Car Park ....oh yea..they have dem out forren don't dey ??" :rolleyes:

Neworder79 · 04-12-2018 4:09pm

Was any consideration given to building a cun-n-cover cycling underpass from Westmoreland St to Dame St under the new plaza? There may be concerns about archiology and antisocial behaviou but it's a relativly short tunnel and work really well in other cities.

It would be far safer for cyclists and remove some of the transport complexity dogging the plan above ground with converging Luas / Bus / Road interchange.

Shedite27 · 04-12-2018 5:51pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

Was any consideration given to building a cun-n-cover cycling underpass from Westmoreland St to Dame St under the new plaza? There may be concerns about archiology and antisocial behaviou but it's a relativly short tunnel and work really well in other cities.

It would be far safer for cyclists and remove some of the transport complexity dogging the plan above ground with converging Luas / Bus / Road interchange.

My only cut and cover experience in Dublin was the Tallaght/M50 roundabout, widely considered to have the most punctures per meter in the entire country. Like cycling across a sea of glass.

Neworder79 · 05-12-2018 12:39pm

One bad suburban example, obviously neglected by council, should that set the bar on our vision?

We have an abundance of underground carparks without issue, a well designed and managed cycle way should not be a challenge. It could include modern bike parking station like the Netherlands, and link the plaza to proposed Tara St public transport interchange with some vision.

https://youtu.be/C4INWKWlPkk?t=14

I've used many busy urban underpass tunnels at Elephant and Castle London, Chicago, Australia and on some of our greenways without issue...but if a cycle underpass scares us no wonder we cant build a metro.

cgcsb · 05-12-2018 1:21pm

What is the advantage of underground cycle way as opposed to surface in this area, where the only competing road users are pedestrians? Surely this will add arms and legs to costs?

Re Tara st, 100% agree, there was a Celtic Tiger era plan to regenerate the block occupied by Hawkins/Apollo house and in doing so creating a new pedestrian street linking college street to tara st. Current plans for Apollo House seem to lack that vision.

celtcia · 05-12-2018 1:37pm

cgcsb wrote: »

What is the advantage of underground cycle way as opposed to surface in this area, where the only competing road users are pedestrians? Surely this will add arms and legs to costs?

Re Tara st, 100% agree, there was a Celtic Tiger era plan to regenerate the block occupied by Hawkins/Apollo house and in doing so creating a new pedestrian street linking college street to tara st. Current plans for Apollo House seem to lack that vision.

Many Celtic Tiger hidden dragon plans...

Not offical hot or not?
This is not going to be smooth sailing again...

https://www.celtcia.com/blog/judgeme

cgcsb · 05-12-2018 1:42pm

I'd exclude taxis entirely. The NTA is moving towards introducing a core of 24hr routes. Taxi ranks should be near major suburban bus stops for onward journeys.

AlekSmart · 05-12-2018 3:36pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd exclude taxis entirely. The NTA is moving towards introducing a core of 24hr routes. Taxi ranks should be near major suburban bus stops for onward journeys.

100% agree.

Given the size and layout of the City,Dublin,in the context of functional Public Transport,currently cannot sustain full accessibility for Taxis.

Given the numbers of single passenger,and empty "cruising" Taxis which circulate within the much restricted space of the City Centre,it is immediately and constantly apparent that they are significantly impeding the flow of High-Capicity Universally Available Public Transport.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/taxi-statistics/active-vehicle-licences/

Hackney Limousine Taxi. W/C Hack W/C Taxi Total

DUBLIN 34 514 9132 3 1124 10807

Given that NONE of this 10,807 strong fleet operates to any Schedule,Rota or officially overseen system,the chaos which results may not be that surprising after all.

REregulation of the current Taxi industry is one potential solution ?

celtcia · 05-12-2018 7:53pm

A,B or C option above?

The truth is they need 3-5 plans.

1. Temporary road traffic plan.
2. Plaza plan with option for extensions
3. Extended plan
4. Plaza plan with metro in...

monument · 06-12-2018 12:30am

Shedite27 wrote: »

My only cut and cover experience in Dublin was the Tallaght/M50 roundabout, widely considered to have the most punctures per meter in the entire country. Like cycling across a sea of glass.

Loads of people use it... are they just lucky?

monument · 06-12-2018 12:32am

celtcia wrote: »

Many Celtic Tiger hidden dragon plans...

Not offical hot or not?
This is not going to be smooth sailing again...

https://www.celtcia.com/blog/judgeme

Hi celtcia,

Can you please contact hello@boards.ie to see if you need to register as a company / group account. Please don’t post again.

— moderator

cgcsb · 06-12-2018 12:17pm

celtcia wrote: »

A,B or C option above?

The truth is they need 3-5 plans.

1. Temporary road traffic plan.
2. Plaza plan with option for extensions
3. Extended plan
4. Plaza plan with metro in...

1. The changes needn't be temporary, the reroute and construction can be done all at once.
2. Extend it where?
4. No metro station planned for the area.

Budawanny · 06-12-2018 12:31pm

monument wrote: »

Loads of people use it... are they just lucky?

Its been clear the last few times (before Halloween) I have gone through it going up to the resevoirs.
but when its bad its really bad.
still very handy.

celtcia · 07-12-2018 7:36am

cgcsb wrote: »

1. The changes needn't be temporary, the reroute and construction can be done all at once.
2. Extend it where?
4. No metro station planned for the area.

Food for thought...
Not from me...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jyMpXCEqWaY

CatInABox · 31-01-2019 12:22am

Apparently, there's a judicial review of An Bord Pleanála’s rejection is going to take place in the high court tomorrow. I was surprised that I hadn't heard more about Dublin City Council bringing ABP to court over it, as I was full sure that DCC had decided to amend the plans.

Turns out I remembered correctly, a third party is bring the review.

It's in the last paragraph of this Journal article.

celtcia · 31-01-2019 1:00am

CatInABox wrote: »

Apparently, there's a judicial review of An Bord Pleanála’s rejection is going to take place in the high court tomorrow. I was surprised that I hadn't heard more about Dublin City Council bringing ABP to court over it, as I was full sure that DCC had decided to amend the plans.

Turns out I remembered correctly, a third party is bring the review.

It's in the last paragraph of this Journal article.

The JOURNAL appears to be run by DCC when it suits pretty biased sometimes...

This 3rd party proxy potentially a heritage jake green based in Brexit Central...

This project was an absolute mess.
There's more going on than you can imagine...
The tip of the iceberg with the titanic...

Shedite27 · 31-01-2019 10:09am

Radio this morning said it's going pedestrian as a trial every Sunday in July this year

cgcsb · 31-01-2019 10:50am

Way too conservative. Should be pedestrianized immediately, ban cars from the quays to accommodate buses. Every Sunday inside the Grand Canal/North Circular road should be car free.

CatInABox · 31-01-2019 11:57am

celtcia wrote: »

The JOURNAL appears to be run by DCC when it suits pretty biased sometimes...

This 3rd party proxy potentially a heritage jake green based in Brexit Central...

This project was an absolute mess.
There's more going on than you can imagine...
The tip of the iceberg with the titanic...

Celtia, are you okay?

p_haugh · 31-01-2019 12:23pm

DCC are going to trial making Suffolk Street pedestrianised over the next few months.
Its been in limbo as to what was happening it for a few years now. They haven't even got rid of the bus stops, which haven't been used for the past 2 years at least.
Although it's pretty much pedestrianised in essence already, other than taxis using it to drop off passengers for grafton Street.

cgcsb · 31-01-2019 12:25pm

celtcia wrote: »

The JOURNAL appears to be run by DCC when it suits pretty biased sometimes...

This 3rd party proxy potentially a heritage jake green based in Brexit Central...

This project was an absolute mess.
There's more going on than you can imagine...
The tip of the iceberg with the titanic...

wtf?

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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